Tarmogoyf is typically at least 3/4 vanilla that gets chump blocked all day long, yet its still played. Your argument is invalid, though I will admit there are other reasons that Ruhan is bad.
The cost and color requirements of Goyf and Ruhan are worlds apart. Also, I can flood the board with 2-4x Goyf, can you flood the board with Ruhan?
I thought that the "other reasons" were a given and didn't need to be spoken in order for you to understand why Ruhan is bad. I was wrong.
No, you were right. In fact, I stopped promoting Ruhan as a card-choice before you even responded to me, thanks to LRS explaining the loss of tempo if they decide to StP the Ruhan. Actually, the only reason I posted in response to Random was because he gave a bullshit reason as to why it was bad, and I called him out on it.
Blood Moon is generally better than Magus of the moon because it is a lot easier to remove a creature than an enchantment. Magus dies to bolt, punishing fire, dismember, which all can be cast under a moon effect. In addition, if you decide to run pyroclasm, you kill your own moon lock if you need to rid the field of deathrites or other creatures that can help them get out of the situation.
Elspeth replaces a Jace in the grindy BGx decks, especially jund. Lightning bolt, BBE and postboard red blasts all make jace not feel as powerful as he should be, and Elspeth is a great replacement for him. She makes chumpblockers against goyfs and sac fodder for Liliana's. Her "Jump" ability is also fantastic with Geist. I also like her in the "mirror" ie. stoneblade decks as she's really great at killing jace as well. However, she is a do nothing in certain matchups and doesn't pitch to force so she's better off in the sb.
Disenchant is great because it's instant speed and it can be flashbacked with snapcaster. I don't like detention sphere because a lot of decks are packing red blasts in the side (which they will be bringing in against this deck) and they make detention sphere look silly. When I tried det sphere I found that I would rarely get an X-for-1 trade with it. In sneak and show, det sphere really only works against emrakul as they can still draw a billion cards off griselbrand to find an answer to it.
@Piceli89: Do you think splitting the moons to have 1 in the main and 1 in the side would be useful? So many decks are weak to it and it seems awesome to just suddenly win out of nowhere because not a lot of people expect non-basic hate from a U/W/x Stoneforge deck.
I remember trying to make a list like that back a few weeks ago, when I wanted to try more than just splashing for red elemental blast in my u/w stoneblade, but ended up not building the deck in the end. My experimental list looked like that, and honestly, it didn't look so bad :
Lands:
1 Academy Ruins
1 Arid Mesa
1 karakas
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
Creatures:
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
Instants:
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
2 spell snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
Artifact:
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives
Planeswalkers:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 elspeth, knight errant
Sideboard:
1 humility
1 detention sphere
2 geist of saint traft
1 sword of war and peace
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 pithing needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 rest in peace
1 enlighted tutor
1 blood moon
so basicly, you are running red for bolts, blood moon and red blast. Also, for those interested, I have run the enlighted tutor in the past, and it's really cool to have it in there as it kinda doubles as the second copy of one of your sideboard enchantments, so you can play one of each easily. As such, I figured that if I was to try to screw up people with blood moon, enlighted tutor would be pefect, as I would then be able to play more enchantments in my sideboard.
Now, as I said, I never got to try it out in practice (I already am very happy with my strait u/w version, so I ended up going back to that list, without the red splash), but I figured it could give you guys ideas, or something along those lines.
Last edited by ThediscoPower; 02-23-2013 at 01:30 AM.
You have pretty much nailed every point, props to you.
As for Blood Moon in the maindeck: I've thought about it several times. The problem is, that in UWr deck, running it from game 1 sometimes may screw yourself more than your opponent. What I mean is that the deck relies on a good dose of white sources to function properly, given Stoneforge and Plow; if you were to draw Moon, you should have fetched at least 1 Plains to play it comfortably. This may seem not that much of a problem, but sometimes you draw into it when you have just dual lands that produce W and you're in trouble: what if I play it now and afterwards I don't find the basic Plains to cast my cards? You can easily guess that the issue gets even worse when you're playing cards that require WW, such as Elspeth and Verdict.
Also, if I were to play it MD, I'd consider it an actual plan and play it as 2-ofs. 1 is too randomic.
That's why I think Blood Moon still has to be a sideboard card in this context: not only because its effectiveness still varies greatly from matchup to matchup, but even because this very deck is not configured to have the least drawback from its effect at all. You will side it in only in certain matchups, and you'll know how you will have to fetch given one of your plans may be to find that BM and color-lock your Jund/Bug opponent (i.e.: save Flooded Strand and Mesa for the basic Plains).
The only application where I could see it as a maindeck tool is in a UR(x)-based control deck, which I'm currently working on.
EDIT: Maybe the only way you could get away with a maindeck Blood Moon is to run an extremely "smoothed-out" manabase like this:
5 Islands
3 Plains
1 Mountain
9 Fetches
1 Karakas
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
But I think it's not worth the tradeoff with color avaiability from the 3 turns (Tundra is really useful in several scenarios, given you play Counterspell, Clique and Jace). Also, the more you fill your manabase with basics, the more colorless lands will hurt you. If you were to play this you'd probably have to give up Academy Ruins, and that's too good to not be played with EE and Batterskull.
All this Blood Moon discussion reminded me of a deck I saw on TheCouncil some time ago. The sideboard is all over the place, but the idea seems solid:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=73251
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Blood Moon
1 Humility
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Izzet Charm
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Pyroclasm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Tundra
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Plateau
3 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
5 Island
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
3 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
Sideboard:
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Past in Flames
1 Moat
2 Misdirection
1 Counterflux
1 Negate
2 Disenchant
@Tthe Treefolk Master
I dont like the ancestral visions even though its amazing to start in your hand. It will make you mad when you need answers, and you top deck this card that yells "suspend me and wait a few more turns while your face gets smashed in " (but its Blood Moon might help it get there by slowing down the game). Izzet Charm packs versatility but at a price but i think its an upgrade from fire//ice . spell in legacy for a spell pierce, careful study (with flash) , or shock is really mediocre .That being said I have considered it and playtested it and it was "ok" but didnt strike me as awesome. Bolt most of the time is better cuz it can reach your opponent.
@Picel89 I give kudos too your mana base consideration. Often one of the most unforgiving things about playing a deck like this is the mana base. I have been content running 10 fetch, 5 basic, 5 nonbasic, and one utility land. Since i only have to worry about getting to double blue in my deck list instead of double white, it does make ether moon (magnus or enchantment) easier to run. My list runs only 4 Swords , 3 (?!?!)Stoneforge (I find 4 is to much with only 2 equipment, so mid-late game I don't draw useless stoneforges), and 2 Giest, bringing my white count Mainboard to 9. so and i have 6 fetch and one plains to make that result in a basic plains on my field before a moon comes on the field. Glad you appericate the Ruins too. I like how it lets me recur my 4/4 lifelinker too
@Aetherick Unlike painterservant.deck though, the moons dont get on the field till turn 3 which gives the opponent time to set up with fetch lands (they can ramp it turn 2 and turn one). If stifle / Wastelandwas ran then this plan would be down right brutal. Keeping them off fetchlands and duals and moon backup would be (in theory) insane. I know Magnus is considerably more fragile then Blood Moon, but when I ran 3 R.I.P. with magnus in my SB, I liked having a body on the moon. It made me feel like i can put a clock instead of durdling until the end of time if i sideboarded both in against jund. It would have to be protected with countermagic agressively, though. I like the Idea of a moon from left field two potentially disrupt an enemy but trying to make it run smooth is something I'd need to work on if i run it in the 75.Thanks for Elspeth's
overview. She sounds ok, but I'm not sold on her yet. I still need to play test her out, even though right now I feel there is better sideboard material. Disenchant does work its wonders, and I too REALLY REALLY REALLY disklike Detention sphere. That being said it does solve too many problems for me to ignore. It eats planeswalkers, big dudes, and tokens (dredge and miracle) which disenchant can't. I'd rather sphere the combo demon over swordzing it, but I agree its till a bad situation. Against showandtell.deck, sphere sits in your hand as you tap out to play stoneforge with very little repercusion because it will hit virtually anything they drop mainboard. It gets everything disenchant will so its a stronger topdeck against more situations. That being said, I still HATE running the card myself so I limit it to two copies.
@ThediscoPower. Nice list. I recommend trying Giest in the main becuase I think it will help your game one win percentage because a stupid amount of decks out there right now can't deal with it("nice Abrupt decay"). Worst case you side the two out against combo for more disruption. I think if you are going to go red splash bolt needs to be increased(at min to 3-4). I like bolt better against combo (T.E.S., Elves,), control (can eat a walker sometimes) and agro matchups over swords to plow shares. If you can't run 4 bolt and 4 swords, I'd reccomend to go to 3 swords before cutting a bolt but thats just me. I think it has better synergy with snappy then swords since 4 mana (2 being red) and both cards (one bolt 1 snappy) in hands can flash 6 damage and a 2/1 body at the opponents end step. I've recently been thinking about e tutor as it finds SB bullets as well. If you wanna run only 2 red of "something" I'd recommend Grim Lavamancer over bolt.
I hate to beat a dead horse but i forgot to mention enemy karakas
. Ok. Poor Ruhan is offically dead lets move on folks, nothing to see here, just keep it moving folks.
@epiclevelcommoner
I'm glad you are brewing and thinking outside the box and I'd rather you suggest taking a look at it than not because I like to brew, and the like to get fed ideas (terrible or not) so I can decide for myself if it is playable or not. See this card's Flavor text for further explanation. So don't get discouraged to at least brainstorm off the beaten path in an attempt to find a potential gem because you might stumble eventually upon something broken or will be broken. Like when i played show and tell before it was cool back in 2006 (darksteel collosus, simic skyswallower and akroma targets), I picked Show and tell up for $2.50 a piece now look where they are at. So keep brewing buddy :)
-LRS-
Last edited by lost_ronin_soul; 02-23-2013 at 02:05 PM.
I am thinking about this build since 4 swords, 4 bolt and 3-4 snapcaster just sound so nice these days.
Additionally I would also opt for 2 Geist & Sword of Feast and Famine main considering jund & BUG. Even if they decay the sword, snappy + all the removal & counter pacakge should make sure that there is no blocker and no liliana hits the table. Then Geist can win the game easily
Given all the red in the meta jace can go down to 2 with number 3 in the board. Altough Eslpeth can also be hurt by burn it is significantly harder and tokes are good these days, so 1 in the main or sideboard is a good option I feel.
Blood moons belong to the board, but are of course super-potent in popular matchups.
Currently playing: Elves
Yes maybe 1 Jitte in the side. If I play ground creatures (especially geist) a sword has a lot more value than if you play lingering souls where jitte shines.
The counter package is always something flexible, but the way I would design the deck compared to esper is beeing more draw-go than esper obviously and since not having discard of our own, there should be a decent amount of counterspells to defend versus discard and handle critical planeswalkers.
What I had in mind (untuned)
23 lands, 4 basics, 2 wasteland
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the mind sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
This has strong aspects of creature & stack control with premium lategame and winconditions (Jace, Geist, SFM) which leaves space in the SB for specific matchups.
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Disenchant
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Blood Moon
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Rest in Peace
Compared to esper we lack discard and lingering souls, but gain red-elemental blast, lightning bolt (pretty good card right now) & Blood Moon. Tough to say which is the better version in esper vs. patriot, but against the meta right now I would prefer to have a ton of spot removal.
Currently playing: Elves
Really like that list. It's just: Rest in Peace <> Snapcaster Mage. I think in a deck like this, Surgical Extraction is way better due to the ability to flashback them. It can also be sided in against combo, since we have a lot of spells to take out (up to 8 removal spells) and not a lot to bring in. Also, it lacks a little bit of card selection. It sucks if you happen to have the wrong half your deck in the wrong matchups (i.e. removal against combo or lots of counters against aggro). Removing a counter (or even two of them, I think 11 counters is a little too much. They are a bad topdeck if the opponent has something on the board already, and you can always flash them back if you need more) and a Clique to add a couple of Ponder could help, or maybe some SD.Tops, which would also enable Counterbalance in the board, which would be good against combo and control. Just some thoughts.
I have similar thoughts: 1 FoW, 1 Counterspell and 1 Vendilion Clique are the first things I would cut (although I would put the 4th Force and the 2nd Clique in the board then). Maybe the 4th Stoneforge is correct. For more card selection I would go for 1-2 Ponder. Simply because I am not experienced enough with SD.top and don't want to bring it to a big tournament (timing, suboptimal plays,..).
On Surgical vs. Rest in Peace.
Surgical is better against most combo and certainly better against reanimator than rest in peace.
Against dredge surgical+snapcaster can be good enough (if you are lucky to draw both), but RIP is certainly the better card in this matchup.
The thing about RIP is that it is really a card versus RUG, BUG and Jund whereas surgical is not. Sure there is an antisynergy with snapcaster but if I shut off Nimble, Goyf, Deathrite, Tomstalker & Punishing Fire, the opposing decks are hurt a lot more and I can probably win without snapcaster. If they remove the RIP from the board then the GY fills up fast and Snapcaster can get to work again.
Currently playing: Elves
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