I think blood sun is worth testing in a mono red shell. Shuts down ALL fetches which is huge in legacy, shuts off wastelands and ports, and you don’t have to sac your city of traitors. Seems like something an opponent has to deal with. That alone is great but we also get to draw a card when it comes into play which is great since we are typically out of cards pretty quick.
Yes and blood moon is awesome. Why not have the additional effects? But blood moon also allows your opponent to tap for red. I’m not saying play this instead of blood moon. I am saying that this can be another soft lock in some cases. This makes their fetches really useless. Maybe it won’t be a game changer, but it has definitely intrigued me enough to sleeve up mono red painter for legacy. If you think about the other blood moon decks like dragon stompy or moon walker, they have lock pieces in the form of chalice, trinisphere, and typically 3-4 magus of the moon while painter has 4 blood moon, maybe 1-2 magus, and red blasts (which are not continuous). I think that’s where blood sun fits in mono red. Just my 2 cents.
Right now, I would consider it if I play already full 8 moons and still feel I need more.
EDIT: I have played mono red for years and 7 moons is my constant favorite. I have sometimes played all 8 but usually the last slot is more valuable as something else.
Last edited by Hopo; 01-18-2018 at 03:59 PM.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
How do you fit all those maguses in the main? Would you care to share your list? I struggle to find space for one. Here is the list I will be testing. I have been playing it on mtgo but the board is mainly for the meta at my lgs.
11 mountain
8 sol land
1 great furnace
4 painter’s servant
4 imperial recruiter
4 simian spirit guide
1 goblin welder
1 magus of the moon
4 grindstone
4 pyroblast
4 blood moon
3 blood sun
3 ensnaring bridge
3 Chandra torch of defiance
2 sudden shock
2 red elemental blast
1 fiery confluence
Sideboard:
4 leyline of sanctity
4 leyline of the void
4 confusion in the ranks
1 manic vandal
1 fiery confluence
1 helm of obedience
The full set of leylines has been pretty good vs discard and obviously is decent against burn. I played multiple matches against storm the other day and bringing in the 8 leylines has worked better than the antistorm tools I’ve used in the past such as thorns and 3balls. The confusion in the ranks is for the god awful sneak and show match up. I have someone at my lgs who plays main deck abrade in SnS and goes up to a full play set after board so I can’t really rely on bridge too much. The helm is there because why not if I’m playing the play set of leyline of the void? Anyone think it is worth going back to bolts over sudden shock to deal with leovold?
Having some trouble against the new miracles but seems easier to beat than the old one.
Here's my current list: https://deckstats.net/decks/146/4396...ial-painter/en
The main deck Abrades are some serious tech. Now you can kill chalice with your creature removal spells.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Imperial Recruiter got a new reprint, with some nice new art!
I've recently picked up this deck as of a couple weeks ago. I've always had a soft spot for Painter. One of my first legacy decks was mono-red painter, mostly all in on the combo with some disruption. I've tried other builds of Painter, such as a more prison-based deck or a hyper combo deck (like mono-blue), but all of those fell short of consistently picking up matchups wins... or they just weren't my style.
Then I discovered Hisa's list on the forums here (list for ref: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/946496 ) and fell in love. It plays like a midrange deck that creates a lot of value and threatens a combo kill, as well as presenting a unique disruption package. I took the list to a weekly event and went 4-0. I then made some changes, adjusting the manabase to accommodate more Baleful Strix and kept doing well.
I played the below list at a legacy event yesterday, going 5-0 in swiss, then ID to top 8, then lost immediately afterwards against Storm.
Grixis Painter
4 Goblin Welder
4 Baleful Strix
2 Smuggler's Copter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Pyroblast
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Mox Opal
3 Grindstone
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
2 Search for Azcanta
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Inventors' Fair
Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Collective Brutality
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
2 Blood Moon
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid
I still like the list, but want to adjust the manabase to support the color package better. I want to swap the Tomb, Furnace, and Mountain for another Delta, a Vault of Whispers, and a Spire of Industry. My updated list is kept current, here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/947408
Let me know your thoughts. Not sure how to make the Storm matchup better.
- Zac
Strawberry Shortcake
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...erry-Shortcake
What a brainstorm do? Draw card and activate on draw effects fix hand, removing woods
#FreeNedleeds
Thanks, I didn't realize there was more than one painter deck discussion thread.
What's the state of RW / RWB painter at the moment? The manabase of either of those I already have available compared to the Painter Stone varients, and the imperial is much more appealing anyway. Are there any recent lists available to research/test?
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Marley, young shortcake apprentice. I have ideas floating around in my head every now and then but have no real desire to flesh them out anytime soon. I wouldn't even want to present anything because of how non-existent we are at the moment. Someday we will return, although that could be a very very long time.
I think Dan was the last person to be trying rwb with daretti's, he would be the person to ask if anyone is still trying to make it go.
Strawberry Shortcake
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...erry-Shortcake
What a brainstorm do? Draw card and activate on draw effects fix hand, removing woods
#FreeNedleeds
I'm am still a firm believer in the shortcake build. White offers a stronger 75 than other colours. I have still put up strong showings with it in smaller, but still high player skill events.
My top replacement has been relic of progenitus which I have been quite happy with.
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Mcbain, can you share your RW list?
I'm happy this thread is resurecting with the recruiter reprint.
I'm currently testing and adjusting a iPainter list with a slight touch of black for something like 6 months. I'm very happy with it at the moment, and keep winning/top 4 local tournaments. I used to play shortcake for a long time, but I feel the current metagame is better for a less combo-oriented playstyle.
Here is the list
lands
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
4 bloodstained mire
1 badland
1 swamp
2 great furnace
5 mountains
crea
4 painter
4 welder
3 recruiter
4 smuggler's copter
1 magus of the moon
1 phyrexian revoker
instant/sorceries
4 pyroblast
1 faithless looting
others
3 daretti, ingenious iconoclast
4 grindstone
4 lotus petal
2 ichor wellspring
4 bloodmoon
1 ensnaring bridge
Side
3 thorn of amethyst
1 trinisphere
1 sulfur elemental
1 wurmcoil engine
2 fiery confluence
2 pyrokinesis
2 tormod's crypt
1 darkblast (either 1 darkblast 2 rebs or 0 darkblast 3 rebs, still not sure)
3 reb
The deck feels very consistent. The 3 Darettis are 100% worth the black splash. Games are often grindy with lots of interactions, witch is very enjoyable. Ichor wellspring is sweet. I recently cutted the 4th recruiter for a looting, and for the moment it works quite well. Smuggler is simply awesome with the daretti+welder shell. Well, I think I found something I really enjoy. Will test it in a bigger tournament next month to give you a feedback...
This is going to be a tad long. I am happy to see that people are still slinging the shitty red men these days. I no longer have shortcake assembled in real life, but still test it online. Unfortunately I think the current open meta is not very favorable for the Shortcake that I championed too many years ago. I wanted to post some thoughts detailing why this is while also trying to lay some groundwork for others to test to see if Shortcake in some other iteration stands a chance. Unfortunately( or fortunately) I am not really in a place to do the testing anymore as I have slowly transitioned from competitive magic and play mainly casual formats these days. But no other deck has provided me as much enjoyment or won so many duals for me as Painter so I am hopeful that some of you can figure something out.
The banning of SDT crippled this deck. Now I know that isn’t news to anyone, and while I know everyone knows the first reason for this, the second may not be readily apparent. Yes losing the selection ability of SDT was brutal. The ability to grind is largely gone from Painter and all non-blue decks suffered from a loss of card selection. The utility of Welder, the ability to reliably keep Bridge active, to applications with Etutor were all lost. While this is really hard for any deck to overcome, it was the second effect that SDT had on the format at large that really kicked our little guy in the genitals.
Leading into the banning, Painter was already becoming less strong. New decks continued to get printings that were impactful, when Painter really only received marginal planeswalkers which were good, on theme for red, but never truly what the deck wanted. The reason the deck could post positive finishes was due to Miracles in the environment even while other decks were becoming worse match ups. Miracles always was a positive deck for Painter. And while Miracles as a deck was really never more than 20% of the meta, it was so strong that every other deck had to make concessions to beat it. That meant either going over or under it. Under it was tough as Terminus is dumb, but various Blade decks and slower lands lists really could combat Miracles. Both of these also happened to be positive match ups due to the fact that they all had to be prepared to beat Miracles. Even BGx style decks had to be able to combat the deck. And it is with Terminus ever present DRS wasn’t as reliable a way to stretch a mana base. So while the blue cantrip shell and DRS were heavily played, they were deployed in manners that were not as detrimental to Painter. The banning of SDT changed this. Grixis delver become much stronger as Decay was not needed, and its cards could be cheaper or more versatile. Piles of good stuff could compete in the race to the bottom with more cantrips as there was no fear of getting locked out. And without Terminus to prey on fast creature strategies, DRS on turn one become arguable the strongest play in Legacy. (As an aside, I know Miracles still exists in some fashion, but it is a much different beast, and I am not calling for any of these cards to be banned).
This leave Painter, and specifically Shortcake, in a weird spot. The environment that Shortcake was created in no longer exists. Current legacy is vastly different than the five years that I was heavily playing the deck. As such, if the deck is to ever be truly viable in a large meta again it needs a complete tear down. At its heart it was always a combo deck in a stompy shell. And I do still think that may be viable in some form. It is just figuring that out, which is difficult. I think the recent Shortcake lists are too tied to the past to do well in any mid size or larger tournament. (I am leaving out FNM style events as metas with 15-20 decks are inherently inbreed as people play pet decks and card selection for deck construction is often times limited).
So this leave us with what to do, and I think there are a few options. But the critical one is coming to some reckoning of how you will address DRS. Currently, it makes Blood Moon very tough to play, and it’s probably the card most keeping Blood Moon in check. Due to the way that Blood Moon is deployed in this deck, committing resources and a turn or 2 to get Blood Moon in play is a losing proposition against DRS. In any event you can expect that have half your games against a deck with DRS to have you on the draw, and this isn’t even considering that games 2 and 3 your opponent will likely play fetch lands more optimally. With current penetration of the card throughout the format, that is a really tough spot to be in. For the Blood Moon to matter you need to reliably destroy DRS before deploying Blood Moon as casting Moon and a removal spell in one turn likely would deplete a great amount of assets. It is this balance that really makes the deck difficult to pilot, bc while it was always a combo deck, which used Moon to steal wins, being just a combo deck, that is easily disrupted by the other cards in a DRS shell, is a bad place to be.
Moving forward I think the deck needs to mimic how decks morphed to fight Miracles. Either going under or over the other decks. This would mean drastically changing Shortcake to either a strong emphasis on increased Velocity and Selection, or a more Vintage approach where the overall power of the spell is so great that each haymaker is a must counter (There is also the option of a way to reliably combat DRS, as Jack has talked about Spellbombs and such, although to me that seems bad, but it may be an answer. If you are to try that I suggest upwards of 7-8 removal spells as you need one in hand on turn one to be able to make turns 2-4 like old shortcake after removal of the first DRS). Personally I would favor moving towards increased velocity. With cards like the Baubles, Gitaxian Probe, Goblin Welder, Sorceress Spyglass and Mox Opal it may be possible to have a critical mass of artifacts to basically overwhelm DRS and win with the combo completely forgetting about Blood Moon. A deck like this could use 1 or 2 copies of Moon effects main deck as the card can still win games, but it removes the chances of wasted resources in a majority of your games. As for the Haymaker approach I am not sure how that would look. I imagine it needs to deplete its hand reliable so that Bridge can stay active and likely uses Planeswalkers to generate value as the game runs long. With a stompy mana base, it may be possible to build something like Planeswalker control with the Painter combo.
As I said at the start, I think there is a chance for this deck to be in the tier 1.5 category again, I just don’t know what that will be. My gut tells me that the Velocity and Selection approach is key. Mulliganing and early lines of play were always critical to success with the deck. Cards like Gitaxian Probe and Sorceress Spyglass help with that while ensuring you aren’t wasting resources and time. I am happy to share some sample lists, that are all highly unrefined if people want to try and work on this.
And final note, am I the only one that thinks the original Imperial Recruiter art is far better than the new art. God I hate how the new art is technically better but has no soul or personality anymore. Fuck you Wizards. You will always suck, maybe even more than Mark Rosewater. Oh yeah and free Nedleeds, dude is the tits.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
I'm not sure if I'm the Dan referred to by Kap'n Cook but I'll gladly share my unrefined list. Unfortunately, I didn't work much on it for the past couple of months. There are so many interesting Painter Stone-lists posted, I'll get back to this soon. Below is pretty much the latest list I played in October-November. The 0's are cards I removed but still consider.
Btw, I felt like I needed some card filtering, I was thinking of 2 copies of Faithless Looting but having seen how much others like Smuggler's Copter maybe that is the way to go.
Bomberman-package:
2 Auriok Salvagers
0 Walking Ballista
0 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Urza's Bauble
1 Lodestone Bauble
1 Mishra's Bauble
Anti-combo package:
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Enlightened Tutor
0 Ethersworn Canonist
Painter-package:
4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Goblin Welder
Stuff:
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
4 Blood Moon
Mana-acceleration
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal
2 Lotus Petal
Lands (19)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Plateau
1 Badlands
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Great Furnace
2 City of Traitors
sb:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sphere of Law
1 Leyline of Sanctity
0 Engineered Explosives
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Fiery Concluence, considering 1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Containment Priest
1 Ajani Vengeant
I've read scroncor1's post twice now, really nice input and I guess I need to read it again, I don't have the years of experience with the deck that a lot of you have so I attack the meta from another angle. Actually, you mention towards the end a planeswalker control version, that is the approach that I and maybe drude1 have been playing.
So, I'll propose something here that probably won't work very well, I'll report back if it does..
Reading scroncor1's post I feel like maindecking Kolaghan's Command (still) and (here comes heresy, be warned) changing Blood Moons into Blood Suns. Why would anyone want to do that? Well, in a grindy Deathrite meta having a Blood Sun cantrip is very good, even if the effect is much worse, since you don't want to risk having cards that have no effect on the game - also preventing fetches works directly against Deathrite. If they can't fetch they don't get mana from Deathrite. And Kolaghan's Command further fights Deathrite in itself and Deathrite decks in general, while also buying back parts of the combo. Daretti IC is pretty good at getting rid of Deathrites and he's in the list too, so is Chandra, they are both terrific card advantage engines and board control. Playing Blood Sun actually makes some further sense in the lists I've been playing since they really want to use black and white mana, adding Kolaghan's to the above list has felt like going too far in the black splash with Blood Moons around. But with Blood Sun you not only hinder your opponent's mana development, you protect your own.
Actually, how do most decks run with a Blood Sun in play? Miracles for example, they suddenly lose like probably 50% of the lands in their deck and there will be less shuffling after Brainstorms. That must hurt a lot. It changes a lot in the deck, it's not as strong as Blood Moon of course but it does let you pressure the opponent with your planeswalkers and combo while protecting your mana base and causing some trouble for your opponent. Enlightened tutor is like the opposite of Kolaghan's Command, it's a precision surgery card that gives up card advantage so it would go to the board along with a few Blood Moons, trading for Kolaghans.
I agree the deck might require some reconstruction if it’s going to have consistency comparable to when Top was around, but the core could be salvageable and early Blood Moon is still a very strong play if you can apply some pressure. I like Daretti 2 and Ichor Wellspring in the deck. How do we feel about Smuggler’s Copter? Also has synergy with Welder and can close out games faster under a Blood Moon. Cycles through unneeded cards. Pia and Kiran Nalaar might not go astray either, and synergize with Wellspring.
Also thought about Scroll Rack, but we’re probably hellbent often enough that it wouldn’t be effective. Similarly the original Daretti serves the purpose of cycling through the deck, but is way too low-impact otherwise.
With Imperial Recruiter reprinting I thought maybe I could try to commit to make this deck in paper.
Having no other deck in Legacy beside Leylines haha.
Was looking into the differents list and I am torn between the Mono R or Mono U list. What do you guys suggest?
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