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Thread: Oops, All Spells! (Formerly The Rogue Hermit)

  1. #461
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by yugular View Post
    Really looking forward to see the primer!

    I played against this deck the other day in Modo and the guy pulled a win with The Mimeoplasm. Is that something that is already discussed in this thread? I am not sure how good option that is compared to the Lab Maniac kill, but its an interesting take nevertheless.
    Thanks, it's coming along!

    Wow, I didn't realize people still played strictly inferior kill conditions. I guess I'll mention why Mimeoplasm kills are bad. At least the Sutured Ghoul kill isn't strictly inferior...
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  2. #462

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmutant View Post
    Thanks, it's coming along!

    Wow, I didn't realize people still played strictly inferior kill conditions. I guess I'll mention why Mimeoplasm kills are bad. At least the Sutured Ghoul kill isn't strictly inferior...
    Not really strictly inferior. As this primer discusses, the Laboratory Maniac version is more vulnerable to removal: http://forums.somethingawful.com/sho...#post420554337

    This version uses Triskelion in the first game, then swaps it for Giant Solifuge, the logic being that Leyline of Sanctity is almost never played in the main deck.

  3. #463

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    If playing the dread return kill, underworld cerberus only takes up two slots (itself + lab man) while still dodging removal and doesn't require the attack step. I would go with that.

  4. #464
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    read cards please - it doesn't work - returning creatures to hand.

  5. #465
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    read cards please - it doesn't work - returning creatures to hand.
    Yes, it does exactly what you wrote- it returns all creature cards from your GY to your hand so you can play Lab Man with the help of Guides and Wild Cantor. It was explained a few pages back.

  6. #466

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Cerberus frees up a slot, but Azami allows you to beat a removal spell.

  7. #467
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyQuinn View Post
    Cerberus frees up a slot, but Azami allows you to beat a removal spell.
    You can beat removal spell in the Cerberus version by cycling one of your Street Wraiths in response to the removal. The only issue might be the loss of life. Another advantage of Cerberus version is that you don't need to get Lab Maniac to the graveyard if you draw it- Which is not the case in Angel version, you need all your combo pieces in yard when you go off. Considering this I agree with Nudon, that Cerberus is the best available DR target.

  8. #468
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    It's worth noting that if Cerberus is stuck in your hand, you'll need to first Therapy yourself to get it into the graveyard, then Dread Return -- so you'll have gone through four creatures at this point -- then sac it to another Therapy. Since it's pretty common to have one of the Narcomoebas in hand, this creates a sizable problem and cuts you off of winning through Undercity Informer. You can guard against this by running Bridge From Below, but then you lose the extra slot. I'm not saying it's worse, but there are tradeoffs.

  9. #469

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    How about a version where u choose to draw 2nd and play reanimate as win cons 9-12? You either entomb or discard it as your 8th card and reanimate next turn...and you only need 1 or 2 mana to do so. The rest can be used as daze/spell pierce protection etc. Also...if one of the reanimate spells gets countered u only need 1-3 more mana to try again instead of 4. And...you can still always just cast the creature if you need too. The deck already looks really weak to graveyard hate...y not shore up the matchup against counters? Also unmask/therapy can put any of the creatures in the yard. I know this is too many cards and I havent tested it but something like this:

    Would need to cut 2:
    3x unmask,
    4x entomb
    4x reanimate
    2x animate dead
    4x exhume
    8x win con creature
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Summoner's Pact
    1 Wild Cantor
    4x manamorphose
    1 Angel of Glory's Rise
    1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
    1 Laboratory Maniac
    4 Narcomoeba
    1 Dread Return
    2 cabal therapy

    SB:
    4x pact of negation
    chancellor of the annex?
    11x ??? Anti gy hate...null rod...abeyance
    Last edited by kinda; 12-11-2013 at 03:22 AM.

  10. #470
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    How about a version where u choose to draw 2nd and play reanimate as win cons 9-12? You either entomb or discard it as your 8th card and reanimate next turn...and you only need 1 or 2 mana to do so. The rest can be used as daze/spell pierce protection etc. Also...if one of the reanimate spells gets countered u only need 1-3 more mana to try again instead of 4. And...you can still always just cast the creature if you need too. The deck already looks really weak to graveyard hate...y not shore up the matchup against counters? Also unmask/therapy can put any of the creatures in the yard. I know this is too many cards and I havent tested it but something like this:

    <list>
    1) Dude, The Source isn't your middle school broheim, just try grammaring just a little. I'm a native English speaker and I had trouble parsing your post. See: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post174024
    2) Did you really just post a 62 card list?
    3) We discussed that on the first couple of pages of this thread and discarded it because it was bad. But you would have learned that if you goldfished the idea at all.

    In other news, I'm almost finished the primer, just need to boot up the ol' Windoze machine and start up my rusty copy of Photoshop CS5 to crank out some images. I'll post the rough draft of the primer another post so y'all can critique it. No need to be gentle! My feelings don't bruise easily.

    Edit: 3 came across a little harsh. Sorry. What I meant to say was: I'm fairly certain that's bad based on testing a similar idea/build, but if you find promising results from testing, let us know.
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  11. #471

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Actually the discard, go strategy seems kind of interesting, provided you're playing 2nd game two or three depending on the match up you could board in Reanimate/Exhumes.

    I definitely give that creativity points/

  12. #472
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Rogue Hermit Primer

    <Image>

    1. Why
    2. Card Choices & Strategy
    3. History
    4. How to Evaluate Opening Hands
    5. Match Up Strategies
    6. Articles & Results


    Rogue Hermit is an extremely fast all-in graveyard combo deck that uses Balustrade Spy and Undercity Informer to mill its whole deck and then win.

    Link to previous thread here

    1. Why play Rogue Hermit?

    Because you're a sadomasochistic, fun-hating troglodyte who hates interacting with people? No, that couldn't possibly be it.

    Because you enjoy the sweet thrill of winning before your opponent has taken a turn? Yes, that's it!

    Rogue Hermit is the fastest deck in Legacy. It has the highest percentage of turn 1 goldfishes of any deck in the format.
    But what about Belcher?
    Hold your horses, we'll get to you in a minute.
    Hey, SI is pretty fast too!
    Come on, buddy.

    7 of Belcher's 11 win conditions are Empty the Warrens. Now, there's nothing inherently wrong with piles of 1/1 Goblins...

    <picture of Golgari Charm, Pyroclasm, Terminus, Batterskull>

    Ahem, what was I saying? Ah, right, that Rogue Hermit either mostly or entirely blanks creature removal (depending on the build).

    It also only requires assembling 4 mana to Belcher's 6-7 or SI's...counting...stoprushingme...


    2. Card Choices & Strategy

    First, the goal of the deck is create 4 mana, put a rogue into play, then accidentally your entire deck (technical term). To do this without lands, you need plenty of initial mana sources and rituals. Initial mana sources (IMS) get you going from nothing, but the rituals bump you to 4 mana.

    Mana
    The mana core of the deck is as follows:
    // IMS
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    3-4 Summoner's Pact
    0-4 Simian Spirit Guide
    0-4 Chancellor of the Tangle

    // Rituals
    4 Dark Ritual

    Lotus Petal is by far the best IMS because it produces black, often the deck's bottleneck. Chrome Mox can be the second black IMS if you imprint a black card. Elvish Spirit Guide produces the deck's second-most important color and importantly can be found with Summoner's Pact so it is always a 4-of. The others are the next most consistent. Chancellor of the Tangle is neat in that it allows one to make a G and also imprint it on Chrome Mox (a perfect complement to Living Wish!), but Simian Spirit Guide is more consistent at making mana. Summoner's Pact is unique in that it can both be a +1 if it finds an Elvish Spirit Guide, but also can find the very important 1-of creature(s)
    1 Wild Cantor and rarely,
    1 Deathrite Shaman, but Pact has the downside of being entirely all-in.

    Cantor seems innocuous, but don't let that 1/1 body fool you. He's a powerhouse at turning Spirit Guides into black mana. Deathrite Shaman is tech from SI that allows a G/B imprint target for Chrome Mox, but is usually not worth it without Culling the Weak.

    These mana elements are filled out with some additional (worse) mana producers.
    Manamorphose – Deemed necessary by Prosak, garbage by Menendian. Often played as a 4-of to turn red and green mana into black.
    Tinder Wall – Facilitates the board plan into Belcher, but awkward to cast in multiples.
    Cabal Ritual – It's black (ideal for imprinting), but costs 2.
    Grim Monolith – Very good at banking Chancellor or Simian Spirit Guide mana.
    Rite of Flame – Some builds prefer this over Cabal Ritual (and/or Tinder Wall).
    Lion's Eye Diamond – Only played with Living Wish, although it can serve as the 4th mana to activate Undercity Informer. Bad to draw by itself.

    Other packages have been tried and discarded for good reason.
    Land Grant (+ lands) – Trust me on this one.
    Mox Opal – Terribly inconsistent, can't imprint on Chrome Mox, and pushes you to run Tall Men.
    Culling the Weak – Culling is good when you can Land Grant up a Dryad Arbor or Pact up a Skyshroud Cutter. Rogue Hermit can not play lands.

    Enablers
    These are the cards that enable the combo kill or dig to those that do. By far the most important are the rogues:
    Balustrade Spy
    Undercity Informer

    Every deck runs all 8 in the 75. Living Wish builds need one man in the sideboard – but which one? 4 Undercity Informer in the main allows LEDs to be live more often, but mana is usually tighter when casting Living Wish. The consensus seems to be 4 Informer main.

    Many players round out the deck with some additional free cantrips.
    Gitaxian Probe
    Street Wraith

    These have the advantage of making the deck smaller so you don't have to play subpar rituals, but at the cost of making mulliganing much more difficult. Street Wraith is also fantastic for imprinting on Chrome Mox and should always be played first over Probe. Most lists that have done well have included all 8 free cantrips.

    Combo Pieces
    Ah, the meat of the deck. Now that you've got all your lovely cards in the graveyard, what to do? The most obvious answer is a Dread Return package combined with a kill package.

    1) Dread Return Package
    The Dread Return package is common to all but one of the kills. I'll show it first, then explain how it works in a bit.
    1 Dread Return
    1-4 Cabal Therapy
    3-4 Narcomoeba
    0-2 Bridge from Below

    1a) Angel Package
    The stock kill package is not especially compact, but resilient both to 1 removal spell and to almost all permanent-based interaction.
    1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
    1 Angel of Glory's Rise
    1 Laboratory Maniac

    So how does this work? Mill your deck, put at least 3 Narcomoebas in play. Dread Return, targetting Angel of Glory's Rise, which triggers to reanimate Azami, Lab Man, and all the Undercity Informers and Wild Cantors in your deck. Now with Laboratory Maniac in play, you just need to draw a card. Both Azami and Lab Man can be tapped to draw a card, allowing you to play around at least one removal spell.

    An often overlooked trick is to simply pass the turn if you won't die to Pact triggers on the next upkeep. That forces your opponent to make the first move or let you (uncounterably) draw for turn, which allows you to play around 2 (TWO) removal spells.

    Therapy is necessary to be able to remove combo pieces from your hand. If you have extra dudes on the battlefield, it can also take any interaction they may have lurking- like Flusterstorm.

    It's pretty awkward when you draw a Narcomoeba. Drawing 2 with the standard 4 Narc build? Alert the suicide watch. Yup, despite assembling your combo and milling your deck, it is impossible to cast Dread Return. Playing Bridge from Below allows you to Therapy yourself for drawn combo pieces without going down on men, and also Bridge can imprint for B on Chrome Mox.

    1b) Sutured Ghoul Package
    The next kill package uses only 2 cards instead of 3.
    1 Sutured Ghoul
    1 Dragon's Breath

    The kill is the same up to Dread Return. You return the Ghoul, exile lots of creatures, attach Dragon's Breath, and attack with a very large hastey trampler. It's a two-card kill, what's the problem? Only
    Swords to Plowshares, Disenchant, Stifle, Chain of Vapor, Seal of Removal, Echoing Truth, Ensnaring Bridge, Nature's Claim, Abrupt Decay, Wear // Tear
    And many others.

    But it's ok, you're always winning on turn 1, right? ...right?

    1c) Cerberus Package
    A new 2-card Dread Return kill has been proposed since the release of Theros:
    1 Laboratory Maniac
    1 Underworld Cerberus
    N.b. This requires Street Wraiths and 2+ Cabal Therapies in the main (and a Cantor)

    In this kill, you Dread Return the doom dog and then sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy. When it dies, you return all your creature cards to your hand. Exile the Spirit Guides for mana, cast Wild Cantor and sac for U, cast Laboratory Maniac, then cycle Street Wraiths for the win.

    The Cerberus kill has the advantage of having one fewer dead card than the Angel kill and is also not realistically vulnerable to removal. However, you must play at least 2 Cabal Therapies in order to discard the Cerberus from your hand if you happen to draw it.

    2) Past in Flames Package
    This next kill package is completely different and a little intricate. It eschews the Dread Return package entirely for:
    1 Memory's Journey
    1 Deep Analysis
    1 Past in Flames
    1 Noxious Revival
    N.b. This requires Living Wish and LEDs in the main and Laboratory Maniac in the sideboard.

    The basic scenario is (mana in parens):
    1. Mill library with access to a G (floating, from an LED, or from a Chrome Mox and an untap step).
    2. Memory's Journey 3 LEDs to your (empty) library. Draw a card. This can be for turn or with a Probe in hand, or even if you stack a Street Wraith and respond with Undercity Informer's ability.
    3. Play and crack the drawn LED for blue (UUU).
    4. Flashback Deep Analysis to draw 2 more LEDs (U)
    5. Play and crack the LEDs for RRR and BBB (UBBBRRR)
    6. Flashback Past in Flames (UB)
    7. Flashback rituals (UBx9)
    8. Flashback Noxious Revival on an LED
    9. Flashback a Gitaxian Probe, draw LED
    10. Crack LED for G (UBx9GGG)
    11. Flashback Living Wish for Laboratory Maniac (UBx8GG)
    12 Cast Laboratory Maniac (Bx6GG)
    13. Flashback Gitaxian Probe, respond to removal with Manamorphose

    Coming up with lethal sequences beyond the basic one given mana floating and which cards in hand can be surprisingly intricate. This configuration will take a bit of practice to see all the lines.

    So what's the payoff for all this complexity? Only 4 dedicated kill cards main to draw as opposed to 8-11. That's a savings of approximately 1.792 seppukus per person per tournament. It also facilitates a transformational board (more below) since there's fewer dead cards to take out and LEDs are preboaded.

    The disadvantage (besides not being able to execute the kill while strung out on a Tijuana bender) is that it requires a G and a draw (or 1UG or 5RG floating). Many Sourcers like nudon and I feel like this is acceptable.

    3) Inferior Options
    There are a few more kills that are actually strictly inferior to the ones presented. Usually, they revolve around the Dread Return package and The Mimeoplasm.
    1 The Mimeoplasm
    1 Lord of Extinction
    1 Murderous Redcap
    This is inferior because it loses to Leyline of Sanctity and very high life totals. Removal is irrelevant for whatever that's worth.

    1 The Mimeoplasm
    1 Lord of Extinction
    1 Triskelion
    See above. This one at least has the advantage of being able to gun down pesky creatures like True Believer before going to the dome. Again, for whatever that's worth.

    There's a number of other builds, but ultimately they all share the same flaw – with a 3 card package, they either lose to Leyline of Sanctity or to removal or to the attack step.

    I believe that there are only two correct choices – the Cerberus Package or the Past in Flames Package. Both are compact and dodge most commonly played forms of interaction. The Cerberus package always wins on the spot but requires at least 9 cards, whereas the Past in Flames package has a reasonable number of situations where it has to pass the turn, but only requires 4 cards. Ultimately, the choice for kill package is yours.

    The Sideboard
    Oh, the all-in combo sideboard. Often considered...just so irrelevant. Not in this deck! So your opponent just got murdered to death by some big nasty from the graveyard. He can't bring in all those lovely graveyard hate cards quickly enough! But you. You wily dog, you. You have the holy grail of all combo decks – the rare – the unmistakable –

    TRANSFORMATIONAL SIDEBOARD
    4 Goblin Charbelcher,
    sometimes 4 Spoils of the Vault,
    and MORE MANA, such as:
    Lion's Eye Diamond
    Tinder Wall
    Grim Monolith
    Land Grant
    Bayou

    Of course, what you have in the board depends on what you have in the main. Those are in (roughly) descending order of preference. Typically that takes up a good 7-11 slots. Now what?

    Anti-hate!
    Carpet of Flowers – you hate blue mages, right?
    Xantid Swarm – what did I say about those blue mages?
    What, you wanted answers to other colors? Fine.
    Pact of Negation – good against both counterspells and Surgical Extraction. And please. Don't play Pact and LED together. They are not best buds.

    Of course, if you're playing Living Wish in the main, a significant amount of sideboard space is spent on Wish targets. There's always going to be one of the rogues and a land. If you're playing the Past in Flames kill there will also be a kill condition. Some other notables:
    Hickory Woodlot – sometimes you need GG
    Geothermal Crevice – and sometimes you need BG
    City of Brass – and sometimes you need to spend 1G to make B. Or other colors.
    Phyrexian Obliterator – the biggest, baddest dude that costs 4 or less of 1 color.
    Magus of the Moon – a little cheaper and can be a GG against certain decks.
    Thrun, the Last Troll – He's hard to remove.
    Tomb of Urami – What do you think this is, SI?


    3. History

    Once upon a time, Balustrade Spy and Undercity Informer were spoiled. I was intrigued. Surely these cards were busted, I thought to myself. After goldfishing a few (dozen) games, I saw it had promise, and made a thread. Turns out a few other people had seen the potential too. The first Rogue Hermit decklist on The Source:
    That list borrowed heavily from the hard work that the SI folks did developing the “Tall Men” build. It was also awful. Culling the Weak and Mox Opal were inconsistent garbage.

    Independently, Ziveeman (aka Jason Abong), had come up with a list on his blog slightly earlier.

    Very quickly, Ziveeman, .dk, and I all came up the fix for the mana issues by cribbing from the next evolution of SI, Pact-SI. The essential package was:
    4 Summoner's Pact
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    1 Wild Cantor
    Summoner's Pact functions a +G ritual with the help of Elvish Spirit Guide and can also provide critical fixing from green to black.

    Things were looking up, but then disaster struck. Adam Prosak wrote an article about the deck, and henceforth it was branded with easily the dumbest name in the modern era of Legacy - “Oops! All spells”. Now let's take a minute to talk about names.

    Names are important. Names mean things. Rogue Hermit means something – it evokes a powerful nostalgia of a bygone combo, Hermit Druid – and it mentions the lynchpins of the deck – the rogues (Balustrade Spy and Undercity Informer). “Oops!” is about as evocative as a child sounding a vuvuzela next to your eardrum. But it's ok, we're not mad.

    In any case, Prosak featured what would come to be the stock build as played by non-Sourcers. Notably, Prosak and his descendants tended to play all 12 free cantrips, while Sourcers tended to gravitate towards Living Wish, LEDs and at most Manamorphose for cantrips. This entrenched the major dichotomy in the deck – cantrips vs. more business spells.

    This is exemplified in the best-performing decklist to date:

    Jeremy Barbeau
    2nd place at SCG Milwaukee, 2013-10-13

    // Mana
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    1 Tinder Wall
    1 Wild Cantor
    3 Summoner's Pact
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cabal Ritual
    4 Manamorphose

    // Enablers
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Balustrade Spy
    4 Undercity Informer

    // Combo Pieces
    4 Narcomoeba
    3 Cabal Therapy
    1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
    1 Laboratory Maniac
    1 Angel of Glory's Rise
    1 Dread Return

    // Sideboard
    4 Goblin Charbelcher
    1 Grim Monolith
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    3 Tinder Wall
    3 Spoils of the Vault

    Similar lists have been a scourge upon the Magic Online metagame and placed in the top 16 of SCG Oakland.

    Steven Menendian previously had ran with the Source lists and wrote a well-reasoned article incorporating Living Wish but importantly not LED or cantrips:
    // Business
    4 Undercity Informer
    3 Balustrade Spy
    4 Living Wish
    3 Narcomoeba
    2 Bridge from Below
    1 Dread Return
    1 Laboratory Maniac
    1 Angel of Glory’s Rise
    1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
    4 Pact of Negation
    2 Cabal Therapy

    // Mana Sources
    4 Chancellor of the Tangle
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cabal Ritual
    4 Summoner’s Pact
    1 Wild Cantor
    1 Lion’s Eye Diamond

    // Sideboard
    1 Cavern of Souls
    1 Ebon Stronghold
    1 City of Traitors
    1 City of Brass
    1 Karakas
    1 Undercity Informer
    1 Thrun, the Last Troll
    1 Fiend Hunter
    3 Lion’s Eye Diamond
    4 Goblin Charbelcher

    Nudon later rebuilt the kill package from the ground up with this innovative list (after some initial refinement):

    // Mana
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Tinder Wall
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Summoner's Pact
    1 Wild Cantor
    4 Manamorphose

    // Enablers
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Undercity Informer
    3 Balustrade Spy
    4 Living Wish

    // Combo Pieces
    1 Memory's Journey
    1 Deep Analysis
    1 Past in Flames
    1 Noxious Revival

    // Sideboard
    1 Balustrade Spy
    1 Laboratory Maniac
    1 City of Brass
    1 Hickory Woodlot
    1 Geothermal Crevice
    1 Phyrexian Obliterator
    1 Magus of the Moon
    4 Xantid Swarm
    4 Carpet of Flowers

    At the moment, it is unclear which is the best among the cantrip-heavy builds a la Prosak, the Living Wish version with the Azami kill a la Menendian, and the Past in Flames kill.


    4. How to Evaluate Opening Hands

    Count to 4. Next!

    But seriously. Don't keep hands that don't have business. Don't do it! The deck is mostly mana, so it's better to mulligan to 5 than to spend 10 turns drawing the rogue. Don't be tricked by those cantrips. They are not business.

    If you're playing the Dread Return package, do not ever keep hands with 2 Narcomoebas in them unless you're also playing 2 Dread Return and you can go off right then.

    Besides that, just do a little basic math to figure out the probability of drawing the one or two cards you need.


    5. Matchup Analysis

    Coming...


    6. Articles & Results

    Results:
    2013-04-07 - Hernandez, Tonio - TLA Tourneo 1 - 3rd - http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=4795&d=227708
    2013-10-13 - Barbeau, Jeremy - SCG Milwaukee - 2nd - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=59861
    2013-12-08 - Chapman, Jefferey - SCG Oakland - 16th - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=61233

    Articles:
    2013-01-29 - Prosak, Adam - Unveiling "Oops, All Spells!" - http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ll-Spells.html
    2013-03-28 - Menendian, Steven - Rogue Hermit: Legacy Edition - http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-man...egacy-edition/


    PS:
    <3 SI. Despite dogging on the deck, you guys do good work and we wouldn't have been able to get off the ground so quickly without you. Thanks.
    Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.

  13. #473

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Nice one, Phazonmutant! Excellent primer! And fun to read too. Just 1 remark: in your explication of the working of the deck you stated:

    "It's pretty awkward when you draw a Narcomoeba. Drawing 2 with the standard 4 Narc build? Alert the suicide watch. Yup, despite assembling your combo and milling your deck, it is impossible to cast Dread Return."

    Not true when you milled your deck with a Ballustrade Spy. In that case you have a Spy & 2 Moeba's floating around on the BF wich is sufficient to DR Angel. small nuance, but important!

  14. #474

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Thanks for writing the primer as it looks pretty solid! I did notice a small typo in the following phrase: "then accidentally your entire deck (technical term)." I think you forgot the word "grind". Also to illustrate your point that cyclers don't count as a business spells, I would edit the headers in the deck list section to reflect this. Aside from that, I thought you did a great job. :)

  15. #475
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    I like the primer. Your very style of writing reflects the simple nature of the deck. Well done.

    About that passage:
    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmutant View Post
    Rogue Hermit Primer
    If you're playing the Dread Return package, do not ever keep hands with 2 Narcomoebas in them unless you're also playing 2 Dread Return and you can go off right then.
    How would 2 Dread Return help you in such a situation?
    When playing with only 1 Dread Return you can keep T1-kill hands with 2 Narcomoebae only if your Millspell goes by the name of "Balustrade Spy" AND if you have 2 more Narcomoebae in your deck. People tend to forget that Balustrade Spy remains in play and is therefore another body to throw into Dread Return.
    Mountain Caverns, Lackey, Go.

    If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.

  16. #476

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    I like the primer. Your very style of writing reflects the simple nature of the deck. Well done.

    About that passage:


    How would 2 Dread Return help you in such a situation?
    When playing with only 1 Dread Return you can keep T1-kill hands with 2 Narcomoebae only if your Millspell goes by the name of "Balustrade Spy" AND if you have 2 more Narcomoebae in your deck. People tend to forget that Balustrade Spy remains in play and is therefore another body to throw into Dread Return.
    I believe he meant 2 bridge from below instead of DR. With that said, I would personally always run 4 narc (as opposed to 3/2 split) in the DR version. Without spy, your opponent can kill the first narc with 2nd narc trigger on the stack.

    Another nuance about the PiF kill is that you don't have to run living wish with it. One can replace noxious revival with ToA. Living wish was added due to its synergy with LED and overall versatility.

  17. #477

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Can it be added to the primer that the living wish version of the deck will sometimes have greater flexibility in the hands it is able to keep due to the ability to get a dryad arbor/other free creature out of the board to be creature number 3 for dread return.

  18. #478

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by nudon View Post
    Thanks for writing the primer as it looks pretty solid! I did notice a small typo in the following phrase: "then accidentally your entire deck (technical term)." I think you forgot the word "grind". Also to illustrate your point that cyclers don't count as a business spells, I would edit the headers in the deck list section to reflect this. Aside from that, I thought you did a great job. :)
    I believe the accidentally intentional. It is an internet thing.
    "If magic is your crutch, cast it aside and learn to walk without it." —Teferi

  19. #479

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    I've been playing this deck since January, and I have some thoughts on the relative strength of builds using The Mimeoplasm, Angel of Glory's Rise, or Underworld Cerberus as their win condition.

    Each of those win conditions might be the best in a particular metagame. The Angel kill loses to an opponent who can cast 2 removal spells, a huge Triskelion can't win against a Leyline of Sanctity or Solitary Confinement. Online, where I play, many decks have 4 Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, and/or Abrupt Decay. No one plays Leyline of Sanctity in the main and few people play Enchantress at all. This means that the Angel kill is much more likely to run into an opponent who can disrupt it. In game 2, I only need to swap out one card (usually Triskelion) to get a new kill available (Giant Solifuge), and many opponents who are unfamiliar with the deck are going to sideboard in the almost-useless Leyline of Sanctity.

    There's also the rare circumstance when it's worthwhile to cast one of the win condition creatures. I have won multiple games in the mirror by hardcasting a Triskelion. I once won against mono-red burn with a hardcast Lord of Extinction. I struggle to imagine a circumstance in which Laboratory Maniac or Azami would be worth casting, and Angel of Glory's Rise would hardly ever be possible to cast.

    The new Cerberus kill is supposed to increase consistency by reducing the number of dedicated kill cards in the combo. Unfortunately it hurts the combo's consistency by requiring a Street Wraith and a Cabal Therapy to attain the same resilience against counterspells and removal as the Angel kill. Chrome Mox becomes slightly worse because it can't imprint Wild Cantor or Street Wraith now (however, there is an extra Cabal Therapy to imprint when circumstances allow). The Cabal Therapy sacrificing Cerberus does let you force the opponent to discard any number of a particular removal spell you may have seen in their hand. Street Wraith replacing fast mana weakens the deck because it's hard to assess an opening hand with a Street Wraith in it. Since it only replaces one card (probably a Tinder Wall), this is a very slight change.

    In conclusion, the Cerberus kill is marginally less consistent and marginally more resilient than the Angel kill. Neither is better than The Mimeoplasm for the MTGO metagame, because The Mimeoplasm kills are able to ignore removal.

    Here's the decklist I play on MTGO right now, feel free to critique it:

    4 Balustrade Spy
    4 Undercity Informer
    3 Narcomoeba
    2 Bridge from Below
    2 Cabal Therapy
    1 Dread Return
    1 The Mimeoplasm
    1 Triskelion
    1 Lord of Extinction
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Summoner's Pact
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cabal Ritual
    4 Manamorphose
    2 Tinder Wall
    2 Grim Monolith
    1 Wild Cantor
    4 Pact of Negation

    Sideboard:
    1 Worldspine Wurm
    1 Giant Solifuge
    1 Narcomoeba
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    4 Chancellor of the Annex
    4 Leyline of the Void

  20. #480

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    I like the Cerebrus kill just fine, not being able to imprint the Street Wraith or Wild Cantor is of little consequence, but I still think the Sutured Ghoul kill is either the best or one of the best kills because it's immune to Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker. I suppose it's not a big deal tho' because it's essentially just turning a Pithing Needle into another copy of Grafdigger's Cage, so the Cerebrus kill "wins out" for me because it's the most efficient kill between the MD and SB in terms of overall card slots (Street Wraith is far from a dead card) and it lets you play 4 Xantid Swarms which is the biggest argument against the Sutured Ghoul kill IMO.

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