I don't think that Electrickery is any good, especially not vs Nimble Mongoose. It's a two card combo that has to resolve in the first place. Rest in Peace + Electrickery (Overloard) doesn't seem like a good plan vs Nimble Mongoose. I'd prefer to just play RIP and hope to chumpblock the Mongoose with anything you play, no need for an extracard here. Same for Lingering Souls, why would I use a counterable answer to lingering Souls that is neither permanent nor hits for 3? I really don't see a slot for this card at the moment.
In any way, this is the list I came up with after this weeks testings:
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Ponder
1 Island
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 3 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 4 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
Greetings
I'm suggesting Electrickery more for sb efficiency than anything else, assuming you'd be seeing both Jund and Canadian Thresh on a regular basis. It's a way around an early Mongoose to stall until you get RiP (I still think you should run Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus so you don't neuter your own Grim Lavamancer), and if it hits an unflipped Delver, all the better. That early, it should be pivotal, so having Daze or FoW backup for it will be necessary, yes, but it will allow you to dictate the tempo for the rest of the match. Against Jund, they don't run counters, but again - killing their graveyard and sweeping off Souls and killing off a Bob ought to let you dictate the game from there on out. I do completely agree that if you don't see a lot of Canadian Thresh and a lot more of Jund, Sulfur Elemental is just better against Lingering Souls, as it's a permanent answer, and it's a nice little bonus that it pumps your Angels too.
The sideboard you have looks pretty good to me. One thing I'm wondering about the Jund matchup here is how well they're able to recover from Stifle/Wasteland. In Modern, when I played Twin I knew guys who had great results "Stifle"-ing Jund players' fetches with Trickbind (NOT suggesting Trickbind here) , and that just shut them down. I'm really curious if the Stifle/Wasteland package does a good enough job at shutting them down in Legacy.
Jund has a pretty awful manabase in Legacy, though making it easy to screw them a little. Though they will recover if we do not murder any Shaman on sight or drop a Mancer. Grim Lavamancer paired with the manascrewplan works very well.
I still think that RIP > Relic/Crypt - yes it shuts down our Lavamancers, but I do not have them in, postboard. All they can kill is a Delver of Secrets, a creature we have a billion outs to, so I do not see a need to play worse hatecards at all.
Greetings
If ones metagame does have a lot of Jund than some devoted sideboard tech would indeed be prudent strategy.
Divert is awesome against Jund. Whether it is throwing a hymm back at them or re-targeting a decay or bolt, it is very sound strategy to bring in if you're having significant difficulty with Jund.
To be the man, you gotta beat the man!
Not sure if the manabase can support it, or if it would even be necessary, but any thought given to Mirran Crusader in the sideboard? I could see it having potential game versus the BUG decks and even Jund (non PFire builds). Again, I'm just spitballing here...
has anyone given thought to boros reckoner in the main?
How is this deck matchup versus UW/ UWx Miracle and Esper Blade? I've been playing with an UWb Delver Tempo list lately, which shares the same tempo phylosophy of this UWR Delver build but plays Stoneforge instead of Geist as the main win con ( as I feel SFM is much better when facing a wide spectrum of decks).
I've been crushing almost everything with UWb Delver Tempo, from Jund to Rug to Bug Aggro to Elves, but I just die to Miracle and EsperBlade. Basically I just would like to know how much switching from UWb Delver Tempo to UWr Delver Tempo increases my % ratio vs. said decks. Obviously Reb out of the board is huge but so (and maybe even better) is the discard package.
Oh, has SFM been considered over Geist? I find Sfm amazing in this particular shells (UWx Delver tempo decks) as she capitalizes on the tempo gaps you create way better than GoST, provides a lategame plan and it's generally cheaper, as it's the typical turn 3 safe play that doesn't expose you to Daze, lets you stay open for Stifle and Pierce, etc.
Edit: Just saw Einherjer's take on SFM in the first page. While I do agree that an Aggro Mystic doesn't always win games, on the other side the tempo package sensibly changes this most of the times. Daze and Pierce are relevant ways to protect your SFM, Stifle/Waste lets you drop SFM in a boardstate where even if it's the 2nd or 3rd turn you actually are at least 1 turn in advantage land wise and tempo wise. And she's generally easier to connect, as GoST needs a clear way to connect and most of the times clearing the way in order for him to reach opponent's life total is way more difficult than just protect your SFM for a turn, untap and BSkull your opponent / equip a sword.
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@Kiblast
I am the one that played against you on Cockatrice a couple of days ago, me playing UWr, you playing UWb. I would say the matchup against Esper is favored for UWr, as my experience is that grim lavamancer dominates all creatures available for the Esper player. I realize your deck was not an ordinary Esper deck, which is why it turned out sort of like a classical tempo-mirror, but the statement regarding grim lavamancer holds true also for those games I think.
Regarding Miracles, I have not had the chance to test that matchup very much. However, I believe we should be able to do the RUG-trick, i.e. place a shroud on the board and ignore everything else except for counterbalance and miracles, and we do have both counters, clique and stifle for the latter. Granted, Geist is a lot more hard to play compared to mongoose, but the fast clock may make up for it. But as I said, I don't have the experience to back these statements up just yet.
EDIT:
I'd love to see your UWb Tempo-list as well. PM?
Especially against UWb Stoneblade/Controldecks red is way better than black, because we have the following:
1) 8 cc1 Removal and 3 Mancer, making Mystic into Skull a No-Go. On the other way, Jitte won't save them too, as we can just kill every fucking creature the Controlplayer would like to equip the Jitte at.
2) We have REBs and Sulfur Elementals (<3) out of the SB, making their best stallcard --> Lingering Souls a liability. Hitting for 3 isn't bad either.
3) Against decks that run 4 Swords and 3-4 Snapcaster, and even more Swords (Paths) Sideboard you want to make sure, that you are not getting blown out by "infinite Swords". This can be achieved by simply manascrewing them (won't always work, obv.) or just play shrouded creatures. I am not the most experiences tempoplayer, though I played different Controldecks a lot, but Shroudcreatures pretty much always do the trick in those Matchups.
When playing against Miracles I can understand that you are having problems beating them, because they play 4 Terminus 4 Swords and some additional Snapcaster Mages plus some (creative) removals like EE, Verdict, Clasm... None of your creatures has Shroud, and "Play Skull, die, bounce, play" is no option for a tempodeck. Geist on the other side is pretty much a 3-turn-clock vs those decks. In addition to this, all their outs to Geist are stifleable or Chumpblockers can be killed by our Bolts/Mancer. So casting Stifle on their Fetchlands is not always the right move...
And in addition to this, having played with and against various Tempodecks for quite a while I have to say, that I simply can't imagine a Tempodeck without Lightning Bolt... Speeding up the clock, killing an stabilized opponent, costing 1 mana for being a very effective removal are just a few points that led me away from playing boltless tempo - mostly talking about BUG here though.
Greetings
i lie this thread currently im running a cousin of this deck, its a stonbade u/w/r , the differences are this deck reminds me of rug delver, mine plays more similar to esper stoneblade... i like 3 spell pierce in the main and 2-3 fluster storms in the side to bring in against control/combo but this deck is running the tempo pakage with stifle and wasteland so it is probably not necessary unlike my list which it dramatically makes a difference, how would magnus of the moon do in your sideboard with mana denial strategy? i thin guerrilla tactics is a cute ard for decs that like to make you discard, since this deck doesnt run any artifacts or enchamtents in the main, i wonder if running an isocron septor in the sideboard might add some suprise to games 2-3 because your opponent should board out artifact removal
@Boros Reckoner: No.
@Mirran Crusader: No, 1) we do not need cards that are only good vs BGx not running P.Fire, 2) they still got Bolts and 3) it's not easy to cast the Crusader at all.
I have been toying around with an interesting sideboardcard. Price of Progress. A friend of mine played this in RUG Delver to quite some success. The idea behind that card is easy. Board it only in, if it is obvious, that we are the Beatdown. Board it only in, if the opposing deck has alot of Nonbasics. So, we would be boarding it in vs Espercontrol, BUG Control and some lower tierdecks. Sadly we can't really bring it vs Jund, as they can just turn the game and be the agressor, at least that is what I have experienced so far. One might say that bringing in PoP, while hoping for a high damage output, and manascrewing is an antisynergy. I have thought about this aswell, but many of the games vs various Controldecks end up with them having alot of Lands, because they did stabilize and we did not bother throwing our Stifles on their irrelevant Fetchlands(obv.). Though the PoP might hit us for 4-8 it still might be a good choice because it can just knock down an Opponent having a connected Batterskull... you know, just like Price for 16 or something.
In addition to this it can kill Planeswalkers and it can sometimes draw lost games.
Has anybody been testing with the 1 flex. Landslot we got, Island in my list posted above? I mean we have Island, Plateau and Karakas as possibilities.
These are my points for any land, given:
1) Island: Good Land to start a Tempomirror with. Can bluff Miracle-Control quite well - noone expects a Stifle from a deck that made like Island, Go, or Strand, Island, Go. In the Lategame Island is clearly the worst land.
2) Plateau: Pretty bad early, cause it is simply not blue, making it impossible to Stifle an opposing Fetchland, Wasteland, Spell Pierce, Daze or do anything else... In the Midgame it provides us with a good land vs opposing Wastelands, because we can like Fetch for Tundra, Volcanic and Plateau making it harder for them to colorscrew us.
3) Karakas: Even worse than Plateau in the Earlygame, not too good in the Midgame too, but the Lategame is, where Karakas shines, protecting our Geist from opposing tricks/chumps whatever. It works as a pseudo-random-hate vs Show and Tell too :D
What are you opinions/experiences on these 3 lands?
Greetings
From testing I would rather run another Volcanic before the 1st Island, because of lavamancer. Karakas as random utility is not worth it for a tempo deck requiring islands as you pointed out. I would go for the PLateau though since it is the best land to be fetched as land #3. Since the colors are more distributed than for RUG (creature=green, removal=red) in this deck both removal and creatures are in red and white making color screw really bad.
To me this deck has almost "too much" board control and not enough offensive punch. I am thinking about making some tests without lavamancer but with Jotun Grunt instead. Grunt hates so much popular stuff very well (Deathrite, Punishing Fire, Tombstalker, Goyf, Mongoose, Snapcaster, Dredge, Loam) and does not die to bolt or punishing fire making him much better vs. Jund I think. At this point in legacy almost every deck uses the graveyard as a resource and he feels like Goyf raping rest in peace. Freeing up SB slots is also nice
Currently playing: Elves
Played small tourney, went 1-2 beating ANT, but losing to Jund and UR Delver. I must say, without Geist rocking and rolling, this deck doesn't deal as much damage as I'd like during those precious turns that my opponent is slightly off balance (thanks to Stifle, Wasteland, etc).
I suggest Boros Charm. It helps keeping Geist/Delver alive while having 2 aggresive modes. Just throwing it out there.
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Charm does not make the cut it for me. Bolt & Swords are better and I don't think you can cut threats or anything from the blue tempo shell. Also this decks manacurve is too high anyway.
Not having enough punch without geist is true: Try Jotun Grunt.
I think it's best as a 3of since you want to disrupt/cantrip first. But if things go well he comes down turn3+ hating on 80% of the format while beating like a goyf.
I played Geist as a 3 of but it is still f**** expensive and very often not castable. Opponents play wasteland as well! He can still fulfill an important role as a 2of.
Since I don't think you can make lavamancer & grunt work there is space for more creatures. Ideally at 1cmc, but 2 could be ok. More 3cmc like snapcaster and vendilion clique are unfortunately not an option.
Best option to beat at 1cmc is Steppe Lynx I guess. Tough to evaluate him, but it could maybe work with fetchies and daze.
At 2cmc you could bring in more disruption elements like Meddling Mage or Phyrexian revoker.
Hope the community has better ideas, but I am pretty sure that a build with Grunt has a lot more potential than a build with lavamancer.
Currently playing: Elves
Ok, Jotun Grunt sounds fantastic. This are my thoughts on him:
1) 4/4 for 2 is good.
2) He opens our mainboard to Spell Snare, which was dead earlier.
3) Playing him forces us to cut on the Lavamancers, as long as we do not play both of them in low numbers.
4) He trumps Mongoose, though Mongoose + Bolt will always be enough, no matter how big the Mongoose is.
5) Preboard Graveyardhate is always nice to have in such a wide open format.
6) He is fast and beats for alot, on an empty field.
7) Grunt will trump Tarmogoyf more often that not.
So playing with Grunt would force us to drastically change our creaturebase, especially concerning Grim Lavamancer, which I am very unhappy about. What are you peoples takes on a UWR Tempocreaturebase with Grunt? I mean we would def. have to play 12+ creatures, as Grunt is more of a temporary creature and hardly playable in multiples... As great as Grunt sounds, I cannot think of a decent creature-combination...
Greetings
Maybe i was wrong and 4 Delver, 4 Grunt, 3 Geist is not so bad after all. I tested with 2 meddling mage and 1 Vendilion clique in the SB for additional fuel vs. combo & control. I like how it plays out having more control over the board compared to RUG and easy wins over dredge as well as keeping Goyf 2/3 felt good. Compared to RUG you don't have mongose hence cannot "ping" in the early game, but geist makes up for that later on.
For reference what I've been testing.
19 lands
3 Volcanic
3 Tundra
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Jotun Grunt
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
Sideobard
4 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disentchant
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Currently playing: Elves
how would magnus of the moon do in this kind of deck style with all of the mana denial?(stifle/wasteland )
Could we please stick to realistic suggestions... I've got enough of Boros Reckoner and Magus of the Moon... And even if you have to suggest ...cards like this... please back it up with some explanations!
Greetings
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