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Thread: [Deck] Jund

  1. #41
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    Re: [DTB] Jund

    Jund is not better than Junk, which is why I was surprised that people suddenly considered Jund to be the best deck in Legacy.

    White, unfortunately, does what red does, except better in almost all scenarios. They also have more permanent-based hate than red does.

    So why play Jund over Junk?
    • As Matt said, Bloodbraid Elf is a hell of a drug. The more I play it, the more I like it. My next list is likely to have them in it.
    • Lightning Bolt and burn make you faster. This is relevant.
    • Pyroblast / REB are unparalleled in what they do, there is nothing white can bring that can counter a top-decked Show and Tell or any of the other combo cards. Discard is fine, but the presence of Brainstorm, Top, Jace and other cards make it a losing proposition.
    • In general, Jund is better against Planeswalkers too. BBE and Bolt and REB for Jace.
    • Swords to Plowshares are better against some creatures, but Lightning Bolt is just really good against more. Giving them life can be a problem. Swords is better against fringe decks.


    You do have advantages. Just in a heads-up match, you are not favored, because your advantages won't matter and theirs do. They win goyf wars more too.

  2. #42
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    Re: [DTB] Jund

    I think you have to remember the differences and where they matter. In the Jund-Junk mirror, the red makes you worse, but in the general meta, I think red has a bit of an edge at the moment just due to Blasts (in my opinion, yes BBE is good, but the real reason I've always like BGR, even back with Survival, was because you have instant speed interaction with blue).

    Just really depends on your meta.

    -Matt

  3. #43
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    Re: [DTB] Jund

    Have you guys considered Slaughter Games in the board to help fight Jace decks, Combo, etc.? Card seems REALLY good for what this deck wants to do. If you remove their Entreats, what do you actually fear?

    -Matt

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    Re: [DTB] Jund

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    Have you guys considered Slaughter Games in the board to help fight Jace decks, Combo, etc.? Card seems REALLY good for what this deck wants to do. If you remove their Entreats, what do you actually fear?

    -Matt
    Many of them are now opting for Helm combo, which just seems better since they don't need to tap a lot of mana to win the game. I think the card is okay at best, not sure that you're going to live to see 4 mana against combo (which usually play discard btw). Against combo I prefer to board in 3 duress/thoughtseize and 3 surgicals in addition to the 4 Hymn already in the deck. You need proactive answers that cost 1-2 mana and free reactive spells against their decks.

    Against Jace decks you have better cards to kill their Jaces (lavamancer, creatures, reb, etc). The cards you need to board in against jace decks are cards that beat their white cards, not blue ones. Sulfuric Vortex, Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge, Sulfur Elemental, Lavamancer etc are ways to devastate them, not Slaughter Games imho.

    My current board looks like this:

    2 Tormod's Crypt
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Sulfuric Vortex
    3 Duress (could also be Thoughtseize)
    2 Maelstrom Pulse (could also be Engineered Plague or Go for the Throat/Terminate)
    2 Krosan Grip


    Against UW Blade I bring in: 3 Duress, 3 Vortex, 2 Grip

    Against UW Miracles I bring in: 3 Duress, 3 Vortex, 2 Pulse or 2 Extraction

    Against BUG I bring in 2 Pulse

    Against Dredge I bring in 2 Crypt, 3 Surgical, 2 Pulse

    Against combo: 3 Duress, 3 Surgical

    Rug is difficult because the preboard is already pretty good (I run 4 bolt, 4 Decay and 3 Chain Lightning). I think I could see replacing a Chain or two for Surgicals to remove the creatures I kill (they're a very threat light deck).
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    Re: [DTB] Jund

    For Matt: Isn't Jund the aggro version of Junk, or is Junk the control deck version of Jund? I get so CONFUSED:) the only thing i know for sure is that both are soft to combo decks. I like slaughter games and its costed fine for the deck, im just not sure the meta is concentrated enough for it to really shine. I bought playset anyway because when that day. comes im going to be a happy guy. I am still really undecided about the correct board.
    In general im still waiting for the meta to settle out before finaluzing on a build/board. My gut feeling is that gatecrash wont impact legacy, so we should have a few months of calm to tune and optimize.

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    Re: [DTB] Jund

    From the strategic point of view, the main advantage of Jund over Junk (i.e. of red over white) is the better capability to remove small creatures.
    Secondly, red removals are not dead against creatureless decks and, very important, postboard you gain REB against blue which is huge.

    Therefore, which one is better between Junk and Jund greatly depends on the meta, and there isn’t one more aggro or controllish than the other one, I see both as midrange aggro-control decks.

    Personally, I’m not choosing between Jund and Junk, but between Jund and Team America.

    In my meta tribal is very common – in a tournament you always face more than one between Goblin, Merfolks and Elves. Then you have the usual combination of the main tiers, with not so many combo.

    I already play TA with Dark Confidant and no FoW or Tombstalker, because often card advantage is what makes the difference. TA has no efficient removals besides Abrupt Decay – and when Maverick or D&T lands a Mirran Crusader, maybe equipped, you stop to lough.

    I initially became interested in Jund, when it was not yet so popular, because I was looking for a Shaman+Decay deck playing both Dark Confidant and the Punishing Fire combo, and Jund proved to be a very good catch.

    I can understand that meta can be different and for some of you Punishing Fire could be suboptimal, but for me it absolutely one of the main reason to prefer Jund over Junk (or over TA, but that’s totally another story).

    Don’t forget, also, that Punishing Fire has a good synergy with Liliana as well, by virtually nullifying the discard effect from your side.

    Keep in mind that when discussing about the inclusion of the card, the main question to guide your conclusion is what matchup it is going to improve and what matchups it is going to worsen (if it would improve all it would be a no brainer inclusion, ofc).

    With Punishing Fire, you improve tempo (RUG, TA), control i.e. planeswalkers (Miracle, BUG, Stoneblade also for Lingering Souls), tribal (Goblins, Merfolks, Elves) and midrange (Maverick, Junk, Jund as well). 90% of the field for me, gaining positive or even matchup against any of these. Enough for me to consider Jund as the best tier.

    For my specific meta, I chose to weaken my combo matchup to improve the rest. Combo for me is not so common and it is not a very good matchup for us anyway. I totally cut Hymn from the main to make room for more removals and card filtering. I’m still working on the sideboard and for sure I’ll go to reinforce discard postboard against combo.

    I also don't play Wastelands. Same line of logic as other people explained in the thread. This deck is midrange. It’s slow and mana hungry. It’s not tempo. You don’t have non-mana ways to play cards like Goblins or Merfolks do, nor you have their potential explosiveness, nor you have Knight of the Reliquary like Junk or Maverick for land shenanigans.

    In the end, this is the list I’m testing atm:


    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Bloodbraid Elf
    2 Scavenging Ooze

    4 Abrupt Decay
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Punishing Fire
    3 Thoughtseize
    1 Inquisition of Kozilek

    2 Sylvan Library

    4 Liliana of the Veil

    1 Forest
    1 Mountain
    1 Swamp
    1 Taiga
    1 Badlands
    3 Bayou
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Wooded Foothills
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Grove of the Burnwillows


    I’m currently maximizing PF also because I want to deeply understand how do they work, I want to ask "would I prefer this to be something else" as much as possible – probably I’ll go down to 3 in the end.

    I’m maximizing Liliana as well and I'm totally sold on that, she's THAT good, not dead in multiples, very synergic with PF both for discard and for the extra protection for Lilly, granted by recurring removals.

    I totally love the double Sylvan Library, this deck requires a bit of filtering and it is a great complement to Dark Confidant. I’m also considering a split of one Library and one Sensei’s Divining Top.
    Last edited by Morte; 01-23-2013 at 02:40 PM.

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    Re: [DTB] Jund

    I havent played around with punishing fires yet, I'm still pretty on the fence with it. I dont know that its manageable on 20 lands, that looks tough. I love 2 sylvan main and 4 lilli. I think those are the aces in the deck along with bbe. Esp sylvan X2 i ran that in mav and just loved it. I like the lilli+p fire synergy, not sold on it, but it looks really good. Good luck in testing!

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    Re: [DTB] Jund

    Quote Originally Posted by defector View Post
    I havent played around with punishing fires yet, I'm still pretty on the fence with it. I dont know that its manageable on 20 lands, that looks tough. I love 2 sylvan main and 4 lilli. I think those are the aces in the deck along with bbe. Esp sylvan X2 i ran that in mav and just loved it. I like the lilli+p fire synergy, not sold on it, but it looks really good. Good luck in testing!
    In all honesty, one of the only reasons to run this deck is PFire (the other being BBE). The card is way more than a 2-for-1. In colours that don't produce many X-for-1's, Punishing Fires gives you a ton of value against the field. I was testing the deck so I know how to play against it, and Fires is really good. I'm running 3, and so far so good.

    -Matt

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    Re: [DTB] Jund

    PF is definitely a strong reason to run Jund imo, it's got synergy with the deck and is really strong against numerous current decks. In regards to 4x Lilly though, is 4 really working for you? I found running 4 I'd often get bad Cascades of Lilly when a lilly was already in play. I'm down to 3 and haven't looked back, it seems to flow better. Running 2 Sylvan is the way to go imo.

  10. #50

    Re: [DTB] Jund

    I do wonder however and perhaps someone can enlighten me - why no of the decks that got placed high in GP Denver run Punishing Fire? Those list were very thoughtfully prepared, by experienced players, and their authors did anticipate high number of matchups in which p.fire is great. GP Denver was the tipping point between Jund being ok deck with some good placing and suddenly being considered tier 1 deck.

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    Re: [DTB] Jund

    Quote Originally Posted by crow_mw View Post
    I do wonder however and perhaps someone can enlighten me - why no of the decks that got placed high in GP Denver run Punishing Fire? Those list were very thoughtfully prepared, by experienced players, and their authors did anticipate high number of matchups in which p.fire is great. GP Denver was the tipping point between Jund being ok deck with some good placing and suddenly being considered tier 1 deck.
    That's because Punishing Fire isn't really as good as all the fapping in this thread would seem to indicate. Sure, it's good, but it obviously isn't necessary to win - the question that will have to be answered is does it make the deck better, and I'm on the fence about that right now.
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  12. #52
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    Re: [DTB] Jund

    Punishing fire is really slow and the curve on this deck is really tight. Gas usually isn't a problem for jund as it has many ways of generating gas. Tempo and speed is more important for this deck. I'm also liking 2 grims, they fill the 1cc slot and have been really strong in the same matchups that punishing is good at. Grim may conflict with deathrite at times, but usually its pretty OK. I think this deck is currently the best midrange in legacy. It's better imo than mav or junk because of bloodbraid. Before deathrite and abrupt decay, jund nt have the ideal acceleration/answers which it now has.

    The red splash is primarily for bloodbraid and imo it should be a 4 off. It puts jund over the top in the midrange mirror as well as against control. It's one of the few mid range decks that can beat uw control handily as well as rug and. Other midrange decks. This decks only bad matchup is combo and after board and bringing in pyros and duresses, even combo isn't thatbhard. This is really the elephant in the room right now.

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    Re: [DTB] Jund

    @Matt: I'll give it a test with P Fires. I want 4 wasteland and not sure how that works with the Grove engine, but anyway, the deck is finishing well with and without it, only time will tell:) Maybe wasteland isn't as relevant now that RUG has declined a bit. Need to get some rounds in with some of the different flavors.

  14. #54

    Re: [DTB] Jund

    Grim Lavamancer dies to removal. Yes, that sucks but often it doesn't matter because the CA he generates can put your opponent in a position where they will either lose to Lavamancer or Bob and they only have one abrupt decay in hand. Lavamancer breaks open the deathrite mirror.

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    Re: [DTB] Jund

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    In all honesty, one of the only reasons to run this deck is PFire (the other being BBE). The card is way more than a 2-for-1. In colours that don't produce many X-for-1's, Punishing Fires gives you a ton of value against the field.
    This simply isn't true. The deck already has at least 15-20 other 2 for 1's. BBE, Hymn, Lavamancer, Confidant, Jitte, Liliana (they may not initially be 2 for 1 but over time are, like PFires).

    I don't simply dislike PFires, I actually hate it gives off the impression that it's good when it's really just terrible, and worse than Chain Lightning. If you're already running 4 Bolt, 4 Chain, 4 Lavamancer, then maybe it's okay to run PFires. It's a combo that dies to wasteland and Shaman, both of which are really good right now. It's also dead when you board in your best control board card Sulfuric Vortex. Nothing beats control (other than Jace) like Vortex does.


    Quote Originally Posted by Morte View Post

    With Punishing Fire, you improve tempo (RUG, TA)
    Are you playing against terrible players? PFires may look good against those decks on paper but in reality just ends up getting boarded out. 2 mana against those decks is a lot, and trying to activate a cute 3 mana recurring shock is even worse when they have wasteland, stifle, spell pierce, spell snare, daze, goyfs, mongoose, shaman, or tombstalkers on the board. Great you get to kill delver, congratulations?





    I need everyone to pay attention: Jund is NOT an aggro-control deck. It inherently a Midrange Aggro deck. It has some disruptive elements (as does every deck), but it plans to kill your opponent asap. That is the difference between Jund and Junk. Junk = aggro control, jund = midrange aggro.

    They may seem like semantics, but the difference lies in where you position yourself. You are not the control deck against most opponents, you are the aggressor. Neglecting this fact will result in more misplays, boarding answers, and losses than any card selection will. As a midrange aggro deck, PFires sucks. It doesn't do what you want from a 2 mana spell, and sure as hell doesn't do what you want a 5 mana spell would (assuming you're recurring it).

    If you want to play an aggro-control deck then by all means do so, just realize that it's going to be worse at its role than Junk will.
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  16. #56
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    Re: [DTB] Jund

    Guys please try to be rational, everybody can have his personal preference about a card but this is a DTB thread now, we’re supposed to talk about evidences, not about our private emotions.

    Punishing Fire IS good. It made result in Maverick, where Gorve of the Burnwillows is partially out of colors, it made result in Jund where it is perfectly in colors.

    Let’s replay to someone asking for evidences.

    Quote Originally Posted by crow_mw View Post
    I do wonder however and perhaps someone can enlighten me - why no of the decks that got placed high in GP Denver run Punishing Fire? Those list were very thoughtfully prepared, by experienced players, and their authors did anticipate high number of matchups in which p.fire is great. GP Denver was the tipping point between Jund being ok deck with some good placing and suddenly being considered tier 1 deck.
    The following list ranked 4th at 212 players StarCityGames Legacy Open – Dallas, on 20/01/2013: I suppose this list was actually "very thoughtfully prepared, by experienced players, and their authors did anticipate high number of matchups in which p.fire is great".

    It's not a long time that Jund proved to be so strong in Legacy, the competitive players too need time to assess what is the best shape of a deck (a result NOT CARVED IN STONE, I repeat, but meta dependent).

    Please note the fourth PF in sideboard. I suppose this guy was quite convinced of the power of PF, and T8ing a 212 event is not always just luck.

    Now on zulander.

    Quote Originally Posted by zulander View Post
    Are you playing against terrible players? PFires may look good against those decks (RUG, TA) on paper but in reality just ends up getting boarded out. 2 mana against those decks is a lot, and trying to activate a cute 3 mana recurring shock is even worse when they have wasteland, stifle, spell pierce, spell snare, daze, goyfs, mongoose, shaman, or tombstalkers on the board. Great you get to kill delver, congratulations?
    Ehm... Thank you, your congratulations are welcome

    No offense, but this is emotion, not logic. It seems you’re talking about the tempo matchup without having any practical knowledge of it. Come on, if you can’t assemble two mana against a deck you won’t go anywhere in any case with a relatively high curve as Jund.
    Instead, and consider a tempo player is speaking, tempo wins if it is able to compromise the balance of the game in its favor during the early game. If it fails – i.e. if you can contain its early assault of Delver & friends – and the game goes longer, then they have no chance.

    They need resources to stop PF. Generally speaking, any plan in Magic can be stopped in some way, this is not a criterion to assess its consistence. You should ask, "what happens if my plan fails?", for example about card advantage. They counter PF? Ok, almost all spells in Magic can be countered. But PF, unlike Lavamancer, can return from the graveyard. And it doesn’t care of a sudden Terminus, it’s an alternative useful angle of attack.

    They waste your Grove? Ok, no combo for you. PF is just a shock for two mana. Still a versatile removal, not very efficient, but in practice almost equivalent to Lightning Bolt, in that almost all the staples that die to Bolt have 1 or 2 toughness anyway. But, unlike Bolt, if later you draw another Grove…

    Tombstalker. Seriously? None of the cards you are pushing in place of PF can remove him. I’ll tell you a story. I was playing against TA. He landed a stalker. But Destiny wanted I was able to remove all his other little cuties with my removal engine… Then, when my Liliana asked for a sacrifice to her beauty, my oppo could do nothing else than say goodbye to his beloved demon.
    Ok now I’m having fun, but you got the point, PF is somewhat useful also here.

    You’re talking of the PF+Grove combo as if our plan was strictly relying on that, which is wrong. It’s not Show and Tell or Painter’s Servant. PF and Grove are useful by themselves, even if you don’t assemble or use the combo, so they’re not a huge investment in terms of deck design. THEN, if you succeed in assembling the combo when it’s useful (high percentage of the meta) go nuts. But no way it is a problem if they stop it.

    I hope to be of help in the general understanding of PF. This is not a religious war. I can understand that a shift in the general consensus about our favorite deck can cause some kind of fear or anger, but please try to stay on topic. This is a DTB thread, we all expect objective criticism for a competitive support to the deck development.

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    Re: [DTB] Jund

    Quote Originally Posted by Morte View Post
    Guys please try to be rational, everybody can have his personal preference about a card but this is a DTB thread now, we’re supposed to talk about evidences, not about our private emotions.

    Punishing Fire IS good. It made result in Maverick, where Gorve of the Burnwillows is partially out of colors, it made result in Jund where it is perfectly in colors.

    Let’s replay to someone asking for evidences.



    The following list ranked 4th at 212 players StarCityGames Legacy Open – Dallas, on 20/01/2013: I suppose this list was actually "very thoughtfully prepared, by experienced players, and their authors did anticipate high number of matchups in which p.fire is great".

    It's not a long time that Jund proved to be so strong in Legacy, the competitive players too need time to assess what is the best shape of a deck (a result NOT CARVED IN STONE, I repeat, but meta dependent).

    Please note the fourth PF in sideboard. I suppose this guy was quite convinced of the power of PF, and T8ing a 212 event is not always just luck.

    Now on zulander.



    Ehm, thank you, your congratulations are welcome

    No offense, but this is emotion, not logic. It seems you’re talking about the tempo matchup without having any practical knowledge of it. Come on, if you can’t assemble two mana against a deck you won’t go anywhere in any case with a relatively high curve as Jund.
    Instead, and consider a tempo player is speaking, tempo wins if it is able to compromise the balance of the game in its favor during the early game. If it fails – i.e. if you can contain its early assault of Delver & friends – and the game goes longer, then they have no chance.

    They need resources to stop PF. Generally speaking, any plan in Magic can be stopped in some way, this is not a criterion to assess its consistence. You should ask, "what happens if my plan fails?", for example about card advantage. They counter PF? Ok, almost all spells in Magic can be countered. But PF, unlike Lavamancer, can return from the graveyard. And it doesn’t care of a sudden Terminus, it’s an alternative useful angle of attack.

    They waste your Grove? Ok, no combo for you. PF is just a shock for two mana. Still a versatile removal, not very efficient, but in practice almost equivalent to Lightning Bolt, in that almost all the staples that die to Bolt have 1 or 2 toughness anyway. But, unlike Bolt, if later you draw another Grove…

    Tombstalker. Seriously? None of the cards you are pushing in place of PF can remove him. I’ll tell you a story. I was playing against TA. He landed a stalker. But Destiny wanted I was able to remove all his other little cuties with my removal engine… Then, when my Liliana asked for a sacrifice to her beauty, my oppo could choose nothing else than remove his sweet demon.
    Ok now I’m having fun, but you got the point, PF is somewhat useful also here.

    You’re talking of the PF+Grove combo as if our plan was strictly relying on that, which is wrong. It’s not Show and Tell or Painter’s Servant. PF and Grove are useful by themselves, even if you don’t assemble or use the combo, so they’re not a huge investment in terms of deck design. THEN, if you succeed in assembling the combo when it’s useful (high percentage of the meta) go nuts. But no way it is a problem if they stop it.

    I hope to be of help in the general understanding of PF. This is not a religious war. I can understand that a shift in the general consensus about our favorite deck can cause some kind of fear or anger, but please try to stay on topic. This is a DTB thread, we all expect objective criticism for a competitive support to the deck development.
    My point isn't that "PFires can be disrupted, it's not good" rather its that "PFires can easily be disrupted, leaving you with suboptimal 'combo' pieces remaining in your deck". I listed BUG/rug examples f disruption because someone said PFires was good against them and I tried to refute this assertion with some of the 20+ cards that easily disrupt the combo.

    I don't see a problem with having strong reservations for a suboptimal combo as being "emotional". You're going to have to live with my opinionated personality just like I live with people playing PFires lol ;)

    Lastly, you can choose to be result oriented, I'm not so sure that's the best way to prepare for Magic though. No doubt people have won games because of PFires, it's just that it will be less than optimal in more games than beneficial.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBFREELY
    You should all immediately fire emails at the DCI requesting the banning of Tarmogoyf and Golgari Grave-Troll.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    I'm pretty sure I'm not compelled to address your non-argument based simply on the fact that you're obviously borderline retarded.
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  18. #58
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    Re: [DTB] Jund

    Quote Originally Posted by zulander View Post
    Lastly, you can choose to be result oriented, I'm not so sure that's the best way to prepare for Magic though.
    They call it Science. It's quite good if you're not talking about metaphysics, and in a card game we’re totally in the world of math, statistics and variation.

    You are still not getting my point. You should ARGUE your statements. In my previous replay I proved you that your arguments were weak. You CAN state that a card choice is suboptimal or whatever, but you’re of no help for anybody if you don’t bring any VALID argumentation and/or experimental data (testing or success in large events).

    Not to be totally out of topic, regarding your point "PFires can easily be disrupted, leaving you with suboptimal 'combo' pieces remaining in your deck", I think I widely answered earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morte View Post
    They need resources to stop PF. Generally speaking, any plan in Magic can be stopped in some way, this is not a criterion to assess its consistence. You should ask, "what happens if my plan fails?", for example about card advantage. They counter PF? Ok, almost all spells in Magic can be countered. But PF, unlike Lavamancer, can return from the graveyard. And it doesn’t care of a sudden Terminus, it’s an alternative useful angle of attack.

    They waste your Grove? Ok, no combo for you. PF is just a shock for two mana. Still a versatile removal, not very efficient, but in practice almost equivalent to Lightning Bolt, in that almost all the staples that die to Bolt have 1 or 2 toughness anyway. But, unlike Bolt, if later you draw another Grove…

    (…)

    PF and Grove are useful by themselves, even if you don’t assemble or use the combo, so they’re not a huge investment in terms of deck design. THEN, if you succeed in assembling the combo when it’s useful (high percentage of the meta) go nuts.

  19. #59
    hai 2 u
    zulander's Avatar
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    Re: [DTB] Jund

    Quote Originally Posted by Morte View Post
    They call it Science. It's quite good if you're not talking about metaphysics, and in a card game we’re totally in the world of math, statistics and variation.
    You are still not getting my point. You should ARGUE your statements. In my previous replay I proved you that your arguments were weak. You CAN state that a card choice is suboptimal or whatever, but you’re of no help for anybody if you don’t bring any VALID argumentation and/or experimental data (testing or success in large events).
    I would if there was published data for the overall tournament. Just because a deck places in top 8 does not mean that it did well that day. I have been told that SCG isn't publishing their data anymore though which means we have to rely on theory and personal experiences. In my experiences (multiple tournaments against good players) PFires sucked. You listed one deck list that did well, all you proved is that pilot performed well, not the deck. I hope you understand my arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morte View Post
    Not to be totally out of topic, regarding your point "PFires can easily be disrupted, leaving you with suboptimal 'combo' pieces remaining in your deck", I think I widely answered earlier.
    You did, but I find your answer to be an insufficient reason to run the combo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBFREELY
    You should all immediately fire emails at the DCI requesting the banning of Tarmogoyf and Golgari Grave-Troll.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    I'm pretty sure I'm not compelled to address your non-argument based simply on the fact that you're obviously borderline retarded.
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  20. #60
    Splitting time between Legacy, EDH and Alterations
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    Re: [DTB] Jund

    Punishing fires is a strong card in decks that need the extra gas or reach. Also it is extremely mana intensive and strains the manabase. Jund fits the grove colours but the main colour of this deck is black so grove has to eat some wasteland slots. A grinding mirror oriented jund may benefit from fires/grove but in general, it is too easily disrupted and puts too much of a strain on the manabase /manacurve (too many 2 drops in this deck) to be optimal.

    That's my 2 cents.

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