I encouraged sherwinatormtg to stream a list with 2 destroy the evidence and 1 Tangled Florahedron
He got a 5-0 right away. It looked strong in a few hands but was never actually cast. :shrug: ?
Linking to the original hermit Druid might be nice for histories sake. https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Extended..._Part_Two_deck
This is awesome.
Today, I finished stuffing a car in Jersey City this morning, ate an incredibly messy and delicious sangwich and showed my girlfriend my highschool stomping grounds in Connecticut, and just collapsed into a chair in my new apartment in New Hampshire. This is the first time I've driven a car since September, so I'm fried. It might take me a bit to make updates.
Is Sherwinator interested in contributing? I'd been planning to message him before the move because I've been watching his successes, but I haven't had the time.
Maybe I should've just PMed all this. Long day. Need decompression.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
The 5-0 list I designed for sherwinator (mentioned above) got posted.
Sorry, didn’t realize people would respond so fast. Technically below is an edit:
The changes are basically-2 thoughtseize -1 cabal ritual +2 wincons +1 tap land. The reasoning being that the biggest problem for the deck is no wincon, so more wincons should equal less mulligans.
An example hand where the changes look good is destroy the evidence, dark ritual, cabal therapy, florahedron, turntimber, petal. That’s a t1 win. The stock hand would be thoughtseize, dark ritual, Cabal therapy, cabal ritual, turntimber, lotus petal which is a forced mulligan.
Previously oops couldn’t run destroy since it didn’t have any lands to target. With 8 lands it should work most games, and tangled florahedron was added as pactable lands in an emergency.
Can you explain the upsides to having Florahedron? Pacting for it doesn't seem great... Is it literally just a CitP Tapped land?
What does Destroy the Evidence add? Between the 8 Rogues and 4 Pacts, there is good consistency already. Is the added redundancy better than interaction (like MD Thoughtseize)?
The list is experimental but the thought is that is a pactable land for destroy. Example hand where it looks good would be petal, rit, rit, destroy the evidence, pact of negation, summoners pact, Narcomoeba. You are aware that pact can’t get either spy effect right?
Edit: the reason for destroy is that the critical item for oops is having a wincon. With 8 finishers you will mull 35%! Of sevens just for not having a wincon. With 10 wincons that decreases to 26%.
Edit2: post board, a etb tapped green land is arguably better than the 4th cabal ritual anyways. Helps cast nature’s claim and force of Vigor, and lets you beat deafening silence, Thalia, and Trinisphere.
I'm still gaining experience with the deck, but it feels like those tweaks make the glass cannon more fragile to disruption.
Results speak for themself, and tweaking is good. Just adding to the dialogue!
For sure this could be making the deck worse. Directly you do lose 2 thoughtseizes. The thought is that overall by keeping more 7s you can keep more hands with wins and disruption or can go off twice. For every hand you have a spy and a destroy that could have been a thoughtseize, you will have a hand with mana, pact of negation and destroy that would have been a thoughtseize.
It could be that it’s too mana intensive for that to be true, but that’s the idea anyways.
In the end, you just need to track your games. Are you losing/mulling hands because they don’t have a wincon more? Or because they don’t have mana or disruption? I think the former is much more common and my build is a promising solution. But I could be wrong.
Putting my money where my mouth is and 10 random sample hands with the relevant cards. Assuming DTE would be thoughtseize and TF would be cabal ritual. TS=turntimber symbiosis
- Hand 1: DTE, SSG, Petal, AA, UI, SP, BS.
- You would need to slow down a turn to cast that thoughtseize which I think may be incorrect. Slight win for thoughtseize.
- Hand 2: DTE, SSG, DRit, Cantor, PoN, AA, Drit
- This is a turn 1 protected win with DTE and a mull otherwise. Massive win for DTE.
- Hand 3: DTE, narco, SP, PoN, TS, TF, ESG.
- You need 1-2 more mana but that is much more likely to top deck than a wincon. Slight win for DTE.
- Hand 4: TF, SP, SSG, UI, TS, AA, petal.
- Cabal ritual doesn’t do much other than make you get more blown out by force of negation. Even.
- Hand 5: DTE, PoN, TS, BS, Dreturn, UI, ESG
- You aren’t getting anywhere regardless with no black IMS. Even.
- Hand 6: TF, BS, UI, DTE, AA, cantor, Crit.
- Florahedron lets this hand go off twice instead of 0 times with a second cabal rit. Big win for TF
- Hand 7: DTE, BFB, SSG, AA, narco, AA, PoN.
- Hand needs 2 mana for a protected win but that’s way more likely than drawing a wincon and a mana. Slight win for DTE
- Hand 8: TF, AA, ESG, TS, Drit, SP, SP
- No wincon, irrelevant.
- Hand 9 TF, AA, CRit, UI, narco, narco, ctherapy.
- Too many narcos in your hand but TF at least makes the UI castable. Slight win TF
- Hand 10 DTE, SP, Narco, Drit, BS, TO, UI
- No black ims. Irrelevant.
Is TF better than Shatterskull Smashing? Assuming the extra mana source is an improvement, is there an actual benefit for it to be G instead of R? SS coming into play untapped makes it a better card to draw, and is arguably better in your opener too, right?
Green does help cast natures claim and force of Vigor. The benefit of it being a green creature is that if you have mana and destroy the evidence but no agadeems or turntimber, you can summoners pact for a land to target.
Shatter skull would be better to draw naturally agreed.
From a math point of view, you will have a land to target with DTE 60% of the time with 8 lands, 65% of the time with 9 lands, and 80% with 9 lands plus 4 pacts.
I haven’t proved it that outweighs the times you draw it naturally though.
Hope I'm not picking nits, but I thought I should chime in.
Bear in mind that Summoner's Pact only finds green creatures, so it doesn't get us our win conditions.
Unless I'm missing something, it looks like you're short to cast DtE unless you pass the turn (into Wasteland?) with that hand.
Please don't take any of what I'm about to say as criticism; I'm just kicking ideas around. I like the look of the Florahedron plan, but is it worth including just to shore up Destroy the Evidence? For that matter, do we really need two copies of Destroy the Evidence? Any "ninth Rogue" is going to have a weakness, so is it better to run ten win conditions than to just mulligan for nine and accept that one is just a worse version of the other eight? Also, if we're going to double down on green spell-lands, why couldn't we just run Worldly Tutor instead of Tangly and/or Destroy the Evidence?
I've edited this post because I realize I wasn't being very clear above. I guess I'm just wondering whether we should be running dedicated support for DtE(s) when there are other options that don't require us to have a land on the field and that also feed Force of Vigor.
I'd been experimenting along different lines before you mentioned Destroy the Evidence. I'm most concerned about our just hitting a brick wall given the fact that our opponents now have access to four more copies of Force. I'd been considering switching one Cabal Ritual for a third Thoughtseize/Therapy. Anybody tried anything similar?
EDIT: Another quick question: Why Florahedron specifically? Does casting him as a mana duder seem feasible?
More info going into the primer soon!
Last edited by Ronald Deuce; 03-12-2021 at 12:03 AM.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
I think Destroy the Evidence is legitimate, just adding more of the pseudo lands to enable it opens up other options like Hope of Ghirapor and Unmask or casting multiple threats to break counter walls. Cabal Ritual and extra copies of Cabal Therapy are kind of trash regardless, I wouldn't mind more Daze protection that enables win conditions and Hopes out of the board one bit - and the 8 Force of Will argument has always been countered by Chancellor anyway. If I am paying any mana for disruption and skipping a turn for it, then it had better be for something a whole lot better than discard that they can possibly just ignore.
wordly tutor is a topdeck tutor, so you are slowing down a full turn on 4 copies of summoner's pact. Whereas tangle is only 1 copy vs 1 copy of cabal ritual, which is already pretty bad.
You could play Kazandu Mammoth instead, but there are no other green creatures that are also playable as lands. Dryad arbor screws up your combo.
if you think rogue 10 is worse than more mana its possible we should stay just at 8 rogues
Good point. I guess I'm reluctant to lean more heavily on Summoner's Pacts because they're so all in, and I'm still musing on whether we really want to cut Cabal Rituals below 3 because multiple black mana lets us fire a Thoughtseize or a Therapy before we play out a Rogue. Doesn't mean the Florahedron strategy isn't an improvement, though, which it may well be.
Yeah, the mammoth is the one I was thinking of. I just wondered whether there was a specific reason to pick Florahedron.
Don't get me wrong: I want to find at least one extra Rogue effect for the deck. I'm just curious as to whether we need extra support for only one copy of Destroy the Evidence. It feels hard to justify NOT running something like Florahedron if we go above a singleton.
I notice, by the way, that a number of the blue-heavy lists from late last year ran several additional lands. They look less streamlined to me, so maybe that just takes the deck down a path we don't want to follow. Just thought I'd mention it.
EDIT: I forgot to mention something about Worldly Tutor that's important: It doesn't require us to expend all our mana at once to use it, and that's actually pretty important given that hitting five mana (as required by Destroy the Evidence) is a bit of a task with this deck.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
I just went with the cheapest creature in case chumming comes up. Mammoth could be better if you win some amount of postboard games by spirit guide beats.
Maybe we dont need Florahedron. I didn’t condition on mana availability. It’s probably impossible for this deck to get to 5 mana without a land or double dark ritual. Maybe we just run 2 payoffs 0 creature land 4 cabal ritual?
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
I wonder if Once Upon a Time has merit? It finds mana spirits and rogues.
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