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Thread: Oops, All Spells! (Formerly The Rogue Hermit)

  1. #61
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    What's the reason for playing Street Wraith > Gitaxian Probe? Uncounterability?
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  2. #62
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by metamet View Post
    What's the reason for playing Street Wraith > Gitaxian Probe? Uncounterability?
    More importantly, I would think, it makes black with Chrome Mox.

    Any thoughts on using Chancellor of the Tangle as another green IMS? I'd forgotten about it, but Carsten mentioned it in his list on SCG today.

  3. #63
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    I did like his kill condition. It is a little bit more compact than the lab maniac kill.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

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  4. #64

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by alphastryk View Post
    ...
    Any thoughts on using Chancellor of the Tangle as another green IMS? I'd forgotten about it, but Carsten mentioned it in his list on SCG today.
    It's pretty dead as a top-deck or free-trip, so it really only makes sense if you're going with the all-in turn 1 game plan. SSG might be a better choce.

  5. #65
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    So, Hermit Druid is going to be unbanned now, right?

  6. #66

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    My personal pet name for the deck is "Captain Hammer" because Captain Hammer is a jerk, and you are kind of being one when you play with this deck and win on T1 (But a man's got to do what a man's got to do........).

    Nudon, I really like your SB, especially the bojuka bog and the karakas. Have you considered putting a swamp in there? I ask because I currently have one in my wish board, and it's actually been fairly relevant in helping me go off. For reference, this is what I'm currently working with.

    Kill Conditions:
    4x Balustrade Spy
    3x Undercity Informer
    1x Goblin Charbelcher
    Mana:
    4x Elvish Spirit Guide
    4x Simian Spirit Guide
    4x Manamorphose
    4x Lotus Petal
    4x Chrome Mox
    4x Lions Eye Diamond
    4x Dark Ritual
    4x Cabal Ritual
    Tutor:
    4x Infernal Tutor
    4x Living Wish
    Combo:
    4x Narcoameoba
    1x Angel of Glory's Rise
    1x Lab Maniac
    1x Dread Return
    1x Azami Lady of Scrolls
    1x Bridge from Below
    3x Cabal Therapy (Doubles as Protection)

    SB:
    1x Swamp
    1x Cavern of Souls
    3x Goblin Charbelcher
    1x Undercity Informer
    9x?


    So far in gold fishing, the list wins 90% of the time by T3 50% of the time on T1. I've said it already on this thread, but I think the essential thing required to play this deck right is to mull to black mana. With LED lists like mine and Nudon's, you are incredibly threat dense, so as long as you can assemble the mana, you should be able to go off.



    Going to experiment with running Summoners Pact + Cantor Over Manamorphose and perhaps shaving a Narcoameoba. So far manamorphose has been quite good to me, but I'm curious whether the Summoners pacts make the list faster. How's unmask been working out in everyone's testing?

    Happy Hammering!

  7. #67

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    I think the deck's name should be "PSYCH!" because it's the demented bastard offspring of Dredge and Belcher.

    In addition, is there any potential in playing Mox Opal in some quantity (probably 1-2)?

  8. #68
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    I don't know how relevant it is, but if you are looking for a swamp in the board why not just play Cabal Pit, it still taps for black and in a bind can kill canonist, jailer, teeg, thalia, other hatebears. As another aside also, if worrying about hatebears you can play Haakon and Inversion to get around it

  9. #69
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Upstate Jimmy View Post
    Going to experiment with running Summoners Pact + Cantor Over Manamorphose and perhaps shaving a Narcoameoba. So far manamorphose has been quite good to me, but I'm curious whether the Summoners pacts make the list faster. How's unmask been working out in everyone's testing?

    Happy Hammering!
    I've been happy with Manamophose, especially in lists that run Tinder Wall. It seems like a lot of the more recent lists just don't have enough mana. Summoner's Pact has been amazing as both an IMS and a color-fixer, I think it's a must-include.

    Shaving a Narc is really bad idea. There's a ton of cards you don't want to draw, and having only 3 Narcs will greatly increase your chances of not being able to kill by dropping a grinder. Cutting a Bridge would be the first thing to shave if you wanted to shave the kill conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Namida
    The 56-card deck idea as I understand it is that you want to play free cards in your deck to gain a higher ratio of high-impact cards, but I think that this is the sort of thing that only makes any sense when you've maxed out on high-impact cards. I don't think you've maxed out on the number of high-impact cards in your deck.

    In any case...To me, it is unacceptable to lose from mulliganing a hand with Street Wraith in it or from keeping a sketchy hand and praying that Street Wraith becomes what you need it to be.

    If I must lose some games due to my deck's construction, I would rather lose because I built my deck to be as redundant as possible and ended up drawing redundant copies of cards like Unmask and Infernal Tutor that actually have a function in my deck. I don't want to lose because I added Street Wraith and blinded myself from actually seeing what my opening seven looks like--and for what? To affect the deck's construction in ways that shouldn't matter (you never want Street Wraith in your opening hand and you hope that you rarely if ever have to actually play Magic against your opponent and be in a situation where your library's threat ratio would matter). Making your deck less consistent by removing actual game-ending threats like Infernal Tutor for the sake of playing cards that are effectively a crapshoot in cardboard form is the wrong way to go, in my mind. I think it is important to know what your cards do in a deck that aims to use basically its entire opening hand to win ASAP.
    Definitely agree with this. I tested Gitaxian Probe and Street Wraith in the early builds, and it was very bad from an empirical standpoint, and I think you give a very good theoretical reason why they're bad.

    There's plenty of cards that are contenders like Tinder Wall and Manamorphose, some number of Tutors, etc, that adding more randomness to the deck to play with the statistics a tiny bit doesn't make sense.


    Does anyone think it's worth it for me to write a primer? If this deck is ever going to be moved to Established, it will have to be done, but it's a bit of a waste if the deck never goes anywhere. In other words, do you think this deck has the potential to be a real deck in the format?

    Another deck name idea that I just thought of - the mechanic this is abusing is (unofficially) called "Grinding" (MaRo talked about it in one of his articles). So why don't we call the deck Grinder?
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  10. #70

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmuant View Post

    Does anyone think it's worth it for me to write a primer? If this deck is ever going to be moved to Established, it will have to be done, but it's a bit of a waste if the deck never goes anywhere. In other words, do you think this deck has the potential to be a real deck in the format?

    Another deck name idea that I just thought of - the mechanic this is abusing is (unofficially) called "Grinding" (MaRo talked about it in one of his articles). So why don't we call the deck Grinder?
    Couldn't hurt, but first things first. We have a deck that borrows vulnerabilities from both Belcher and Dredge, but is potentially faster. Can we demonstrate a list that is consistent and more resilient to hate than those lists? To be viable, I feel like Hobo has to be reliably capable of dealing with:

    (1) On the play: Force of Will, Leyline of the Void, Surgical Extraction, Faerie Macabre
    (2) On the draw: All the above plus Grafdigger's cage, Rest in Peace, Tormod's Crypt (and similar artifacts), Thalia (and other sphere effects), Blood Moon, Trinisphere, Spell Pierce (and other one cc counterspells).

    If we can brew a list that does that, it's a real thing. If not, then this list is just another glass cannon. I think we can, though.

  11. #71

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmuant View Post

    Another deck name idea that I just thought of - the mechanic this is abusing is (unofficially) called "Grinding" (MaRo talked about it in one of his articles). So why don't we call the deck Grinder?
    I was thinking more in line "Breakfast Snaps" as its a breakfast deck that is just super fast.

  12. #72

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by GradStudentGuy View Post
    I was thinking more in line "Breakfast Snaps" as its a breakfast deck that is just super fast.
    We should be innovative. Let's not just recycle the same old tired names from days of yore; let's mix up the terminology! Heck, even "Grinder" is novel. Besides, all the breakfast decks use Cephalid and we don't. Do they even call the Basalt Monolith + Mesmeric Orb version "breakfast?"

  13. #73
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximumC View Post
    We should be innovative. Let's not just recycle the same old tired names from days of yore; let's mix up the terminology! Heck, even "Grinder" is novel. Besides, all the breakfast decks use Cephalid and we don't. Do they even call the Basalt Monolith + Mesmeric Orb version "breakfast?"
    I believe that is "The Four Horsemen". So no
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  14. #74

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Upstate Jimmy View Post
    My personal pet name for the deck is "Captain Hammer" because Captain Hammer is a jerk, and you are kind of being one when you play with this deck and win on T1 (But a man's got to do what a man's got to do........).

    Nudon, I really like your SB, especially the bojuka bog and the karakas. Have you considered putting a swamp in there? I ask because I currently have one in my wish board, and it's actually been fairly relevant in helping me go off. For reference, this is what I'm currently working with.

    Kill Conditions:
    4x Balustrade Spy
    3x Undercity Informer
    1x Goblin Charbelcher
    Mana:
    4x Elvish Spirit Guide
    4x Simian Spirit Guide
    4x Manamorphose
    4x Lotus Petal
    4x Chrome Mox
    4x Lions Eye Diamond
    4x Dark Ritual
    4x Cabal Ritual
    Tutor:
    4x Infernal Tutor
    4x Living Wish
    Combo:
    4x Narcoameoba
    1x Angel of Glory's Rise
    1x Lab Maniac
    1x Dread Return
    1x Azami Lady of Scrolls
    1x Bridge from Below
    3x Cabal Therapy (Doubles as Protection)

    SB:
    1x Swamp
    1x Cavern of Souls
    3x Goblin Charbelcher
    1x Undercity Informer
    9x?


    So far in gold fishing, the list wins 90% of the time by T3 50% of the time on T1. I've said it already on this thread, but I think the essential thing required to play this deck right is to mull to black mana. With LED lists like mine and Nudon's, you are incredibly threat dense, so as long as you can assemble the mana, you should be able to go off.



    Going to experiment with running Summoners Pact + Cantor Over Manamorphose and perhaps shaving a Narcoameoba. So far manamorphose has been quite good to me, but I'm curious whether the Summoners pacts make the list faster. How's unmask been working out in everyone's testing?

    Happy Hammering!
    Thanks Jimmy! I thought about adding a swamp in the event there's a informer/spy and cabal therapy in our hand and can't combo off yet. However, I don't think it does enough to warrant a sb slot since I'd rather go for cavern of souls most of the time. Summoner's Pact + Cantor is a must I think. Unmask is ok but probably the worst card in the deck.

    Shaving a narc before bridge is correct in my opinion because bridge can potentially generate more than 1 token (in conjunction with cabal therapy) whereas narc will always be 1 body. Also, I've gone back to the mimeoplasm kill because I fear stifle more than leyline of sanctity. Lastly, I like Undercity Spy as the deck name. :)

    Edit: I forgot cavern doesn't turn on dark ritual so I think 1 swamp is reasonable. Also, you want the single spy in the board because it lets you turn on cabal therapy while informer is better maindeck because of LED.

  15. #75

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    I actually prefer informer in the board precisely because of LED. You can crack LED in response to casting living wish, and then be able to cast him, an interaction I've abused quite a bit in my goldfishing.

    Also, I'm officially 100% on board with Manamorphose. In testing, the card is a brick house, and when I cut them and a Cabal Therapy for Pact + Cantor, I wasn't really that impressed.

    As for Summoners Pact being an auto include, I'm pretty leery about the card, as I don't like the idea of straight up dying to force of will. When I tested against Miracles with an earlier version of the list, it didn't take me that long to reassemble the combo after I was forced out, so it's not as if we're just dead if someone stops us from going off.

    With that in mind, I am interested in bringing Pact + Cantor in against decks without access to Counter Magic, I just don't have much of an idea what I'd cut from the main. Any suggestions?

    Also, while Cabal Pit does seem like an interesting choice over Swamp, I've never once reached threshold with this deck, (except after I've gone off ) so I'm not sure if its worth it.

    Something I'm going to experiment with next is Whispmare + Ingot Chewer in the wish Board. Has anyone else tried the invoke creatueres?

    As for writing a primer, I think we may want to wait until the deck has put up a result before doing so. Once that happens, I say let's go wild.

  16. #76
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Paradigm Shift seems interesting. Low CC and in line with mana severance. Afterall, the graveyard only (at least from that activation) contains one land but it is shuffled randomly..

    Also, somebody made teh comment that we can activate Informer more than once in a turn and after Nacro's and Tallmen are considered I think several land is okay. I would like to have the time to calculate the expected number of cards flipped before the first land given X land in the deck. Then find the the prob of generating enough tokens and mana to roll along until certain combo pieces are acquired.

    Songs of the Damned? In creature heavy build this could be a great mid combo boon, instant too!

  17. #77
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    anyone else catch on to leyline of anticipation yet? you can win turn zero and win in response to grave hate.

  18. #78

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Upstate Jimmy View Post
    I actually prefer informer in the board precisely because of LED. You can crack LED in response to casting living wish, and then be able to cast him, an interaction I've abused quite a bit in my goldfishing.

    Also, I'm officially 100% on board with Manamorphose. In testing, the card is a brick house, and when I cut them and a Cabal Therapy for Pact + Cantor, I wasn't really that impressed.

    As for Summoners Pact being an auto include, I'm pretty leery about the card, as I don't like the idea of straight up dying to force of will. When I tested against Miracles with an earlier version of the list, it didn't take me that long to reassemble the combo after I was forced out, so it's not as if we're just dead if someone stops us from going off.

    With that in mind, I am interested in bringing Pact + Cantor in against decks without access to Counter Magic, I just don't have much of an idea what I'd cut from the main. Any suggestions?

    Also, while Cabal Pit does seem like an interesting choice over Swamp, I've never once reached threshold with this deck, (except after I've gone off ) so I'm not sure if its worth it.

    Something I'm going to experiment with next is Whispmare + Ingot Chewer in the wish Board. Has anyone else tried the invoke creatueres?

    As for writing a primer, I think we may want to wait until the deck has put up a result before doing so. Once that happens, I say let's go wild.
    Cracking LED in response to living wish to play informer is very risky if you can't sacrifice it that turn. It leaves the informer open to all sorts of removal. If it were me, I'd want at least 1 extra mana in conjunction with the LED so I can finish the game. In that respect, spy would better since I can sac him to therapy. 4 informers MD is better in case you have 3 mana + LED.

    Swamp is nice because it's wasteland-proof. I don't see why you would want to evoke creatures when you can just play their equivalent instant speed versions.

  19. #79
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    The evoke creatures are good because you can get them with living wish, they also kill opposing bridges and get around thorn of amethyst.

  20. #80
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    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by John Cox View Post
    The evoke creatures are good because you can get them with living wish, they also kill opposing bridges and get around thorn of amethyst.
    I definitely like Ingot Chewer. Making W to cast Wispmare seems tricky, but the opportunity cost is so low that you might as well throw it in the board too.

    Regarding Leyline of Anticipation - it seems awesome...but not really needed. Unlike Vintage, there's very few Prison decks or decks with quad Leyline of the Void. I suspect that Unmask, Pact of Negation, and Nature's Claim are better board cards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Upstate Jimmy View Post
    I actually prefer informer in the board precisely because of LED. You can crack LED in response to casting living wish, and then be able to cast him, an interaction I've abused quite a bit in my goldfishing.

    Also, I'm officially 100% on board with Manamorphose. In testing, the card is a brick house, and when I cut them and a Cabal Therapy for Pact + Cantor, I wasn't really that impressed.

    As for Summoners Pact being an auto include, I'm pretty leery about the card, as I don't like the idea of straight up dying to force of will. When I tested against Miracles with an earlier version of the list, it didn't take me that long to reassemble the combo after I was forced out, so it's not as if we're just dead if someone stops us from going off.

    With that in mind, I am interested in bringing Pact + Cantor in against decks without access to Counter Magic, I just don't have much of an idea what I'd cut from the main. Any suggestions?
    I tested both configurations of which man to have in the board, and I found Informer to be vastly better maindeck. Think about it this way. The vast majority of our mana sources are +1s, so the additional mana upfront (i.e. before LED, which is just a ridiculous card) is much more than 33% more mana. It's more like 75% more mana because of issues with having all the cards in hand. Therefore, you want to maximize the configuration that allows you to only need 3 mana.

    Your reservations about Summoner's Pact are reasonable. The deck does reload quite well. I'm just very nervous about consistancy with 4 fewer IMSs and a color-fixer. The deck seems to be all-in, so maybe it's a reasonable risk to be all-in like that. SI does it somehow.
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