Oops, All Spells! (Formerly The Rogue Hermit)

[leegoo]

@leegoo: Running Bayou ruins the entire combo. Unless you get a land grant you can't even win. Entomb plus Unearth is a two-card combo so it's mostly useless anyway compared to the normal ways to win. If you think 7 creatures plus 4 Living Wish is too little you can run Infernal Tutor.

@Bahamuth: Belcher requires 7 mana which is more than the 11 existing ways we have to win (seven of them cost 4 and four of them cost 6). Replacing Living Wish with Charbelcher is not out of the question, but it also prevents us from playing utility cards like Cavern of Souls. The plan isn't really to ever board completely out of the strategy.

IT is garbage... Living wish is only marginally better. I don't think the reanimator strategy is the way to go, but there's a list to work from if somebody has the interest. Running bayou is probably an unfortunate necessity if you aren't running tallmen/opal.

[MatsT]

If you don't board out of the strategy, then there's no way the deck will ever be better than R/G Belcher, as you fold to way too many cards.

That's simply not true. When you are on the play there are extremely few ways to interact with the deck. Thoughtseize/Crypt/Relic etc does very little since they're simply too slow. Leyline is difficult yes, but right now very few if any decks play Leyline. Force of Will is of course an issue, but you could bring in Pact of Negation, use Cabal Therapies or Living Wish for Cavern to try to get around it. Surgical extraction can be handled similarly. When you are on the play (or have a slow draw) Thoughtseize can be a problem, but you could use things like Leyline of Sanctity to protect yourself (also stops Nihil Spellbomb or Tormod's Crypt). I also didn't say that we shouldn't bring in Charbelcher, I just say we probably shouldn't take out the entire main combo. It's fully possible to take out 4 cards from the main deck for Charbelchers without completely skipping the main plan. If you draw a Charbelcher and 7 mana you win with that, but if you don't there's still a decent chance they didn't draw their hate.

The reason RG Belcher isn't really a viable deck isn't that it gets hated out, it is that it simply folds to itself too often. There are plenty of combo decks that are easier to hate than RG Belcher but that are still better since they are more consistent. The fact that this is easier to hate doesn't mean that it's worse.

[catmint]

The reason RG Belcher isn't really a viable deck isn't that it gets hated out, it is that it simply folds to itself too often. There are plenty of combo decks that are easier to hate than RG Belcher but that are still better since they are more consistent. The fact that this is easier to hate doesn't mean that it's worse.

The stats of loosing to itself are also way better for Belcher than for Undercity Spy. The only advantage undercity spy has over belcher is that once comboed out the win does not depend on a bunch of tokens getting there.

[phazonmutant]

The stats of loosing to itself are also way better for Belcher than for Undercity Spy. The only advantage undercity spy has over belcher is that once comboed out the win does not depend on a bunch of tokens getting there.

For the record, I think the ways for decks to interact quickly enough with Empty is more or less as common as the fast grave hate for this deck. BG decks run Deathrite and Engineered Plague, random decks run EE, Miracles runs Terminus and Detention Sphere. Hell, some Show and Tell decks even can tutor for Clasm preboard.
People have cut their grave hate a lot.

At SCG Atlanta, I heard about I think 3 people playing this deck, but none did well. I didn't talk to any of them, but at least some of them were running the bad Prosack list from what I heard.

[nudon]

What's your main boarding plan if you board into the Belcher plan?

I haven't had the time to test it but I was thinking about boarding 4 belchers into the living wish slot. I don't think it's a good idea to fully board out of the laboratory maniac win-con. Maybe something along the lines of -4 living wish, -1 angel of glory's rise, -1 azami, +4 goblin charbelcher, +2 cabal therapy.

IT is garbage... Living wish is only marginally better. I don't think the reanimator strategy is the way to go, but there's a list to work from if somebody has the interest. Running bayou is probably an unfortunate necessity if you aren't running tallmen/opal.

I agree IT is garbage in this deck but I think living wish is decent. Running bayou completely wrecks the combo because there will be many times where you can't get the land out of the deck. I've playtested this and it doesn't work.

[Bahamuth]

That's simply not true. When you are on the play there are extremely few ways to interact with the deck. Thoughtseize/Crypt/Relic etc does very little since they're simply too slow. Leyline is difficult yes, but right now very few if any decks play Leyline. Force of Will is of course an issue, but you could bring in Pact of Negation, use Cabal Therapies or Living Wish for Cavern to try to get around it. Surgical extraction can be handled similarly. When you are on the play (or have a slow draw) Thoughtseize can be a problem, but you could use things like Leyline of Sanctity to protect yourself (also stops Nihil Spellbomb or Tormod's Crypt). I also didn't say that we shouldn't bring in Charbelcher, I just say we probably shouldn't take out the entire main combo. It's fully possible to take out 4 cards from the main deck for Charbelchers without completely skipping the main plan. If you draw a Charbelcher and 7 mana you win with that, but if you don't there's still a decent chance they didn't draw their hate.

The reason RG Belcher isn't really a viable deck isn't that it gets hated out, it is that it simply folds to itself too often. There are plenty of combo decks that are easier to hate than RG Belcher but that are still better since they are more consistent. The fact that this is easier to hate doesn't mean that it's worse.

I wrote a program that can goldfish Belcher. In 10000 goldfishes for 7, 6 and 5 cards, I found that Belcher can win on turn 1 in 78% of it's games. I don't know what kind of numbers this deck will get (I'll get working on that soon), but I doubt it's much higher than this deck.

You list a bunch of cards you think you can beat, but the exact same thing holds for Belcher, except that it's in general better against counters. If this deck cannot board into a non-graveyard strategy, I think it would have to have an insane winrate.

[plimplam]

I've been testing this:

4 Undercity informer
4 Balustrade spy
3 Worldly tutor

4 Gitaxian probe
4 Street waith

4 Elvish spirit guide
4 Simian spirit guide
4 Summoner's pact
4 Dark ritual
3 Cabal ritual
4 Manamorphose
1 Wild cantor

4 Lotus petal
4 Chrome mox

1 cabal therapy/phantasmagorian
1 Dread return
4 Narcomoeba
3 Manyac combo

Side 1:

4 Goblin charbelcher
4 Lion's eye diamond
4 Spoils of the vault
3 Pact of negation

Side 2:

4 Goblin charbelcher
4 LED
4 ETW
3 Seething song

Thoughts ??

[catmint]

I've been testing this:

....

Thoughts ??

I think your post is not optimal. Wordly tutor, cycling cards and SB plans have been discussed. If you want to discuss further (which is totally welcome), the best thing is to explain why you tested with this specific choices and what your results and conclusions are and/or whic open questions you would like other people to adress (after reading through the thread of course).

[tianyuan2k4]

I wrote a program that can goldfish Belcher. In 10000 goldfishes for 7, 6 and 5 cards, I found that Belcher can win on turn 1 in 78% of it's games. I don't know what kind of numbers this deck will get (I'll get working on that soon), but I doubt it's much higher than this deck.

Interesting. I have a standard Belcher deck for sometime but never got 78%. I mean in order to win turn 1, I need 7 mana + Belcher. That's much harder than making 4 mana + 1 informer/spy. Unless counting ETW for 14 goblins as T1 win, I just don't see the possibility of 78% T1 win with regular belcher. What's your criteria for T1 win by the way?

[Bahamuth]

Interesting. I have a standard Belcher deck for sometime but never got 78%. I mean in order to win turn 1, I need 7 mana + Belcher. That's much harder than making 4 mana + 1 informer/spy. Unless counting ETW for 14 goblins as T1 win, I just don't see the possibility of 78% T1 win with regular belcher. What's your criteria for T1 win by the way?

Of course I am counting tokens as a turn 1 win. I even count dropping Belcher win mana in play as a turn 1 win, since the deck rarely ever loses from those positions.

[Upstate Jimmy]

Bahamuth, I always run 1 misers Belcher in the MD, and it's been working out very well. I also run 3 more belcher in the side, to diversify threats post board, as well as four spoils of the vault, for use in the full Belcher transformation. I was testing against Jund last night (kept the combo in, but took out 1 spy, 1 living wish and 1 infernal tutor), and the ability to win through a T1 Nihil spell bomb in post board games is awesome, (managed that twice).

[nudon]

Bahamuth, I always run 1 misers Belcher in the MD, and it's been working out very well. I also run 3 more belcher in the side, to diversify threats post board, as well as four spoils of the vault, for use in the full Belcher transformation. I was testing against Jund last night (kept the combo in, but took out 1 spy, 1 living wish and 1 infernal tutor), and the ability to win through a T1 Nihil spell bomb in post board games is awesome, (managed that twice).

Jimmy, what cards do you board out for the full belcher transformation? I count at least 15 cards you need to take out (7 informers/spies and 8 combo pieces).

[Upstate Jimmy]

For the Full Transform I take out all 4 Combo Pieces, 4 Narcoameobas, and 4 Balustrade spies. I bring in 4 Spoils, 3 Belcher, 4 Pact of Negation and an Undercity Informer. The informer comes in because, even though he's just chrome mox fuel, unlike Balustrade Spy or Dread Return he is theoretically castable, and you don't want to bring in anything else from the wish board (although theoretically you could make a case for bringing in chewer).

For reference, here's the Board.

4 Pact of Negation
3 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Spoils of the Vault
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Swamp
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Undercity Informer

The only time I could see doing the full transform is when facing excellent graveyard hate + force of will and/or Leyline of the void.

Against good permanent based hate that's not leyline (deathrite, relic, crypt, rest in peace) the current plan is just to side out a spy, an infernal tutor and a living wish to add 3 Belchers (I run 1 main). That way you have both the option of racing their hate, and winning through it.

Against Force of Will decks, and decks that run non permanent based hate (surgical, expatriate, faerie macabre) the current plan is to board in pacts, and 1 belcher, and take out some number of wishes, tutor and manamorphose. Siding in more than 1 belcher here might also be a good idea, depending on hate density.

At the moment, I think the full transform should only happen when the combo is cut off on two fronts: Speed (they have force) and quality hate.

Also, is anyone going to play at SCG Edison next weekend? I'm brining my list there to battle, so hopefully I do yah'll proud. (knock on wood)

[Claymore]

I find this deck very interesting and wanted to cross post something that might be relevant, from the Belcher thread user Final Fortune:

Belcher isn't exactly an archetype that cares about what it's going to top deck, if you don't have Leyline of Sanctity and/or Chancellor of the Annex in your SB then you're going to coin flip vs Jund. All that matters is that you're playing the most efficient card for the job at any moment in time, if you brick on your 8th card on the draw so be it - I think a 0 mana counter to Force of Will is worth it.

It's the core 52 cards with Pyretic Ritual and Chancellor of the Tangle and the 15 is 1 Empty the Warrens and 14 different disruption/protection slots - a mix of Pyroblast, Guttoral Response, Autumn's Veil, Xantid Swarm, Leyline of Sanctity and Chancellor of the Annex depending on the meta.

It's not theoretical, I've used the white disruption cards in Belcher for awhile to good effect, not preparing for discard in this metagame is just incredibly stupid, especially when preparing for discard is more effective than preparing for counterspells in terms of your disruption's cost efficiency.

[Ziveeman]

Prosak's version (+1 Phantasmogorian, so 61 cards) of the Undercity Informer deck got 2nd at a Magic-League trial:

http://magic-league.com/deck/80329/legacy.html#Burrito Breakfast194361

1 Dread Return
1 Grim Monolith
4 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Ritual
4 Street Wraith
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Narcomoeba
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Wild Cantor
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Phantasmagorian
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informer
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal

4 Pact of Negation
4 Unmask
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Chain of Vapor

Looks like it beat Cloudpost, Esper Stoneblade, and Jund, losing to a BUGr Tempo deck in the finals.

[nudon]

Finally had some success with creating the sb (same MD as before):
http://deckstats.net/deck-1936417-06...c8b141c61.html

SB: 1 Balustrade Spy - sac to therapy
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls - anti-blue
SB: 1 Swamp - mana fix
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer - game 1 silver bullet
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker - game 1 answer to DRS/scavenging ooze
SB: 2 Nature's Claim - anti-gy hate
SB: 4 Chancellor of the Annex - could be pact of negation/unmask but synergizes with belcher more and better on the draw against discard
SB: 4 Goblin Charbelcher - possible game 3 transformation to beat heavy gy hate/counters

[Upstate Jimmy]

Annex looks spicy. I might have to try that out. Also, last of my cards came in the mail today. SOOOO PUMPED!

[nudon]

I find this deck very interesting and wanted to cross post something that might be relevant, from the Belcher thread user Final Fortune:

Thanks Claymore. The suggestions of chancellor of the annex seems to help a lot. Unlike pact of negation, it isn't dead with LED or on the draw against gy hate/discard.

Annex looks spicy. I might have to try that out. Also, last of my cards came in the mail today. SOOOO PUMPED!

Nice, good luck! I actually removed the 2 nature's claim as well and now have a 3-3 split between leyline of sanctity and chancellor of the annex. Both aren't great if you have 2 copies in the opening hand.

In general, here's my sb decision against the current meta of jund: -1 azami, -1 angel of glory's rise, -2 manamorphose, -2 chancellor of the tangle, +3 leyline, +3 chancellor of the annex. The 4 belchers come in whenever your opponent has a large amount of gy hate, leyline of the void, or macabre.

[Kaslan]

Any thoughts on this version of the combo ?

It was 4 Tutor effects and some disruption and I think that the mana production of this version is more stable


12 Metalcraft and food for therapy-Culling the Weak-Diabolic Intent

4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
4 Ornithopter

12 mana

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal


8 ramp

4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual


4 tutor
4 Diabolic Intent

16 combo

4 Narcomoeba
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informer
1 Dread Return

8 disruption spells
4 Pact of Negation
4 Cabal Therapy

[rakevinwr]

Any thoughts on this version of the combo ?

It was 8 Tutor effects and some disruption and I think that the mana production of this version is more stable


12 Metalcraft and food for therapy-Culling the Weak-Diabolic Intent

4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
4 Ornithopter

12 mana

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal


8 ramp

4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual


8 tutor

4 Summoner's Pact
4 Diabolic Intent

16 combo

4 Narcomoeba
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informer
1 Dread Return

4 discard

4 Cabal Therapy

Why run Summoner's Pact in this version? You have no green creatures :)