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Thread: The Rogue Hermit

  1. #941
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    -rob

  2. #942

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    I don't get the point of Sphinx, it's a dead card in and of itself so why not take the mulligan to 6 instead of the Scry to 3 if you don't have a win condition in your hand? Even Street Wraith is more of a card to feed Chrome Mox than it is a card to find a win condition, cycling chaff needs to serve a 2ndary function IMO.

  3. #943
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Sphinx is definitely a win condition, I've been pressured playing against it, it also filters your first draws and can be pitched to chrome mox, like any card, and to FoW.

  4. #944
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    I don't get the point of Sphinx, it's a dead card in and of itself so why not take the mulligan to 6 instead of the Scry to 3 if you don't have a win condition in your hand? Even Street Wraith is more of a card to feed Chrome Mox than it is a card to find a win condition, cycling chaff needs to serve a 2ndary function IMO.
    Pettdan pretty much hit it on the head. We've got enough trouble ensuring we'll have a rogue, an initializer, and enough mana to get there in a seven-card hand (and nowadays, even after mulligans). So we're getting something that helps us dig for our win-con and shores up our combo-protection by working with Force of Will.

    Whether Force is better than Unmask is, I think, still an open question and one that depends on the matchup. But I've found that our mulligans are a lot worse than they used to be (losing Probe was really bad), so I don't think we can count on having the fastest hands in the West anymore. Sure, cantrip effects were never what we really wanted in this deck, but without them, we're looking for needles in haystacks. If we can't either protect our combo or fix our openers, even at the cost of one card, I'm not really sure what we can do. And I'm pretty thoroughly persuaded that Chancellor of the Annex isn't what we're looking for.

    But again, test it and see what you think. I'm really interested to hear what people are up to these days when it comes to tweaking the base deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  5. #945

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    I goldfished 100 games with Sphinx of Foresight and the card is god awful, I compared it to 100 games of mulligning to 6 on the play and most of the mulligans more consistently found a win condition and went off faster. Something tells me the people who suggested Sphinx don't understand when to keep and when to mulligan, if you're having consistency issues then SB Chancellor of the Annex and play Manamorphose instead.

  6. #946
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    I goldfished 100 games with Sphinx of Foresight and the card is god awful, I compared it to 100 games of mulligning to 6 on the play and most of the mulligans more consistently found a win condition and went off faster. Something tells me the people who suggested Sphinx don't understand when to keep and when to mulligan, if you're having consistency issues then SB Chancellor of the Annex and play Manamorphose instead.
    So assuming we're running identical lists, we're having two wildly differing experiences with the Sphinx. So my first question is what list you were running.

    My next question is what you were trying to get the deck to do (aside from win the game, obv.). What I mean is that the traditional approach of the deck is "Gotta go fast." I still think we want to do that, but I don't think it's feasible to assume we'll be getting T1s 45% of the time anymore; we've lost too much free digging and haven't found a surrogate ninth Rogue worth its weight in butts. Back when I played the deck regularly before jumping ship for Storm, I found I'd win or lose just as often if I went off on turn 1 as if I went off on turn 2 or sometimes turn 3—speed was less the determining factor in victory than the contents of our opponents' hands. So as awesome and flashy as it is to just get there immediately, opponents' having Force of Will and Daze was always ultimately more important than our speed. (Obviously the more time our opponents had to dig for disruption, the worse off we'd be. No argument from me there.)

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm not looking to drag race anymore with this deck; I'm looking to beat disruption, which was always the thing that kept this deck from being legitimized in the eyes of the community. We all know that Elves is dead in the water against us, but not a lot of people play Elves.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  7. #947
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Can you run your test with my serum Powder list?
    -rob

  8. #948
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    Can you run your test with my serum Powder list?
    Sorry, were you asking me or Final Fortune? I have not had the opportunity.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  9. #949
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    FF, but anyone can:)
    -rob

  10. #950

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    FF, but anyone can:)
    Ran fine for gold fishing, I think it could work if you had a SB to cut Serum Powder and the duplicates for disruption vs blue.

    I had a similar list awhile back, but with 4 Bridge from Below instead of Street Wraiths and 2 Flame Kin Zealots instead of Lotleth Giants for maximum redundancy on RFGing Narcomoebas. With double kill conditions, I would cut all copies of Cabal Therapy - you don't have to discard combo pieces in your hand when you have duplicates in your deck and 99% of people counter your win condition anyway and you're not comming back off the top deck regardless (you can board 1 if they get cute tho and steal a game from them).

  11. #951
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    sure, with 2 dread return, 2 cabal and 2 lotleth i only died a handfull of times due to having something in hand that i couldn't get rid of.

    you probably do need 1 cabal to sacrifice a single narcomoeba to get your zombie chains started. haven't considered sb yet.

    lotleth is also pretty cool in the aspect that you can potentially dread return it twice for a ton of damage if you are less than 20 guys in your graveyard.
    -rob

  12. #952

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    So assuming we're running identical lists, we're having two wildly differing experiences with the Sphinx. So my first question is what list you were running.

    My next question is what you were trying to get the deck to do (aside from win the game, obv.). What I mean is that the traditional approach of the deck is "Gotta go fast." I still think we want to do that, but I don't think it's feasible to assume we'll be getting T1s 45% of the time anymore; we've lost too much free digging and haven't found a surrogate ninth Rogue worth its weight in butts. Back when I played the deck regularly before jumping ship for Storm, I found I'd win or lose just as often if I went off on turn 1 as if I went off on turn 2 or sometimes turn 3—speed was less the determining factor in victory than the contents of our opponents' hands. So as awesome and flashy as it is to just get there immediately, opponents' having Force of Will and Daze was always ultimately more important than our speed. (Obviously the more time our opponents had to dig for disruption, the worse off we'd be. No argument from me there.)

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm not looking to drag race anymore with this deck; I'm looking to beat disruption, which was always the thing that kept this deck from being legitimized in the eyes of the community. We all know that Elves is dead in the water against us, but not a lot of people play Elves.
    This deck never relied on cantrips, it always relied on mulligans, to find win conditions. If the reduced numbers of cantrips made finding black mana harder, then MD Manamorphose or Wild Cantors can solve that problem for you. If your opponent mulligans into Force of Will and Surgical Extraction on the draw, then Chancellor of the Annex locks them out of the game for you. If the opponent is on the play, then you have Unmask and the draw to be able to cast it.

    Nothing else works, Scry 3 and pass the turn into a land drop is exactly what causes you to lose the games mentioned and it is even less consistent then taking a mulligan on the draw as well.

    The deck abuses the mulligan and a 4 mana win condition to be able to win off of a 5 card hand, if you are holding a win condition and a Street Wraith to find a black mana off the top then you are playing the deck completely wrong. The cyclers should only ever fish for the 4th mana, if that, and 99% of the people who ran Gitaxian Probe over Chancellor of the Tangle were just really bad at mulligans.

  13. #953
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    99% of the people who ran Gitaxian Probe over Chancellor of the Tangle were just really bad at mulligans.
    I—what?
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  14. #954

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    I—what?
    Cantrips suck in this deck, they were always strictly worse than playing with more mana because the only thing they can reliably find is mana anyway. All cantrips did was convince people to keep hands they shouldnt keep over going to 6 or 5. The deck needs hard redundancy so the opening hand is clear, not chaff that adds variance.

  15. #955

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by georgjorge View Post
    I kind of see what you mean - after some testing, the "sacrifice creatures" plan is not good enough, so Culling / Shield Sphere / Intent need to be cut (or at least reduced to one or two copies). Burning-Tree Emissary is also not really needed.

    In: the full 4 Elvish Spirit Guides plus a Foul Emissary. Foul Emissary is not reliable at all in finding a Spy, but there are situations where we don't have a spy, but too much mana and a Summoning Pact in hand, and Emissary at least gives us a shot at winning those games. And I'm still convinced that this deck needs LED, and have as of yet never been sad to see it in my hand.

    The question is what the final six or seven cards in the deck should be, because nothing stands out to me as really good right now. I would probably put in another copy of a card to get the Swamp out of the deck (Lay of the Land or something), maybe a Dark Petition, maybe a Pact of Negation for non-LED hands. But after that...? I even thought of putting in three copies of Entomb and four copies of Exhume to increase the chance of going off.

    Entomb would
    - get a Spy on the table with Exhume
    - put a Narcomoeba on the table as a sac outlet (though not so needed with less Cullings and Intents)
    - make Traverse a better Spy tutor

    Exhume would
    - get a Spy on the table with Entomb
    - add an extra mana with LED out and a Spy in hand (since it doesn't target)
    - make a cheap Spy when it has been countered already

    ...but it's likely more cute than effective.

    I've tried entomb + reanimate and it was too inconsistent especially since you require two black mana.
    I have reanimate in the sb though for decks packing discard and countermagic.

  16. #956

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    This deck never relied on cantrips, it always relied on mulligans, to find win conditions. If the reduced numbers of cantrips made finding black mana harder, then MD Manamorphose or Wild Cantors can solve that problem for you. If your opponent mulligans into Force of Will and Surgical Extraction on the draw, then Chancellor of the Annex locks them out of the game for you. If the opponent is on the play, then you have Unmask and the draw to be able to cast it.

    Nothing else works, Scry 3 and pass the turn into a land drop is exactly what causes you to lose the games mentioned and it is even less consistent then taking a mulligan on the draw as well.

    The deck abuses the mulligan and a 4 mana win condition to be able to win off of a 5 card hand, if you are holding a win condition and a Street Wraith to find a black mana off the top then you are playing the deck completely wrong. The cyclers should only ever fish for the 4th mana, if that, and 99% of the people who ran Gitaxian Probe over Chancellor of the Tangle were just really bad at mulligans.
    This man knows what he's talking about. I play zero cantrips and I'm loving it (4 Wild Cantor, which can be played off a chrome mox or chancellor of the tangle). Not playing lab maniac removes the need for street wraith. However, cutting black cards can be bad for chrome mox so I'm testing some unmasks in the main. A couple tinder walls also helps with mana.

  17. #957
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    The fact that all the top-8 lists I've been able to find from the past year ran quads of Street Wraith and as many Probes as the format banlist allowed, combined with the sheer paucity of top-8 lists, suggests that you're incorrect and—perhaps more importantly—that we should be innovating. But whatever.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  18. #958

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    The fact that all the top-8 lists I've been able to find from the past year ran quads of Street Wraith and as many Probes as the format banlist allowed, combined with the sheer paucity of top-8 lists, suggests that you're incorrect and—perhaps more importantly—that we should be innovating. But whatever.
    I don't care about that, you can gold fish the deck and compare your 7 with a cantrip and no critical card to your mulligan to 6 and judge for yourself, with the new mulligan rules the reality now is even more in my favour. I trust in the mulligan to 6 more than the draw for 1, all the deck wants is consistent starting hands.

    As far as Manamorphose and Stree Wraith, both of those cards are ok because they filter for black mana, even when you gamble with the draw off of Manamorphose and lose you can still ritual and cast the 3 mana hermit and pass.

    Wild Cantors are fine too, they are just a literal different in terms of playstyle because you get the Wild Cantor, go play lines instead of the Manamorphose top deck gambles for the 4th mana to activate the hermit on the same turn. I could go, and have gone, for either but I think that Manamorphose being better in doubles in your hand puts it over the top for me right now.

  19. #959
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    with the new mulligan rules the reality now is even more in my favour. I trust in the mulligan to 6 more than the draw for 1, all the deck wants is consistent starting hands.
    I agree with this wholeheartedly. As its been configured since 2013 (though sans Probe), this deck will get a HUGE boost if the new mulligan rules take effect, and cards like the Chancellors will become truly absurd on the play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Wild Cantors are fine too, they are just a literal different in terms of playstyle because you get the Wild Cantor, go play lines instead of the Manamorphose top deck gambles for the 4th mana to activate the hermit on the same turn. I could go, and have gone, for either but I think that Manamorphose being better in doubles in your hand puts it over the top for me right now.
    Just for clarification, are you saying you think both Cantor and Manamorphose are good to run in multiples right now, or are you saying that you think multiple Manamorphoses are better? Thanks in advance!
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  20. #960

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    I agree with this wholeheartedly. As its been configured since 2013 (though sans Probe), this deck will get a HUGE boost if the new mulligan rules take effect, and cards like the Chancellors will become truly absurd on the play.

    You can run 4 Wild Cantor or 4 Manamorphose and 1 Wild Cantor as you like, personally I prefer the latter because even tho' I don't rely on the draw at all you can still mise a Pact of Negation or extra mana for Force of Will or Daze.

    It depends a lot on how opponents react to Manamorphose, if enemies counter it instead of your win condition then Wild Cantor gains value because you're risking less resources into the mana filter. Furthermore it depends on whether or not Spell Snare, Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm are a part of the equation, as they can target Manamorphose but not Wild Cantor.

    It comes down to preference for a stronger card or a more resilent card vs disruption, take your pick.



    Just for clarification, are you saying you think both Cantor and Manamorphose are good to run in multiples right now, or are you saying that you think multiple Manamorphoses are better? Thanks in advance!
    Manamorphose is the more powerful card, while Wild Cantor is the more consistent card. It depends on whether or not your opponents will counter the Manamorphose or wait to counter the win condition, the better they are the more likely they will counter the Manamorphose and the value of Wild Cantor goes up as a result because it's harder to counter and you invest less resources into it even when it is countered.

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