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Thread: The Rogue Hermit

  1. #1061
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalom View Post
    An first hand Sp+ Hermits have 80% chance. If first hand is an SP without oracle or Dread return, your next mulligan hand is an 70% 8 hermit chance...i dont think mulligan switch SP, but SP reinforce mulligan, not?
    London Mulligan has about the same chance to find Hermit as using SP.
    The main difference is SP lets you keep a 7th card, but you have to exile the first 7 (hope you didn't have an essential combo piece there).

    Serum Powder Pros:
    -Slightly higher chance of seeing Hermit, because you exiled 7 non-Hermit cards (70.6% on 2nd hand vs 65.4% from London mull)
    -Keep 7 cards in new hand
    -Improves next mulligan/SP if you have to ship that hand too

    Cons:
    -Risk of exiling combo pieces (can't use with DR or Thassa in hand, risky with Narc or Bridge)
    -If you don't need it to find Hermit, it's a dead slot that doesn't even pitch to Mox or Unmask/Force (i.e. every time you draw it and don't need it, you effectively mulliganned -1 card)

    Is that worth it overall? It might still help. It's just less of an edge than it used to be pre-London.

    It only boosts the 2nd hand by about 5%, and keeping the best 6 of 7 is still enough to go off. SP would show more of a difference after multiple mulligans/SPs, because of both the cards you exile and getting to keep a bigger hand with more resources.

  2. #1062
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Cabal Ritual is also useless without black mana. In both cases, you need other black mana. Spirit Guides can be found by OUAT, can't be countered, and are easier to use.

    Spirit Guides can't be imprinted for black, but with 25+ black cards (thanks to the new lands and Unmask) Mox has enough to imprint without CR. The older builds had a much lower black count, making CR useful to imprint. I think the deck can now outgrow CR.
    That may be, but I think it's asking a lot to cut Cabal Ritual if we choose to run so many pitch cards. (FYI, I'm probably going to be running Unmask.) Adding Unmask increases the number of cards we're throwing away, and I'm not persuaded we want to be cutting black cards when we're leaning that direction. Our multi-skull mana sources are also useful if we want to fire off a Therapy before attempting to cast a rogue, and the only other card that allows us to do that is Dark Ritual.

    Another quick thought: Agadeem's intended use (the spell side), expensive though it is, is a mode I actually can see us using because it can pull us back from the brink if we get shredded on our first combo attempt. A Cabal Ritual with Threshold makes a LOT of skulls.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  3. #1063
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Depends on the rest of your deck list. The Cabal Ritual-less list I posted above has a much higher black count (25-27) than the average Hermit list with Cabal Ritual before this set came out (<20). Despite cutting Cabal, it's better able to support Unmask than previous lists. If your black count is high enough, you shouldn't need Cabal just for the pitch cards. It just depends on the rest of the deck composition.

    When the first attempt is shredded, how often will we have threshold and a non-empty library with 1B in play, without having used Agadeem as a land or already pitching Agadeem/Cabal to Chrome Mox? There's probably some hand and game state where that's relevant, but how often is that relevant and is it worth building around?

    It might be worth cutting SSG instead of Cabals though. SSG is uncounterable but off color. The downside is SSG + Pact gives you a black IMS (Cantor), while Cabal Rit + Pact leaves you with no black IMS, so it might reduce the starting hands with black mana even though it increases the black count for pitch spells.

  4. #1064

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax- View Post
    The ETB lands are trash imo. You can't afford to keep an hand with them on the draw.

    So far im goldfishing with 8 lands and only 4 Cabal Therapy as protection.

    I think that before trying to fix my Force of Will matchup, I want to be as fast and consistent as possible, reducing mulligan % and losing to myself.

    We ALREADY have slighty more protection since Therapy has never been a 4x and the line Land ---> Therapy is very real now.
    I also have the suspect that with 8 lands you can be much more resilient to Control in game one by just brute force a Spy (OUAT helps at digging for them).

    Then post board when Surgical and GY hate is a factor, you can bring in stuff like Pact of Negation, Hope, Unmask etc...

    Veil is trash because it doesn't protect from Surgical.

    I think the key points here are:

    1. Green land, yes/no? Does it get stucked in hand too much or it's just a straight upgrade to stuff like Chancellor of the Tangle? (So far I think the answer is yes)

    2. Summoner's Pact, yes/no? With 4 extra uncounterable black mana sources, do we still need that bad card? Do we really need 8 ESG?
    Before saying no keep in mind that Pact is still +1 mana in the opener and it also has the double role of filtering to black with Cantor.

    3. How many Cantors, if any? The land Cantor line is pretty sweet but a lot of stuff can punish it, being able to filter SSG/ESG into black is also very good. I also like the fact that you can sac it to Therapy for extra protection.

    4. OUAT, yes/no? I think the card is really good but adds a lot of variance. You "only" have a 57,5% of finding a Spy in the opener with it, so keeping those hands is risky. The 2nd one is also a really bad topdeck, it gets slighty better now that we can make land drops, but it's clearly not the kind of game we want to play.
    I finished testing over the weekend,

    I cut Cabal Ritual and Chancellor of the Tangle for the Black and Green lands and am running Once Upon a Time in order to have consistent land drops, more Spirit Guides and find more threats and disruption. "This is the way"

    Any more than 1 Cabal Therapy is bad, if you're spending mana on your disruption then it should only be on colorless mana so that both lands and all of the Spirit Guides can support it. "This is the way"

    Bridge from Below is a worthless card, if you need to increase your black count than Street Wraith is the best card for consistency. "This is the way"

    Any number of Unmask is bad, if we have permanent mana sources in order to cast our disruption then there is no reason to use a such a resource intensive card that requies us to discard lands, acceleration and threats. "This is the way"

    You can't cut Summoner's Pact, 1 Wild Cantor is still necessary in order to consistently have Black mana. "This is the way."

    Pact of Negation is the most efficient disruption card in the game and not MDing it is really stupid. "This is the way"

    With that out of the way, I think you guys are sleeping on how powerful Once Upon a Time is now, the 2nd copy is actually a playable card with 12 permanent mana sources. Games tend to go on a lot longer vs Daze now, a second shot is entirely possible.

    The creature/swamp card might be good enough between imprinting for black and being a bad land that can be searched for off of OUT. I go back and forth between it and Street Wraith as a package to get to 2 lands on board. If you want to play discard, that is probably the most consistent way to do it - but it's going to be slow and I doubt that is worth activating Daze and Stifle etc.

    The big question for me is whether or not Hope should be in the SB for OUT or a MD card in place of OUT depending on whether or not you want more game vs Island decks G1 or more SB space for G2. Chancellor of the Annex is still situationaly one of the best disruption cards possible for game 3. A couple of other questions is if Chancellor of the Tangle and the Green land could make Xantid in addition to Hope legit or if Tinder Wall is any good.

  5. #1065
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    The big question for me is whether or not Hope should be in the SB for OUT or a MD card in place of OUT depending on whether or not you want more game vs Island decks G1 or more SB space for G2.
    I think SB is correct because Hope gets much better when they board out 1cmc spot removal, and it also promotes slow-rolling which is less necessary in G1s, but this needs testing.

    Pithing Needle also deserves testing in the SB. It can be cast off either land and shuts off cards like Crypt & Faerie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Any more than 1 Cabal Therapy is bad, if you're spending mana on your disruption then it should only be on colorless mana so that both lands and all of the Spirit Guides can support it. "This is the way"

    Bridge from Below is a worthless card, if you need to increase your black count than Street Wraith is the best card for consistency. "This is the way"
    Bridge works with multiple Therapies to enable multiple free discard before casting Dread Return (up to 4 Narcs + 4 Zombies to sacrifice), in case they're holding a lot of hate or you have both DR and Thassa stuck in hand. It's also insurance in case of a Narcomoeba shortage (3 bodies is now enough to both DR + Therapy).

    Traditionally Bridge and Cabal Therapy are bad in the opening hand, but now that's somewhat offset by being able to imprint them on Chrome Mox or pitch to Unmask, and Cabal Therapy can be hardcast on Agadeem hands without losing mana. Adding Unmask + Agadeem reduces the downside of drawing Therapy. Therapy can take Bridge out of your hand if you need to, and Bridge supports multiple Therapies post-Hermit. I think that's enough to make them worth running, but needs testing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    With that out of the way, I think you guys are sleeping on how powerful Once Upon a Time is now, the 2nd copy is actually a playable card with 12 permanent mana sources. Games tend to go on a lot longer vs Daze now, a second shot is entirely possible.
    I started with 4 OUAT for that reason, but after running the math on it I think it's a trap.

    In testing, when do you use OUAT? What do you get?
    Do you ever use it to dig for a Hermit when you don't have one? In those hands, your odds are almost always better by mulliganning than casting OUAT.

    If you mainly use it to get a mana source, wouldn't it be better as a mana source instead?

  6. #1066

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    I finished testing over the weekend,

    I cut Cabal Ritual and Chancellor of the Tangle for the Black and Green lands and am running Once Upon a Time in order to have consistent land drops, more Spirit Guides and find more threats and disruption. "This is the way"

    Any more than 1 Cabal Therapy is bad, if you're spending mana on your disruption then it should only be on colorless mana so that both lands and all of the Spirit Guides can support it. "This is the way"

    Bridge from Below is a worthless card, if you need to increase your black count than Street Wraith is the best card for consistency. "This is the way"

    Any number of Unmask is bad, if we have permanent mana sources in order to cast our disruption then there is no reason to use a such a resource intensive card that requies us to discard lands, acceleration and threats. "This is the way"

    You can't cut Summoner's Pact, 1 Wild Cantor is still necessary in order to consistently have Black mana. "This is the way."

    Pact of Negation is the most efficient disruption card in the game and not MDing it is really stupid. "This is the way"

    With that out of the way, I think you guys are sleeping on how powerful Once Upon a Time is now, the 2nd copy is actually a playable card with 12 permanent mana sources. Games tend to go on a lot longer vs Daze now, a second shot is entirely possible.

    The creature/swamp card might be good enough between imprinting for black and being a bad land that can be searched for off of OUT. I go back and forth between it and Street Wraith as a package to get to 2 lands on board. If you want to play discard, that is probably the most consistent way to do it - but it's going to be slow and I doubt that is worth activating Daze and Stifle etc.

    The big question for me is whether or not Hope should be in the SB for OUT or a MD card in place of OUT depending on whether or not you want more game vs Island decks G1 or more SB space for G2. Chancellor of the Annex is still situationaly one of the best disruption cards possible for game 3. A couple of other questions is if Chancellor of the Tangle and the Green land could make Xantid in addition to Hope legit or if Tinder Wall is any good.
    Are you aware that OUAT can't get the new modal lands, right? What more solid land drops are you talking about?

    You definitely want at least 2-3 Therapy since the Spies dodge a lot of interaction, like Pierce, Fluster and especially Force of Negation, and yes people will sandbag interaction, and yes you will lose to it regadless if it was a bad play or not, people just don't like to FoN a Lotus Petal and with only 1 Therapy you will just lose.

    Bridge is very necessary for the same reasons and also to not lose to stuff like Plague Engineer on Illusion, Pyrokinesis out of Goblins, removals that people will always keep in just because they don't have better cards to bring in.

    Agree on Unmask

    Agree on not cutting Summoner's Pact.

    Agree on Pact of Negation, even though I think a list with LW + LED could be viable now that LW takes less resources. Haven't tried it yet tho.

    Hope/Swarm are only good vs Show and Tell. People always keep in removals and you don't want to get punished by them.

    I think the best setup vs Fair Blue post board is something like:

    On the Play
    4 Pact
    4 Chancellor of the Annex
    3-4 Therapy

    On the Draw
    4 Pact
    3-4 Therapy
    Unsure

    I have tried Savage Summoning, Leyline of the Lifeforce and even Thoughtseize. Everything was pretty mediocre.

    I think you just want to dodge permanent based hate vs fair blue and focus on countermagic + surgical.

    The Nature's Claim + Force of Vigor setup feels perfect vs Leyline/Chalice decks, I just cut 4 Pacts and go down to 1-2 Therapy 0 Bridge (depends if they have Plague).

  7. #1067

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I think SB is correct because Hope gets much better when they board out 1cmc spot removal, and it also promotes slow-rolling which is less necessary in G1s, but this needs testing.

    Pithing Needle also deserves testing in the SB. It can be cast off either land and shuts off cards like Crypt & Faerie.



    Bridge works with multiple Therapies to enable multiple free discard before casting Dread Return (up to 4 Narcs + 4 Zombies to sacrifice), in case they're holding a lot of hate or you have both DR and Thassa stuck in hand. It's also insurance in case of a Narcomoeba shortage (3 bodies is now enough to both DR + Therapy).

    Traditionally Bridge and Cabal Therapy are bad in the opening hand, but now that's somewhat offset by being able to imprint them on Chrome Mox or pitch to Unmask, and Cabal Therapy can be hardcast on Agadeem hands without losing mana. Adding Unmask + Agadeem reduces the downside of drawing Therapy. Therapy can take Bridge out of your hand if you need to, and Bridge supports multiple Therapies post-Hermit. I think that's enough to make them worth running, but needs testing.




    I started with 4 OUAT for that reason, but after running the math on it I think it's a trap.

    In testing, when do you use OUAT? What do you get?
    Do you ever use it to dig for a Hermit when you don't have one? In those hands, your odds are almost always better by mulliganning than casting OUAT.

    If you mainly use it to get a mana source, wouldn't it be better as a mana source instead?
    I think Unmask and Cabal Therapy are trap cards, you're not going to cast Cabal Therapy and go off on your first turn and Unmask can't reliably count on cards like Dark Ritual, the new Blackland and your win conditions as fuel. If you are casting Cabal Therapy and passing, then they are just going to Brainstorm to hide their Force of Will or Ponder to find another counter spell. Unmask is categorically an inefficient card in a deck that has to consistently mulligan to 6 cards, and if you are paying mana for your disruption then you want 12 other sources to be able to cast it. 4 "Swamps" doesn't suddenly make hard casting Cabal Therapy reliable, and honestly the Bridge and 4 Cabal Therapy Mindtwist is pretty winmore, the deck has done fine without them so using that as an argument over more efficient disruption seems really thin. I mean if you aren't playing Pact of Negation, why aren't you just playing Belcher - it can play 13 lands and shit on people with Veil? How many instamces does Bridge matter compared to a B/G creature so you have 4 more virtual black cards for Unmask and Chrome Mox?

    OUT is reliable depending on how you play it, I don't use it to search for my first threat but it's great to cycle for Spirit Guides, Street Wraith and a second threat. What really attracts me to the card is the possibilty of running Hopes and Swarms, so that I can punch through hate walls with 8 bugs and an Impulse for the 2nd - I am really trying to abuse lands as a resource right now as much as possible.

    More mana is entirely an option, Tinder Wall is an extremely interesting accelerant with the Green land and Chancellor of the Tangle isn't awful. The main thing is finding space for all of the different stuff I want to test, I am flipping between this and Belcher and finding having to run the SB cards for Leyline of the Void to be a huge pain in the ass.

    OUT may have to go just to make space.

  8. #1068

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Hi, long time lurker here. -jax- (@Jax-mtg) is having success with 8 lands, 4 CTherapies, 1 Bridge, no OUAT and no Chancellor MD. It looks like a good starting point. More CTherapies seem to combine better with Agadeem's Awakening than Unmask. I wonder if the Carpets of Flowers are worth SB slots instead of something like Leyline of Sanctity.

    https://twitter.com/Jax_mtg/status/1306347657368162305

  9. #1069

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoZ_ View Post
    Hi, long time lurker here. -jax- (@Jax-mtg) is having success with 8 lands, 4 CTherapies, 1 Bridge, no OUAT and no Chancellor MD. It looks like a good starting point. More CTherapies seem to combine better with Agadeem's Awakening than Unmask. I wonder if the Carpets of Flowers are worth SB slots instead of something like Leyline of Sanctity.

    https://twitter.com/Jax_mtg/status/1306347657368162305
    It's decent, I'm not sold on Cabal Ritual over Street Wraith as far as the "black fluff" card goes and Carpet of Flowers is too slow for us, but the 8 land configuration seems like a no brainer with the Green SB cards. Surprised not to see Hopes at all, but oh well.

  10. #1070

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    No one has thought of putting Mirri's Guile ceo which is a good option

  11. #1071

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    what do you think about this list żżż???

    I find this deck with a lot of disruption, but Cabal therapy's deck is more aggressive, but the way to warp in this way carries a more passive thing, but I find that it is totally effective.

    13 CREATURES

    4 Balustrade Spy
    4 Narcomoeba
    1 Thassa's Oracle
    4 Undercity Informer

    39 INSTANTS and SORC.

    4 Agadeem's Awakening
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Cabal Ritual
    1 Cabal Therapy
    1 Dark Petition
    4 Dark Ritual
    1 Dread Return
    3 Force of Will
    1 Jwari Disruption
    2 Pact of Negation
    2 Pelakka Predation
    4 Ponder
    3 Preordain
    4 Sea Gate Restoration
    2 Thoughtseize

    8 OTHER SPELLS

    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Pet
    Last edited by gato con botas; 10-06-2020 at 02:55 PM.

  12. #1072

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by gato con botas View Post
    what do you think about this list żżż???

    I find this deck with a lot of disruption, but Cabal therapy's deck is more aggressive, but the way to warp in this way carries a more passive thing, but I find that it is totally effective.

    13 CREATURES

    4 Balustrade Spy
    4 Narcomoeba
    1 Thassa's Oracle
    4 Undercity Informer

    39 INSTANTS and SORC.

    4 Agadeem's Awakening
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Cabal Ritual
    1 Cabal Therapy
    1 Dark Petition
    4 Dark Ritual
    1 Dread Return
    3 Force of Will
    1 Jwari Disruption
    2 Pact of Negation
    2 Pelakka Predation
    4 Ponder
    3 Preordain
    4 Sea Gate Restoration
    2 Thoughtseize

    8 OTHER SPELLS

    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Pet
    The moment you add cantrips you're a turn 2 combo deck, may as well play Reanimator at that speed.

  13. #1073
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by gato con botas View Post
    what do you think about this list żżż???
    So let me preface my criticisms of the list by saying that this is a direction I think we ABSOLUTELY should have been exploring for some time. I think we now have access to cards that make a control strategy viable. Without further ado:

    There's no reason to run fewer than four Forces if you're running Forces. I think leaning into control is a viable strategy, but I don't know that we need things like these blue lands to accommodate it. I goldfished Sphinx of Scry 3 when it dropped, and I was pleased with the results. This deck still has problems with finding Rogues, and Sphinx is a solution card that also pitches to Force.

    EtB tapped lands are bad. We don't want to be opening ourselves up to Wasteland and also slowing ourselves down.

    Preordain is a terrible card, and as an aside, the fact that it's banned in Modern indicates that Modern is awful. I've run it in Storm for a long time because there was no versatile substitute until the printing of Wishclaw Talisman, but in this day and age, I don't think you can justify playing more than one or two in Legacy (unless the rest of your deck is also bad, e.g. Stoneblade). /soapboxing

    Ponder is better than Brainstorm if we don't run fetchlands but we do run Therapy. Wincons and/or mana are better in this deck than any and all cantrips unequivocally.

    Discards are our best combo protection pre-board. This list needs more.

    You didn't post the sideboard for this list, but if it's the list I saw on the Web earlier, the sideboard is a bit of a mess. The fact that this list isn't running green or white spell-lands means that we're still vulnerable to the same hate postboard, and none of the sideboard options is as reliable as Nature's Claim/Force of Vigor/whatever or Charbs/Spoils/LED.

    Huh. No color-fixing.

    If the person who piloted the deck could provide input, I'd be more than happy to see my arguments shot down. I'm getting a strong feeling that most of the regular posters here still think the deck has the limitations it had in 2013, and Legacy has changed.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  14. #1074
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Somebody cracked all those Delvers:

    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...nator_nd_place
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  15. #1075

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Somebody cracked all those Delvers:

    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...nator_nd_place
    There was also a really spicy (imo) UB list with sb Doomsday/Belcher: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...fiend_th_place

    From his Twitter/Twitch, the Ground Seals were a mistake (he thought he could get some spicy tech against surgical without realizing it shut down DR), so he'd recommend replacing them with Chancellors or Coffin Purge. Looks like he only faced Delver once in his run, mostly facing non-blue mu's: https://twitter.com/stevencsherwin/s...62702510673925

  16. #1076

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Belchers are decent after the Mythic Lands set, surprised no one tried it by itself when it's borderline MD material.

  17. #1077
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    A relevant difference between the lists is the UB version only has 18 IMS (16 T1 sources, 2 tapped lands) while Sherwin's more traditional version runs 28 IMS (8 Spirit Guides + 4 Pact, 0 tapped lands) and the Pact->Cantor line to filter into black mana.

    Variance due to mana issues seems like a potential problem in the UB version. With much fewer IMS and no trick to filter blue into black, it relies more on its 10 cantrips to smooth out mana. But there are only 8 permanent turn 1 blue sources (13 blue IMS total, 1 tapped land) to cast a T1 cantrip for mana. That makes the mana fixing mode inconsistent or means you sometimes have to gamble away a Lotus Petal to dig for mana and risk ending up neutral or worse. The mana seems weaker, on paper anyway. Overall the opponent could win games by Wasting the turn 1 land or countering the turn 1 cantrip, attacking the flimsier mana.

    I bet ReanimatorFiend enjoyed brewer's advantage, where opponents didn't know quite what he was up to and disrupted him suboptimally (especially with the transformational SB while opponents board in grave hate). Now with the list spoiled it may not do as well.

    What about running Belcher in the green version?

  18. #1078

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    I am in favor of using savage summoning in the gb version
    the version with blue thanks to the cantrips if we get a hand with two narcomoeba you can serve and leave them back on the deck and put them in again and you can play them in this case

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