Could you post your whole decklist with sideboard, please?
btw., i think boaording out force of will against shardless is fine. In a grindy matchups (and by all definitions it is certanly against Shardless BUG) you don't want to disadvantage yourself because player with more value will win. Try to pyroblast their visions and/or JTMS, and keep decays against goyf. Dark confidant and sylvan library is MVP in this matchup, so do anything to protect your bob, it's so vital. If you untap with any of these, you are probably going to win.
controls
Hi. I'm new to Legacy and decided to start with Punishing Jund. I'm a decent modern Jund player and hoping some of that translates over.
I'm going to start by copying the 10th place deck at the latest SCG and then reworking it. I'm hoping to get in some practice before Seattle.
I'm wondering if anyone has any tips or nuances/tricks with the deck. Any tricks with Punishing Fire?
Thanks
Just be heads up about triggering your Fires. Don't be that guy tapping two Groves to get two Fires back when you also have a non-Grove Red source (I see this ALL the time and it drives me crazy).Originally Posted by sleeper
Overall I think its a pretty simple deck to play, just brush up your format knowledge so you know what to Thoughtseize, which sideboard cards are for which decks, etc.
Fire is significantly stronger in the matches versus Mentor though
Drives me crazy as well!
Remember fires trigger from all lifegain too (for your opp), that includes things like Batterskull connecting.
Also, if you suspect your opponent has surgical extraction after G1, don't attempt to return a fire with a single Grove unless it's absolutely necessary. Once you get a second grove you can trigger the fire and the second protects it against the extraction.
Really saucy trick here: If they Extirpate your P.Fire, you can still return it. Mana abilities (like Grove of the Burnwillows) don't get stopped by Split Second so you can actually trigger and pay for the P.Fire while the Extirpate is on the stack. Doesn't come up often, but when it does you'll be glad you knew.
I got 23rd/304 at Eternal Extravaganza 3 over the weekend.
List:
4 Deathrite
4 Bob
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Thoughtseize
2 Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana
1 Library
9 Fetchlands
2 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Groves
3 Wasteland
SB 2 Duress
SB 2 Surgical
SB 2 Cage
SB 2 Pyroblast
SB 2 Golgari Charm
SB 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB 1 Pernicous Deed
SB 1 Life from the Loam
SB 1 Trinisphere
I was expecting a fair-ish meta so I just jammed the 4th Fire in my maindeck flex slot. In the sideboard I tried a Deed instead of the usual Deluge. Otherwise basically the same 75 I've been playing for months.
Rounds:
Omni-Tell (1-2)
RUG Delver (2-0)
Death & Taxes (0-2)
GW Maverick (2-1)
Manaless Dredge (2-0)
Aggro Loam (2-1)
Storm (2-0)
RUG Delver (2-0)
Miracles (2-0)
Had some bad luck against D&T but absurdly good luck against Storm so I guess it evened out. I was expecting a bunch of Jund players to crawl out of the woodwork after the Dig banning but I surprisingly didn't see any others. Only change I would probably make is going back to 4 Decay instead of the Decay/Pulse split since I expect fewer zombie fish around moving forward.
Caleb Durward did an article and video series on Jund.
http://www.channelfireball.com/video...d-legacy-jund/
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...p-with-legacy/
I just got my Goyfs, so I'm going to be trying the deck out here in the future.
Thnx for sharing. I'm just ready with assembling the deck. Will be running some games with/against friends tonight.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Not entirely related to the thread, but I'm playing in a Vintage tournament today and lacking any other options, I converted my Jund deck to Vintage. I'll report back on how this trainwreck goes.
Eagerly awaiting that.Not entirely related to the thread, but I'm playing in a Vintage tournament today and lacking any other options, I converted my Jund deck to Vintage. I'll report back on how this trainwreck goes.
I'm looking into this deck for my legacy primary. Buddy of mine did well with it and I have most of the cards already from modern jund. It's this or rug delver.
There ended up only being 4 people who showed up for the tournament so we just did a round robin. I went 1-2. The last time I played vintage there were 3 shops players and a mentors deck, so I kinda tweaked my deck against those. In doing so I was ill prepared for all the Tinker > Blightsteel decks that came this time. All my game losses were to that, but I crushed the RUG Delver player. At one point I was rocking 2x Confidant and Sylvan Library and he couldn't keep up.
I've yet to be able to play my Legacy list though. Tournaments have kinda dropped off here recently. But I'm eager to hear how everyone else is doing.
Played a tourney today with my take on this deck. 34 people showed up, which was rather disappointing, but still. I'll start with my list, and then some explanations about choices I made.
Guys:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf /15
Spells:
3 Sensei's Divining Top (*1)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress (*2)
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil /22
Lands:
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland (*3.1)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta (*3.2)
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland /23
Sideboard:
3 Gaddock Teeg (*3.3)
2 Ethersworn Canonist (*3.4)
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
Explanations
*1: I am one of those guys who draws awkward hands if my deck is not 100% streamlined. I need 12+ one-drops to even remotely consistently have one in my opener, and I really feel in Legacy one cannot afford to do nothing on turn one. Normal Jund plays 4x Seize, 4x Deathrite as one-drops. That's not enough for me. And normal Jund plays 20+ two-drops. That's a bit on the heavy side. So I decided to replace Sylvan Library with Top, turning a two-drop into a one-drop. During the tourney I loved Top, apart from the fact that Revoker and Peedle turning it off can be somewhat upsetting...
*2: Same kind of argument as *1, adding yet another one-drop instead of a two-drop. But this one is more than just that. Hymn can be game changing, sure, but it can also be a nuisance. It asks a lot of your mana, it doesn't influence the board state, and on the draw it only comes online after your opponent has had two full turns to do sick stuff. That's usually too much. Hence no more Hymns, and in come 2x Duress (the third obviously turned into the third Top, since I just really like the card). Did I miss Hymn during this tourney? No, not really. Duress targeting and being cheap was very nice.
*3: Here's the biggest change. I decided that Jund is nicely placed in the meta. Especially Punishing. It has a good match against most of the fair decks and a chance against combo. If I can turn that chance against combo into a sort of 50/50-ish thing, I'll be very happy. So in comes white for hate bears. This means the mana base will either be all non-basic, or rediculously shaky, since I am unwilling to play less than 4x Grove + 4x PunFire (this is the reason Jund has a good match against most fair decks!). So I gambled on the all non-basic base. I decided to run just one white source, because none of the matchups where white is important actually put pressure on my mana base. Scrubland was the obvious choice, since black mana is the most important, red the least, and Savannah makes no sense since Teeg costs both those colours, so Badlands+Savannah provides all colours I play but then I cannot cast Teeg.
The bears on side are 3x Teeg + 2x Canonist. Both are awesome against Storm (and related combo), but both also have their merits in other matchups. Teeg stops Sneak Attack, Dread Return, Miracle spells, Jace, Zenith and Natural Order, OmniTell stuff and some other things that can matter. Canonist can buy us time against Elves (which should be all we need) and maybe also against Burn, but I must admit I decided to sort of ignore that matchup. So Teeg has more applications, which is why I decided to run 3x Teeg + 2x Canonist.
Some other choices may also be debatable, but of course these are the obvious changes I made to the normal Jund lists running around. Now for the tourney. I should add that this was my first tourney in a while and also my first ever with this deck. (You might wonder why the changes instead of netdecking a proven list, but explanations are already added above. Besides, I don't really like netdecking anyway.
Round 1, against Sneak&Show
Game 1 I mull to 6 and he mulls to 4. He does manage to Show&Tell a Grisel, but I have Liliana online by the time he does. He draws 7 extra cards but he doesn't find enough resources to get a Sneak Attack online before I kill him. Awkward and definitely a tad lucky, but I'll take it.
Game 2 we both have a better start, but it turns out he boarded out 2x Force of Will for Blood Moons. Blood Moon I managed to destroy by tapping mana and letting it resolve, following up with a Charm. Show&Tell nr.1 got REB'd and Liliana got online to cancel out Show&Tell nr.2, after which he died. Never found a Teeg this game.
2-0 // 1-0-0
Round 2, against Death&Taxes
Game 1 he gets all sorts of stuff going while I durdle with awkward mana, draw all my answers a turn too late and so on. I probably scoop too late, which comes back to bite me later.
Game 2 is very interactive. We both struggle, but at some point I get double Grove double PunFire going, which (as I was told by a more experienced player) I didn't use aggressively enough, which also cost time. We started game 3 in the second extra turn after time was called in the round.
1-1-1 // 1-0-1
Round 3, against ANT
Game 1 I know to expect ANT because I know the player. He is from Team Nijmegen. Combo players mostly. They even designed their own Storm variant. They don't play it anymore though. I was on the draw here and got wrecked. I did manage to Thoughtseize him a bit but Brainstorm hid good cards away and his Duress took my second Thoughtseize. I died on his third turn to a Tendrils for 24 or so.
Game 2 I start turn 1 discard, turn 2 Teeg, turn 3 Canonist. He doesn't recover.
Game 3 is a bit more exciting. He is on the play but doesn't have the turn one, thankfully. I have discard and a hate bear. Hate bear dies to a Decay. I Waste his only green land. The second bear sticks and I kill him before he finds Chain of Vapor.
2-1 // 2-0-1
Round 4, against Death&Taxes with red for Recruiter and Magus of the Moon (booh!)
Game 1 I drew nine lands. All of them were Mountains. Sad story. I kept an opener of 4 lands, Top, guy, removal (on the play). Seemed okay because of the Top. Would you keep that hand? First Top activation saw three lands. Never made a second because he Revokered my Top. Four lands and a second Top later I scooped.
>Intermezzo: we get an in round deck check. Is that actually a thing? Rhythm gone, salty because of game 1, I wasn't happy. But still. He's got small dudes. I've got PunFire and Groves. I should be okay if I can keep that freaking Moon guy off the board.
Game 2 he floods a bit. I indeed find my PunFire and Groves and wreck him. Takes some time though.
Game 3 he manages to screw me over again by stopping my Top from working, Spellskyte being a nasty bugger, getting Moon dude on, protected by Spellskyte and a Mom, all of which I never find proper removal for. Do I run too little removal? I manage to stall this one out to a draw, but I'm dead on the board. Two guys playing Moon effects out of four opponents. What are the odds?
1-1-1 // 2-0-2 (Human, what are you doing?)
Round 5, against ANT (Need to win this now!)
Game 1 he mulls to five or so. I have discard, Liliana and a clock. It's too much. Yay! I win game one! I should be fine now. Two chances for my hate bears to grab the victory. It doesn't happen.
Game 2 I mull to six. Discard some stuff but he hid stuff away as well with Brainstorm. I don't get enough pressure on and he gets a row of Goblins on the board. I have Top but it doesn't find me a Charm.
Game 3 I mull to five. Duh. I have the more streamlined curve, the more flexible mana base (assuming he doesn't pressure my lands) and Top, but still I manage to draw horse crap. I do get to discard some stuff, but I don't have a clock. At some point I discard the wrong card, which allows him to go off soon after, but since I had no clock and I was stumbling on mana, it probably wasn't going to matter anyway. Still, lesson learned. I draw badly. It was an excellent idea to streamline my curve a bit, and whatever I try, I will still draw badly every now and then.
1-2 // 2-1-2 (Out of contention, but I forgot to drop...)
Round 6, against Reanimator (controllish list with Hapless and Izzet Charms)
Game 1 I have 3x Deathrite and a Grove as only land. I saw he played Reanimator so I gamble and keep it. I draw an extra Grove and get two of my Deathrites online (one got FoWed). Liliana joins the battle at some point. Lucky me = easy win.
Game 2 he has answers for my hate. Griselbrand joins the party. He is low on life but the only 7 he can draw gets him counters for my two Lilianas. My 6/7 Goyfs also get murdered for no apparent reason. Well played, sir.
Game 3 I have Deathrite, Cage, Spellbomb and Liliana. The artifacts get countered and destroyed, but Deathrite and Lily stick. A Goyf joins them and he goes down quickly.
2-1 // 3-1-2
Not the worst result for a first time with Jund and a first tourney in a long time. I was rusty, I didn't understand some of the matchups (Death&Taxes is weird, man!) and I made errors I shouldn't have, but positive notes are:
- I love Top. Cast early, only use when nothing better to do.
- Loved the cheap discard. Putting early pressure on the combo players was golden.
- The hate bears are awesome. Played ANT twice, could have won both, but played 1-1 where normally this is most likely 0-2 on my side of the score board.
- Non-basic mana base was quite okayish. Death&Taxes didn't pressure my mana base enough to make me worry about the non-basic only base. The Moon dudes were nasty, but D&T with Red is uncommon, to say the least, and I felt it was wrong for Sneak&Show to board Moons in against me. He hadn't seen my Scrub or Delta yet, so he should have expected me to be able to fetch basics game 2. Blood Moon also doesn't help his plan A to get a big guy into play. But the non-basic only base is a risk. Canadian Threshold might show that. I should test that matchup. Against the rest it felt doable and Moons shouldn't turn up so often. If they do, perhaps 'splash-White-Jund' should cut Wastelands for basics. That makes the mana base super solid, but Wastelands are good against some matchups. Tough call...
What do you guys think about:
A. Cutting Sylvan Library for Top?
B. Cutting Hymns for Duresses (or better: cutting Hymns in the first place. Duresses might all go to the board)?
C. Splashing white for sideboard hate bears?
D. Cutting Wastelands to make the white splash mess up the mana base a bit less?
I've tried Top in place of Library before. Top isn't bad and I wouldn't criticize someone for playing it, but I prefer Library.
I'd be reluctant to cut Hymn because it can be such a beating. I always complement Thoughtseize + Hymn with some number of sideboard Duress.
I've splashed White before, with an SB Scrubland along 2x G. Teeg and 2x Canonist. I only played this package at a few locals and didn't run into matchups where it came up much, so I can't really comment on how effective it is. I'd be willing to try it again though.
I don't think there's room for the Scrubland maindeck if you're on this plan. I would rather sacrifice a sideboard slot than drop all basics or trim Wastelands.
Speaking of sideboard tech, at the SCG Legcay Open this weekend (I scrubbed out at 3-4 on day 1) I saw a Jund player running Gamble and Chalice of the Void. Super interesting.
I realistically think the sacred cow no one wants to cut is Bloodbraid Elf. The deck opens up a lot more if you consider cutting Bloodbraid, and possibly even Bob (hear me out) to try Painful Truths. I'd like to see reactions before I post a list I've been trying, and somewhat liking.
-Matt
Thanks for the reply.
The thing with the white splash is that you want many fetch lands to be able to find the Scrub, so you will drop most (if not all) of the Foothills, making your fetch base less optimized for finding your basics. But maybe it's worth the trade and the sideboard slot. I felt my sideboard was already really packed and had trouble cutting my 16th card already, so I never actually considered playing the Scrub on side. I'll try.
The Hymn point may be fair. Would you suggest I go 2x Top 3x Hymn and see how that curve suits me over the long run? This does get me back to EDIT1:14 CMC1 and 19 CMC2 cards instead of 17 vs. 1612 CMC1 and 19 CMC2 cards, instead of 15 vs. 16 (miscounted that one), which looks quite bad actually, but I could try it, if you feel Hymn is too good to pass up on.
Gamble and Chalice, wow. Interesting. My first thought: that's rediculous. But hey, out of the box is where the Magic happens. (Pun intended.)
Excellent suggestion. At night when I couldn't sleep, I also came to the conclusion that during the tourney Bloodbraid was by far the worst card in the deck. Maybe that's because I played against combo four times, but even against the rest it's super clunky and you don't always cascade into Liliana of Goyf. I also cascaded into irrelevant stuff twice. And I only cast four Bloodbraids anyway.
Replacing Bloodbraid in my list is very simple: Green Sun's Zenith! This complements my white splash extremely well, because I then need less Gaddock Teegs. Also it helps smooth out the curve again since Zenith for Arbor is now an option. I always wanted Zenith in this deck, but it doesn't play well with Bloodbraid, so if that one's gone, the coast is clear for Maverick style. EDIT2:First tryout list to follow shortly!Here's a tryout list:
ZENITH JUND
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant /13
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil /24
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland /23
Sideboard:
1 Scrubland
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Pyroblast
2 Duress
3 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Nihil Spellbomb /15
Last edited by Asthereal; 11-30-2015 at 04:08 AM.
A buddy of mine suggested rabblemaster as a replacement for bbe. Seems strong.
I've seen Rabblemaster before in Jund. It's an interesting option, but for now I'll stick to the flexibility of Zenith, mainly because it supports everything I want to change about standard Jund lists: better combo matchups (Zenith for Teeg or grave hate dudes) and a smoother mana curve (Zenith for Arbor is a fine play on turn one, and Zenith can be used as a three-drop when you pick up a Goyf).
I have tinkered a bit with my Zenith list, adding Hymn to Tourach again. Two reasons:
1. Seraphix seems an experienced player with this deck, and he suggested I keep Hymn in.
2. Dropping Bloodbraid is another dent in the card advantage engine. Hymn is card advantage.
The new list feels strong, but I'll have to support that feeling with results (testing or otherwise).
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf /13
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Forked Bolt (decided I want the highest impact for this one-of)
4 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top (adding up to 13 proper one-drops to aid the mana curve)
3 Liliana of the Veil /24
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland /23
Sideboard:
1 Scrubland
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Duress
3 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Toxic Deluge (with main deck only 9 removal, I may need some help from the board)
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Nihil Spellbomb /15
Rabblemaster is a fine card in Jund I think, but there isn't really room for him in a "stock" list and I wouldn't know what to cut. There was a guy on the South Florida Magic stream recently playing Jund with Rabblemaster instead of Tarmogoyf, which seems questionable. Tarmogoyf has gotten some flak recently but pound for pound he's still the best creature in Magic.
Zenith is an interesting idea but I'm not sure its what Jund is about, which is raw card advantage. Painful Truths is interesting as well but I'm not sure how to fit it in. I can't imagine sleeving it up without a bunch of Bloodbraids, Hymns, and the maximum amount of Lilianas I'm allowed to play. Then again, I'm very biased because I live to cast Bloodbraid Elf. I would definitely like to see testing results.
I've been playing Truths in a bunch of Nic Fit decks, it's really strong. But you can't play it in a deck with BBE.
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