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Thread: [Deck] Imperial Painter

  1. #4921
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    I agree with McBain, a 3-0 means very little without context. We can use those lists for ideas but the ability to resolve a first turn moon in 4-5 games is too easy to make for very skewed results. The list def seems weird, and I would love to hear the reasoning behind the numbers chosen. The 4 Chandra is especially eye opening as that takes the deck in a more Dragon Stompy direction as those decks work far more with 4 drops, vs our reliance on 3 drops.

    With respect to Copter, I really think you should try it. I also thought it was a dumb idea and not what we wanted but after two weeks plus of heavy testing the deck feels better than it has in maybe years to be honest. I highly recommend testing them.

    Seth
    Öno matter how much you think you love somebody, youíll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  2. #4922

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by sroncor1 View Post
    I agree with McBain, a 3-0 means very little without context. We can use those lists for ideas but the ability to resolve a first turn moon in 4-5 games is too easy to make for very skewed results. The list def seems weird, and I would love to hear the reasoning behind the numbers chosen. The 4 Chandra is especially eye opening as that takes the deck in a more Dragon Stompy direction as those decks work far more with 4 drops, vs our reliance on 3 drops.

    With respect to Copter, I really think you should try it. I also thought it was a dumb idea and not what we wanted but after two weeks plus of heavy testing the deck feels better than it has in maybe years to be honest. I highly recommend testing them.

    Seth
    Is it this week for the new topic?

  3. #4923
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    I would love to get it posted this week. The google doc is just sitting on my laptop. History and theory are mostly written. Card choices are also done. I am working on match ups now. I feel good writing about everything except grixis delver Bc ironically I havenít gotten to play it that much. Once Iím done with all that Iíll have jack eyeball and then we will hopefully post it. I think it will still need additions and edits but I think getting it out there is best. I would like it before this coming weekend, but who knows. There is a legacy event in Maryland so I was considering making the trip down and playing in my first large paper legacy event in like two years.

    The list hasnít changed much from previous posts. I am settled on 73/75 and I am just trying to work through the sideboarding. I have found that I actually am sideboarding differently on the play and draw for every match up now which complicates things from a testing stand point. But that may be an error on my part.

    Seth
    Öno matter how much you think you love somebody, youíll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  4. #4924

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by sroncor1 View Post
    I would love to get it posted this week. The google doc is just sitting on my laptop. History and theory are mostly written. Card choices are also done. I am working on match ups now. I feel good writing about everything except grixis delver Bc ironically I havenít gotten to play it that much. Once Iím done with all that Iíll have jack eyeball and then we will hopefully post it. I think it will still need additions and edits but I think getting it out there is best. I would like it before this coming weekend, but who knows. There is a legacy event in Maryland so I was considering making the trip down and playing in my first large paper legacy event in like two years.

    The list hasnít changed much from previous posts. I am settled on 73/75 and I am just trying to work through the sideboarding. I have found that I actually am sideboarding differently on the play and draw for every match up now which complicates things from a testing stand point. But that may be an error on my part.

    Seth
    Okok thanks
    I will make a big tornament next week-end and i will probably play painter deck, thatís why i was asking.
    I hope i have all cards.

  5. #4925
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    I played in the finals of a local smallish tournament. Went undefeated in Swiss (4 rounds), got cut to top4, in semis beat merfolk and eventually lost to miracles.

    The deck was a blast and matchups outside miracles felt favorable. I mostly won by casting a Blood Moon and then stabilizing into anything that kills.

    Abrade did lots of work.

    Round 1: 2-0 Jund
    Round 2: 2-1 Grixis control, I think
    Round 3: 2-0 Turbo depths
    Round 4: id
    Semifinals: 2-0 merfolk
    Finals: 0-2 miracles

    //Main
    10 Mountain
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    1 Chrome Mox
    4 Painter's Servant
    4 Imperial Recruiter
    4 Grindstone
    4 Pyroblast
    4 Blood Moon
    4 Abrade
    3 Magus of the Moon
    3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Goblin Welder
    1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
    1 Hope of Ghirapur

    //Sideboard
    SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
    SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
    SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
    SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
    SB: 3 Fiery Confluence
    SB: 1 Kozilek's Return
    Some of my friends sell records,
    some of my friends sell drugs.

  6. #4926
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by sroncor1 View Post
    I agree with McBain, a 3-0 means very little without context. We can use those lists for ideas but the ability to resolve a first turn moon in 4-5 games is too easy to make for very skewed results. The list def seems weird, and I would love to hear the reasoning behind the numbers chosen. The 4 Chandra is especially eye opening as that takes the deck in a more Dragon Stompy direction as those decks work far more with 4 drops, vs our reliance on 3 drops.

    With respect to Copter, I really think you should try it. I also thought it was a dumb idea and not what we wanted but after two weeks plus of heavy testing the deck feels better than it has in maybe years to be honest. I highly recommend testing them.

    Seth
    Completely agree, wasn't suggesting that we use it for anything other than ideas. 3-0 in a small tournament, particularly for a deck with Blood Moon, could be the result of any number of things. I just thought there were some interesting things about the list.

    I think for mono-red lists, 4 Chandra is very reasonable, possibly even optimal. She is card advantage, removal and a win-condition rolled up into one card. I still think she might warrant testing in RW lists too, but I can see how you might feel that it pulls the deck in a slightly different direction to where you've headed, Seth.

    Really looking forward to the new post and reading what you have to say. I've been wondering about creating a new thread for my build of mono-blue painter with chalices. It feels a bit like a hybrid of Painter-Stone and Imperial Painter in terms of playstyle, so it doesn't really fit in either thread.

    @Hopo, nice one! I would've thought Miracles would be an alright matchup. Chandra is a beating for that deck to play against.

  7. #4927
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    @Jasper- I agree completely. I hope my comment didnt come off as condescending or anything as that was not my intention. I can not comment on a Mono red list anymore but I can see it be viable as those list probably should transition to a more Dragon Stompy list as that deck gets by with redundancies in place of card selection.

    Chandra is really strong, although in testing I have never really felt like she changed the dynamic. To be honest I have always tried to use planeswalkers in the list, and sporadically due to meta shifts they were strong plays. But mostly, I have tended to cut them as without Bridge we do have a difficult protecting them and I have struggled to get continued value from them. The removal that Chandra provides is replaced by Lavaman at this time, and he feels more on curve for what I think Shortcake lists should be working on. Like wise the Copter gives card selection, which isn't the same as Chandra's card advantage, but serves the same role by helping to give you the needed piece or answer quicker. \

    I can honestly say the more I test, Ancient Tomb into Copter is basically the second best start to the deck outside of Ancient Tomb-Painter, City- Grind stone win. Basically getting to see 6 plus cards over the first three turns, while dealing 9 damage is enormous, and the repeated activations are essentially mana free as you would otherwise me casting Recruiters, Welders, and Painters anyway on those turns. It is this dynamic that really surprised me. The amount of Decays and Fow that Copters have eaten is fantastic, allowing my Painters and Moons to live longer or resolve more frequently than they did when we had SDT. I think those two aspects, the mana efficiency and the resolution/lasting of combo pieces, are really critical and have given the deck new life

    Seth
    Öno matter how much you think you love somebody, youíll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  8. #4928

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by sroncor1 View Post
    The amount of Decays and Fow that Copters have eaten is fantastic, allowing my Painters and Moons to live longer or resolve more frequently than they did when we had SDT.
    Hmm, maybe it's just my local environment, but every time I cast a copter, they let it resolve, only to counter or remove whatever could crew it. Because of that, in my testing, Copter has been a disappointment to me. But I'm not giving up on it yet.

  9. #4929
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by sroncor1 View Post
    @Jasper- I agree completely. I hope my comment didnt come off as condescending or anything as that was not my intention. I can not comment on a Mono red list anymore but I can see it be viable as those list probably should transition to a more Dragon Stompy list as that deck gets by with redundancies in place of card selection.

    Chandra is really strong, although in testing I have never really felt like she changed the dynamic. To be honest I have always tried to use planeswalkers in the list, and sporadically due to meta shifts they were strong plays. But mostly, I have tended to cut them as without Bridge we do have a difficult protecting them and I have struggled to get continued value from them. The removal that Chandra provides is replaced by Lavaman at this time, and he feels more on curve for what I think Shortcake lists should be working on. Like wise the Copter gives card selection, which isn't the same as Chandra's card advantage, but serves the same role by helping to give you the needed piece or answer quicker. \

    I can honestly say the more I test, Ancient Tomb into Copter is basically the second best start to the deck outside of Ancient Tomb-Painter, City- Grind stone win. Basically getting to see 6 plus cards over the first three turns, while dealing 9 damage is enormous, and the repeated activations are essentially mana free as you would otherwise me casting Recruiters, Welders, and Painters anyway on those turns. It is this dynamic that really surprised me. The amount of Decays and Fow that Copters have eaten is fantastic, allowing my Painters and Moons to live longer or resolve more frequently than they did when we had SDT. I think those two aspects, the mana efficiency and the resolution/lasting of combo pieces, are really critical and have given the deck new life

    Seth
    Oh no, don't worry! Just wanted to clarify.

    I see what you mean about having difficulty protecting Chandra. It makes sense that the card package you're running instead can make up most elements of why we'd want Chandra while being more on-curve for the deck. It's also a shame that Chandra will get worse with the upcoming Dominaria rules update making her unable to damage planeswalkers.
    On a related note, I wanted to ask if you ever have trouble fueling Lavaman?

    When you put it like that, Copter does seem great, although I have at times had similar problems as Darklingske with getting crewers removed.

  10. #4930
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    @Darkilnksie- I will say that ensuring crewing of the Copter is sometimes an issue. In a recent game I got hit with 4 FoW on my dudes with a Copter on the table. I clearly lost that game. The thing is I am not sure any other two drop would have got there in that situation. So while clearly the Copter did nothing, the fear of it was able to get my opponent to commit a lot of resources keeping it inactive. Unfortunately my draws were not better to take advantage of this. So while the outcome was sub optimal, and a known risk, I think the upside is there. There will always be this weird tension in a red stompy shell where we struggle to control our draws and sometimes the gods of fate do not smile on you.

    I think in general when you are testing and playing for that matter, the outcomes of wins and losses are less important than the sequence and evaluating the why and how the game played out. You can often win even when you make misplays bc the deck just gives you what you need or your opponent gets flooded. So when I test I try not to pay attention to if I win or lose but how the game plays out. I think the above example is perfect for that. I lost that game, but it actually confirmed that the deck strategy was a good one. The odds were in my favor that I would draw more creatures or Blast effects than my opponent would draw counters. But variance was against me, but in 7/10 games I get there.

    @Jasper- Lavaman has been really interesting to be honest. Now this is just based on my memory, but I do not think I have ever done more than 4 total activations in a game. Usually it is 2. But this seems perfect to me. Killing a DRS, Delver, Pyromancer, or key elf is often all you need to do to open up a couple turn window to do the rest of what you need. In theory Copter will keep him fed, but if you are getting in repeated attacks with the Copter, you will see victory soon anyway. That or he eats a bolt which is also great bc that means one less removal for the Welder and Painter which are far more central to your game plan. I know I have said this before, but I think of him like the Welder, usually they do nothing, but lead to one big play that allows the deck to just win on the spot. That constant threat I think makes your opponent put my value to the card, which is great. So some of it is just managing expectations for what you need from the card. For me this upside along with its cheap cost and ease of crewing makes it a solid choice in the current meta. Now if DRS gets banned I would have to re examine the situation.(This is not me calling for a banning of any card, I will still stay out of that charlie foxtrot).

    Seth
    Öno matter how much you think you love somebody, youíll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  11. #4931

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Dear friends of the varnisher, I'd like to get your input on my list. I've just 4-0'd with it at a local event. It beat Miracles, Loam, BUG Delver, BUG Midrange. My overall stats after a few month are now 83% match win rate.

    [19 Lands]
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitor
    5 Mountain
    2 Great Furnace
    2 Wooded Foothills
    1 Scalding Tarn
    1 Arid Mesa

    [17 Creatures]
    2 Magus of the Moon
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Painter's Servant
    4 Imperial Recruiter
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Goblin Welder

    [24 other Spells]
    4 Pyroblast
    2 REB
    4 Grindstone
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Blood Moon
    3 Lotus Petal
    1 Abrade
    2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
    2 Sudden Shock

    [SB]
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 REB
    1 Abrade
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    2 Silent Gravestone
    2 Pyroclasm
    3 Thorn of Amethyst

    For the next round I want to make a few changes though. The Sudden Shocks were ok, but not great - so I'll likely do:
    main:
    -2 Sudden Shock
    +1 Abrade
    +1 Grim Lavamancer

    SB:
    -1 Abrade
    +1 Magus of the Moon

    Any thoughts?

  12. #4932
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by Athlete View Post
    Dear friends of the varnisher, I'd like to get your input on my list. I've just 4-0'd with it at a local event. It beat Miracles, Loam, BUG Delver, BUG Midrange. My overall stats after a few month are now 83% match win rate.

    [19 Lands]
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitor
    5 Mountain
    2 Great Furnace
    2 Wooded Foothills
    1 Scalding Tarn
    1 Arid Mesa

    [17 Creatures]
    2 Magus of the Moon
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Painter's Servant
    4 Imperial Recruiter
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Goblin Welder

    [24 other Spells]
    4 Pyroblast
    2 REB
    4 Grindstone
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Blood Moon
    3 Lotus Petal
    1 Abrade
    2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
    2 Sudden Shock

    [SB]
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 REB
    1 Abrade
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    2 Silent Gravestone
    2 Pyroclasm
    3 Thorn of Amethyst

    For the next round I want to make a few changes though. The Sudden Shocks were ok, but not great - so I'll likely do:
    main:
    -2 Sudden Shock
    +1 Abrade
    +1 Grim Lavamancer

    SB:
    -1 Abrade
    +1 Magus of the Moon

    Any thoughts?
    Overall looks like a fairly stock Imperial Painter listóa little difficult to say much about given no other context. Is there anything specific you want feedback on? Which matchups have you found difficult? Why have you made the card choices you've made? When you say you have an 83% match win rate with the deck, how many matches have you played and against what level of opponent?

    That said, looking at your list, the main features seem to be:

    7 sources of fast mana
    6 blast effects
    6 moon effects
    3 removal
    2 chandra
    2 revoker
    1 welder

    That is comparatively more fast mana and moon effects than most lists, which emphasises the point made a few times on this thread that Imperial Painter is moving more towards a Dragon Stompy shell with a different win condition.

    I'm curious about your some of your sideboard choices. For example, your choice of graveyard hateówhy have you gone for Silent Gravestone over, say, Relic of Progenitus or Tormod's Crypt? It does a decent job against reanimator, but seems very clunky when trying to stop PiF lines from Storm. It also does nothing to solve the problem of shuffle effects from cards like Emrakul out of decks such as Sneak and Show. In that match-up, you have to extract the Emrakul and then combo off again next turn if you want to kill them via the combo (giving them another turn to kill either combo piece or combo themselves).

  13. #4933

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by jasper View Post
    Overall looks like a fairly stock Imperial Painter listóa little difficult to say much about given no other context. Is there anything specific you want feedback on? Which matchups have you found difficult? Why have you made the card choices you've made? When you say you have an 83% match win rate with the deck, how many matches have you played and against what level of opponent?

    That said, looking at your list, the main features seem to be:

    7 sources of fast mana
    6 blast effects
    6 moon effects
    3 removal
    2 chandra
    2 revoker
    1 welder

    That is comparatively more fast mana and moon effects than most lists, which emphasises the point made a few times on this thread that Imperial Painter is moving more towards a Dragon Stompy shell with a different win condition.

    I'm curious about your some of your sideboard choices. For example, your choice of graveyard hateówhy have you gone for Silent Gravestone over, say, Relic of Progenitus or Tormod's Crypt? It does a decent job against reanimator, but seems very clunky when trying to stop PiF lines from Storm. It also does nothing to solve the problem of shuffle effects from cards like Emrakul out of decks such as Sneak and Show. In that match-up, you have to extract the Emrakul and then combo off again next turn if you want to kill them via the combo (giving them another turn to kill either combo piece or combo themselves).
    Jasper, thank you very much for your answer. I appreciate your input. The metrics were recorded from 16 matches (26 games) only, so far. The meta is fairly competitive, most players take the game seriously and regularly go to the big events all across europe. The meta is very diverse. My main goal of that post was to hear from the experienced players of this deck archetype if there are any red flags in my list. E.g. any cards I should not play or something that I'm missing. Hearing from you now that this list is fairly stock, I'm happy. As you noted, the main shell is pretty much dragon stompy and thus are the card choices. So lets focus on the SB - I'm not super happy with at least half the cards, due to lack of experience with this deck. But let me explain some of the choices.

    Storm: is an ok matchup, I found. I won't board in Silent Gravestone here. Moon effects are ok, but really good is the fast mana paired with blast effects. SSG is a surprise counter for their cantrips, which I suggest countering aggressively. And with a turn one Painter, everything becomes a target of course. I board in Thorns, more blasts and the surgicals to keep them off threshold and against the rare PiF. If I suspect Empty the Warrens, I also board in Pyroclasms.

    Silent Gravestone: comes in against most decks that run Surgical Extraction. I have lost games where they removed my grindstone with removal or discard. Its also great against reanimator.

    Where I'm currently struggling with is a) Miracles: specificially how do I remove a CB once resolved? b) The Emrakul shuffle effect - is Tormod's Crypt enough? What if they have multiple Emrakuls in the deck?

  14. #4934
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by Athlete View Post
    Jasper, thank you very much for your answer. I appreciate your input. The metrics were recorded from 16 matches (26 games) only, so far. The meta is fairly competitive, most players take the game seriously and regularly go to the big events all across europe. The meta is very diverse. My main goal of that post was to hear from the experienced players of this deck archetype if there are any red flags in my list. E.g. any cards I should not play or something that I'm missing. Hearing from you now that this list is fairly stock, I'm happy. As you noted, the main shell is pretty much dragon stompy and thus are the card choices. So lets focus on the SB - I'm not super happy with at least half the cards, due to lack of experience with this deck. But let me explain some of the choices.

    Storm: is an ok matchup, I found. I won't board in Silent Gravestone here. Moon effects are ok, but really good is the fast mana paired with blast effects. SSG is a surprise counter for their cantrips, which I suggest countering aggressively. And with a turn one Painter, everything becomes a target of course. I board in Thorns, more blasts and the surgicals to keep them off threshold and against the rare PiF. If I suspect Empty the Warrens, I also board in Pyroclasms.

    Silent Gravestone: comes in against most decks that run Surgical Extraction. I have lost games where they removed my grindstone with removal or discard. Its also great against reanimator.

    Where I'm currently struggling with is a) Miracles: specificially how do I remove a CB once resolved? b) The Emrakul shuffle effect - is Tormod's Crypt enough? What if they have multiple Emrakuls in the deck?
    No worries! Always happy to talk about painter. I hope my questions didn't come off as rude, just wanting to encourage some conversation beyond just posting a list.

    As far as the maindeck goes, I think it might be worth trying to find space for an additional Chandra. Some lists are running as many as four copies, and I think at least three is probably worthwhile. The card is just so versatile, providing you with card advantage, removal and a win condition rolled into one.

    How have you been finding Phyrexian Revoker? I've always liked it personally, especially in the mono-red version, but not everyone is running as many as 2 copies maindeck. Although it seems a little sacrilegious at first to only have one copy of Goblin Welder, I can understand it as the card is currently not very well positioned. Spellskite is another interesting card for the deck that you're not running, but you rarely want to tutor for it (just tutor for another copy of the card you want to protect) and it can be a little anaemic. That said, it protects the combo on a combo turn as well as allowing you to hide behind ensnaring bridge more effectively (where otherwise one piece of artifact removal would ruin your day).

    Ok, so Silent Gravestone is mainly for protection against Surgicals. (I wasn't actually suggesting boarding it in against storm, I just meant that sometimes one wants graveyard hate against storm.) If you find the storm matchup to be good enough between blasts, thorns and surgicals, then perhaps you don't want further graveyard hate for that matchup.

    Still, I'm not sure that Silent Gravestone is better than the other options. Relic of Progenitus can protect your cards against Surgical, as can Tormod's Crypt (in a pinch), if you think it's necessary to protect them. One of the draws of running additional Chandras is that you have more diversified win conditions. Although Silent Gravestone is excellent against Reanimator, the fact that it interferes with your Welder and your Surgicals is a little awkward. Nevertheless, if it has been playing well in your testing, don't let me put you off it. I just wonder whether you could make the sideboard slot do a little more by including a more versatile piece of graveyard hate.

    A single copy of Tormod's Crypt is good enough to deal with any number of shuffle effects. This is because Grindstone continues milling until their whole deck is turned over, and then the Emrakul triggers are put on the stack. If you respond to the triggers by activating Tormod's Crypt, their whole graveyard will be exiled, meaning that the cards can't be shuffled back in by the triggers.

    As far as Miracles goes, removing a resolved CB can be tricky. They won't always have a 1 on top, so you may be able to get it with a blast. Additionally, if you already have a Grindstone in play, they will have to consider trying to keep twos on top to try and keep you off the combo, giving you a window to destroy the CB. Once again, Chandra helps hereóshe can win you the game on her own and is difficult for them to answer.

  15. #4935

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by Athlete View Post
    Dear friends of the varnisher, I'd like to get your input on my list. I've just 4-0'd with it at a local event. It beat Miracles, Loam, BUG Delver, BUG Midrange. My overall stats after a few month are now 83% match win rate.

    [19 Lands]
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitor
    5 Mountain
    2 Great Furnace
    2 Wooded Foothills
    1 Scalding Tarn
    1 Arid Mesa

    [17 Creatures]
    2 Magus of the Moon
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Painter's Servant
    4 Imperial Recruiter
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Goblin Welder

    [24 other Spells]
    4 Pyroblast
    2 REB
    4 Grindstone
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Blood Moon
    3 Lotus Petal
    1 Abrade
    2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
    2 Sudden Shock

    [SB]
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 REB
    1 Abrade
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    2 Silent Gravestone
    2 Pyroclasm
    3 Thorn of Amethyst

    For the next round I want to make a few changes though. The Sudden Shocks were ok, but not great - so I'll likely do:
    main:
    -2 Sudden Shock
    +1 Abrade
    +1 Grim Lavamancer

    SB:
    -1 Abrade
    +1 Magus of the Moon

    Any thoughts?
    I donít think it is necessary to have the fetchlands. They were mainly played to have a shuffle effect with top. Not sure if the life points are worth thinning out the deck. However if you are going to now run grim lavamancer then by all means keep them in.

  16. #4936

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by jasper View Post
    No worries! Always happy to talk about painter. I hope my questions didn't come off as rude, just wanting to encourage some conversation beyond just posting a list.

    As far as the maindeck goes, I think it might be worth trying to find space for an additional Chandra. Some lists are running as many as four copies, and I think at least three is probably worthwhile. The card is just so versatile, providing you with card advantage, removal and a win condition rolled into one.

    How have you been finding Phyrexian Revoker? I've always liked it personally, especially in the mono-red version, but not everyone is running as many as 2 copies maindeck. Although it seems a little sacrilegious at first to only have one copy of Goblin Welder, I can understand it as the card is currently not very well positioned. Spellskite is another interesting card for the deck that you're not running, but you rarely want to tutor for it (just tutor for another copy of the card you want to protect) and it can be a little anaemic. That said, it protects the combo on a combo turn as well as allowing you to hide behind ensnaring bridge more effectively (where otherwise one piece of artifact removal would ruin your day).

    Ok, so Silent Gravestone is mainly for protection against Surgicals. (I wasn't actually suggesting boarding it in against storm, I just meant that sometimes one wants graveyard hate against storm.) If you find the storm matchup to be good enough between blasts, thorns and surgicals, then perhaps you don't want further graveyard hate for that matchup.

    Still, I'm not sure that Silent Gravestone is better than the other options. Relic of Progenitus can protect your cards against Surgical, as can Tormod's Crypt (in a pinch), if you think it's necessary to protect them. One of the draws of running additional Chandras is that you have more diversified win conditions. Although Silent Gravestone is excellent against Reanimator, the fact that it interferes with your Welder and your Surgicals is a little awkward. Nevertheless, if it has been playing well in your testing, don't let me put you off it. I just wonder whether you could make the sideboard slot do a little more by including a more versatile piece of graveyard hate.

    A single copy of Tormod's Crypt is good enough to deal with any number of shuffle effects. This is because Grindstone continues milling until their whole deck is turned over, and then the Emrakul triggers are put on the stack. If you respond to the triggers by activating Tormod's Crypt, their whole graveyard will be exiled, meaning that the cards can't be shuffled back in by the triggers.

    As far as Miracles goes, removing a resolved CB can be tricky. They won't always have a 1 on top, so you may be able to get it with a blast. Additionally, if you already have a Grindstone in play, they will have to consider trying to keep twos on top to try and keep you off the combo, giving you a window to destroy the CB. Once again, Chandra helps hereóshe can win you the game on her own and is difficult for them to answer.
    Thats excellent feedback, thanks so much jasper! I'll definitely try out a third Chandra. And now that I understand the mechanics behind the Emrakul shuffle better, I'll include other graveyard hate, likely Relic in the SB.

    Quote Originally Posted by SDBobPlissken View Post
    I donít think it is necessary to have the fetchlands. They were mainly played to have a shuffle effect with top. Not sure if the life points are worth thinning out the deck. However if you are going to now run grim lavamancer then by all means keep them in.
    Agreed, I think that was a mistake during my deck building, because I found the life loss to matter sometimes. So, if I find lavamancer to be not good enough, I'll definately cut the fetchlands.

    I'll post my findings with an updated list after a few more paper magic trials, stay tuned.

  17. #4937
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    I actually tried the Blood Sun experiment that I mentioned here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1037729

    I really liked them and will continue testing them. I'm going for a pure value build with Kolaghan's Commands and planeswalkers, pretty similar with what I posted above but with the Bomberman package replaced by Grim Lavamancer and Smuggler's Copter, an elegant innovation of the deck I think and I'm very interested in following your testing.

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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    @pettdan do you feel like Blood Sun is genuinely better than Magus? I haven't played with the card, but mostly when I've seen it played in Dragon Stompy or Mono-Red Sneak decks it hasn't been that impressive. It seems that against most decks, it gets much worse as the game progresses. Of course, it does help that it replaces itself. What is it that you like about them?

    @Athlete no problem! I look forward to hearing more of your findings.

    I ended up playing a league with a mono-red list yesterday, tired as I was of having a rough time with mono-blue against Grixis Delver and lured in once again by the proposition of Blood Mooning people out of the game. I went 4-1 and the deck felt overall good, with an increased number of moon effects and bridges buying time to mitigate the lack of card selection.

    This is the list I played:

    // Maindeck

    4 Grindstone
    3 Lotus Petal
    2 Ensnaring Bridge

    1 Goblin Welder
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    4 Painter's Servant
    2 Magus of the Moon
    4 Imperial Recruiter
    4 Simian Spirit Guide

    4 Blood Moon
    4 Pyroblast
    2 Abrade
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

    9 Mountain
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 Great Furnace
    4 City of Traitors

    // Sideboard
    3 Thorn of Amethyst
    3 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Pyroclasm
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Magus of the Moon
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

    ..and some slightly scattered notes from the matches:

    2-0 against Grixis Delver; on the play
    g1: mull to 6, make a turn 2 magus, find painter with recruiter, win
    g2: make a turn 3 magus after I have pyroclasm for his delver on turn 2, a few turns later I chandra ultimate for the win as he has pithing needle on grindstone

    2-0 against Lands; on the draw
    g1: mull to 6, make a bridge on turn 3, stop playing cards as he has loam+wasteland+GQ lock, so Iím waiting to draw a blood moon that I can cast off tomb + SSG; he durdles for a long time trying to run me out of basics. I eventually find the blood moon on turn 10; he has just turned the corner and started trying to kill me with pfire but heís one point short and blood moon locks it up
    g2: I keep a hand with a turn three kill, he makes turn 3 lage and tries to port me off the mana but I have a sol land in hand and kill him

    0-2 against Miracles; on the draw
    g1: Blood Moon just isnít great against miracles; I kept a hand with a turn one moon but no red other than a lotus petal, and get stuck unable to cast my cards in a timely manner because I canít find another land. he plays a counterbalance and I get handily beaten
    g2: I make an early chandra thatís met with a councilís judgement. I have a lethal board but he finds the terminus via a series of cantrips and casts it on my turn via brainstorm. itís possible I overcommitted, but I wanted to make him have it. I get him down to two cards left in his library but he beats me down with snapcasters

    2-1 against RB Reanimator; on the draw
    g1: I make a turn 1 magus, but he has the basic swamp to reanimate sire of insanity; I lose a few turns later
    g2: one of the strangest games I have ever played; I mull to 6 to find double tomb + surgical, which stops him from doing anything. I canít find another land for the next 7 turns, though, and heís slowly digging himself out. I'm beating him down with a Painter, but he has some removal for other cards and reanimates my dead phyrexian revoker naming my last crypt, then a magus of mine, and is eventually able to reanimate an elesh norn. I have him at 1, and am able to find a red blast for the norn and swing in with two painters, forcing him to chump with the revoker and block with the magus, winning me the game
    g3: I keep a hand with a high chance of a turn two combo, but get my painter thoughtseized. I play out my grindstone and put a spyglass into play on griselbrand while he does nothing for a few turns. heís eventually able to animate dead an inkwell leviathan, but I topdeck the painter for the combo win

    2-1 against BUG Deathís Shadow (feat. StifleNought!); on the play
    g1: I lose to a berzerk deathís shadow for exactsies after getting my second blast (targeting his second deathís shadow) forceíd
    g2: I make a turn one blood moon; he concedes on the spot
    g3: we trade cards, his thoughtseizes for my threats, but I draw into a painterís servant to match my grindstone and get him on turn 5. his dazes didnít match up well against my lotus petal


    I'm still toying with the idea of trying to play some copies of Smuggler's Copter in iPainter. I'd probably cut a couple of petals to go back down to five sources of fast mana, and perhaps Abrade, which underperformed for me. That said, I didn't face any Chalice decks, where it likely shines as the only maindeck answer to a Chalice on 1. Perhaps it's good enough out of the board, I'm not sure.

    I opted not to play any copies of Grim Lavamancer because I wanted to emphasise the high-impact plays that the deck can make by playing more moons and disruption. Lavaman is nice with Copter, but otherwise I think he might be a little low impact in too many matches to warrant a spot in this kind of build. One of the better things to do with him is kill Deathrites, but Deathrite doesn't disrupt us as much with only one copy of Welder anyway.

    As far as the rest of the board goes, having extra copies of Magus, Bridge, Chandra and Blast was nice for flexibility's sake. I'm still torn between Tormod's Crypt and Relic of ProgenitusóRelic replaces itself but can be quite poor against reanimator, where a combination of wanting to be able to activate on their turn (something Relic can't do without fast mana) and Chancellor's tax effect mean that Tormod's Crypt is better in the early turns. My feeling is that being able to play and activate Crypt in the face of almost anything, with no mana, means that it is more suited, as answering their first reanimation attempt will probably buy you enough time to draw the extra card that Relic would have drawn, but Relic being too slow can straight-up cost you games. A similar issue comes up when wanting to combo against an Emrakul deck because with Relic you need an extra mana available on a combo turn.

    That said, as far as protecting yourself from Surgical and being generally more flexible, Relic probably wins out. There's also the argument that it's less of a dead draw later on, but you shouldn't be siding in that kind of graveyard hate unless it's truly potent in the matchup, so I think that argument holds less weight.

  19. #4939
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by jasper View Post
    @pettdan do you feel like Blood Sun is genuinely better than Magus? I haven't played with the card, but mostly when I've seen it played in Dragon Stompy or Mono-Red Sneak decks it hasn't been that impressive. It seems that against most decks, it gets much worse as the game progresses. Of course, it does help that it replaces itself. What is it that you like about them?
    It's a hard question for me to answer, because I don't have the extensive knowledge with the deck and also because when I play the deck and strengthen the strategies that seem to be working well for me that takes me in a very different direction than the seemingly more dedicated Painter players here. And also I'm still testing it, Blood Sun that is, with very limited testing being done yet.

    When it comes to Moon Stompy and Mono-red Sneak Attack, in my view, a difference is that we try to put together a two-card combo that is very easy to interact with, while they are using pieces that are harder to interact with, both when it comes to their win conditions and when it comes to their redundant lock pieces. Painter also lacks the protection/threat from Chalice. I wouldn't play Blood Sun in those other two decks, I think, for these reasons. It could be tested, but Blood Moon has the stronger effect and Blood Sun probably has bad synergy with Magus.

    Playing a single lock piece that many opponents can play around (only really good on the play and landing t1, this can be discussed though), and playing a vulnerable combo together, and going all in with one-time mana sources has not been a good way to attack the (attrition heavy) meta for me. I probably should revisit a build more like yours though to reevaluate my opinion [edit: it's very likely I'm pulling in the wrong direction, I do realize]. Anyway, when I play card advantage pieces and ramp that stays around it pulls me ahead in games, it seems to me. I get to pressure the opponent in a way that they need to respond to while in parallel digging for the combo. And Blood Sun fits into that very well.

    When it comes to Magus specifically, I think that Magus is especially good vs BUG decks, and they seem to mostly be splashing red now which means they have multiple maindeck answers to the lock piece which means it's not really worth it at the moment, not in Painter anyway. I'm sure it can still win games, I have it in the board, but.. It's one of the cards I'm considering changing. Also, I'm not sure Magus fits next to Blood Sun. Maybe it does, since Blood Sun prevents the opponent from fetching for basics, but on the other hand playing Magus gives the opponent access to mana from their fetches, they would otherwise be dead cards.
    Last edited by pettdan; 03-23-2018 at 09:49 AM.

  20. #4940
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    I played in a local monthly 1k with basically Seth's list -1 Lavaman, +1 Welder, tweaking the sideboard a bit. I'm actually really impressed with how well the deck functions, it feels good to be playing painter again. Most issues I've run into so far have been either from wastelands, or a T1 chalice. It looks like Hearth Kami might be the cheapest recruitable creature that can deal with chalice. I might also go up one more land to 20, but I'm not sure what I would take out. It might just be ok to run a 61 card deck since we are kind of tutor heavy. Also, with the number of times I've made good use of Great Furnace with welder and E-Tutor in the few games I've played in the past week, I would never cut it, it's incredibly useful.

    I also randomly met Seth at a local weekly a few days ago when he saw me playing RW painter, asked which list I was playing and I said some list on the source, srancor1. He goes "oh ya, that's me." I didn't even know he lived around here.

    Anyways, here's my list and a small tourney report. I was extremely close to going into round 5 with a 3-1 record, but sometimes a lightning bolt can just ruin your day.

    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 Arid Mesa
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    4 City of Traitors
    1 Great Furnace
    3 Mountain
    2 Plateau
    4 Blood Moon
    1 Engineered Explosives
    3 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    3 Goblin Welder
    2 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Grindstone
    4 Imperial Recruiter
    3 Lotus Petal
    4 Painter's Servant
    4 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Smuggler's Copter

    Sideboard:
    1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Helm of Obedience
    1 Martyr of Ashes
    1 Peacekeeper
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    4 Rest in Peace
    1 Spellskite
    1 Sphere of Law


    Infect - Zac
    Win in 2 (1-0)
    Game 1: I win with painter+grindstone with 5 poison counters
    Game 2: I pyroblast a blighted agent in response to Vines, then he plays spyglass on grindstone, I topdeck a peacekeeper which stalls the game for a long time. Eventually I draw into pyroblast to kill spyglass and grindstone for the win.

    Death & Taxes
    Lose in 2 (1-1)
    Game 1: I keep a land heavy hand with a turn 1 blood moon on the play against an unknown deck. He plays plains and vial, then T2 SFM into batterskull and I die with a hand full of lands.
    Game 2: He plays revoker on grindstone, port and 2x wasteland keep me off mana. At one point I fetched a plateau pre-maturely to cast an engineered explosives to get rid of revoker, but forgot about sanctum prelate on 2 and it gets wasted. By the time I'm able to get enough mana to do anything it's too late and I die to prelate + flickerwisp beatdowns.

    Grixis Delver
    Win in 2 (2-1)
    Both of these games were pretty straight forward. He plays out delvers and attackes me while I play out welders, painters, and grindstones with pyroblast backup and combo before I die.

    Grixis Delver
    Lose in 3 (2-2)
    Game 1 (w): I win by assembling painter+grindstone. I think I used SSG to pay for a daze which is usually a really strong play, and a pyroblast to counter a FoW.
    Game 2 (l): He FoW's evething I try to do and quickly kills me with delver and bolts.
    Game 3 (l): This game came down to welder/painter beatdowns vs lightning bolts after getting my grindstone surgical'd. I pyroblast his delver after he bolts me end of turn with his last card in hand, putting me at 6. I attack him from 12 down to 6, then he bolts me again down to 3. I attack with the team and put him down to 3, play a recruiter and lavamancer and pass, then he draws a ponder and finds a 3rd lighting bolt for the win. If I had 1 more mana I could have recruited a cannonist or spellskite and won, or if he didn't find bolt I probably would have won next turn.

    Lands
    Lose in 3 (2-3) At this point it's not possible to Top8, so games 2 and 3 I try swapping out 3 copters and 3 moons for RIP/Helm and revokers, which is almost certainly wrong, but I want to see how it works against loam. Also in one of these games I play revoker thinking I can name thespians stage, which clearly doesn't work.
    Game 1 (w): I blood moon and he has no way to remove it main deck. He plays a molten vortex and gets be down to 6, before I use EE to blow it up, then he uses 2x punishing fires to get me to 2. He needs to topdeck another punishing fire for the win but I assemble the combo before that happens.
    Game 2 (l): I make a big mistake here at the beginning. I play Arid Mesa and lotus petal and pass, then at the end of his turn I use the petal to E-Tutor for my 1 blood moon without cracking mesa, and he wastes the mesa after it resolves. I decide to let the mesa go rather than shuffle away blood moon. I die to marit lage shortly after.
    Game 3 (l): I play a turn 1 RIP with an e-tutor in hand, he's got mox diamond, exploration, stage and depths already in hand and powers out Marit Lage on turn 2 or 3 and I die very quickly.

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