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Thread: [Deck] Imperial Painter

  1. #861

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by NormalGuy View Post
    I think this is probably a decent plan, but one issue is if they E.Tutor for the Helm, then you try to grind it away, they can activate Top to move the helm down to the 3rd card to save the Helm, or even activate the Top's second ability to get the Helm into their hand.

    The guy I was playing did admit that he had some pretty sketchy hands when I played the blood moon or Revoker on Top but still managed to win 5 of 6 games, all using RIP/Helm.

    I think Chalice of the Void on 2 may actually be a good sideboard addition. It only counters revoker and painter in our deck, but those can still come in via welder. It will counter RIP, Counterbalance, and Snapcaster in this particular matchup.
    You should bring in Revokers and name Top first, Second name Helm. There top is better then ours, and shutting that down is priority number one. Priority number two is not letting them stick a counterbalance. It's still a grind but cutting them off of Top + keeping counterbalance off the table should get you where you need to go.

    Edit: Also Miracles has such a slow clock. Put the pressure on them, and make them respond to you. Imperial Recruiter means that Terminus is a speed bump not removal vs us. One strategy is to Recruit more Recruiters, meaning that there Terminus is going to be weak. Recruiter is not much of a body... but he can get the job done if left unchecked.

  2. #862
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Please please please do not try chalice in this deck. That is a terrible idea. And early grindstone will not allow you to control the top deck of a competent player on a miracles list. They have brainstorm and SDT so you may get a random mill, but you will not be able to control what they do. Trying as such is an episode in futility.

    If you are playing a good opponent with miracles the recruiter chain is a great plan until they drop a Batterskull. Koth is your best friend in the match up and Moon effects are still really strong as cutting them off double blue is still really important. Stopping Counterbalance is really important as you need to be able to cut on your counter magic being cheaper than theirs. If you try and out control those decks you will lose to a competent player. I suspect this is why you are struggling when using Jandax's list. His has transitioned away from the more fluid builds to a control deck that flourishes in an aggro heavy meta. Your board should then include some spells to allow you to focus more on the combo and increasing resilency in those match ups if you are using his list. It is unlikely you can add enough control to out control a true blue control deck.

    Just my 2 cents, which nobody seems to listen to anymore.

    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  3. #863
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    I already said more than once that this deck is a weaker control deck in the matchup. And I was just musing on some ideas, because I think I've played all of one Miracles match with the deck and lost hard. It's not fair to say no one is listening especially when you haven't replied to the Miracles/Helm question in the first place. Recruiter chaining may indeed make the most sense, you need to add 2 cents more often...

  4. #864
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    If you want to try and out control them I would recommend adding Viashino Heretic to your board. It beats one of their win conditions and will actually allow you to control their SDT which is huge. That and a third Welder should allow you to get over the top. Koth is still the tits against anything running Jace. I also recommend people try out equipment configurations. Without the white splash you should probably run Jitte is all metas unless it's infested with NiC Fit style decks.

    My version of the deck is middle of the road in its 60 and when I sideboard a general strategy would be to remove either the control or aggro component for games 2 and 3. This allows you to focus your strengths to attack the various decks. Starting off with a more control she'll makes this a little more difficult but Equipment is also really good against Miracles as you don't have to commit cards for board strength. And they will still be there after the removal is played.

    @ Jandax- I wasn't talking to you with the 2 cents comment. Just the thread in general and the source in general really. People don't think and try things anymore. They expect someone to give them the answers and think all answers posted are the right ones. I give you credit for testing and modifying a deck that I have spent the better part of nearly six years testing and tweaking. You maximized it for your meta which is what everyone should do. I recommend everyone on this board and thread to google mtg the dojo. It's old and the posts from 1996-1997 really focus on a time when shit like Maro was a standard all star, but the fundamental strategy and discussions are really informative as the internet and sharing of ideas was in its infancy. The strategy and fundamentals could really help most people to this day about how to approach the game, deck construction, sideboard ink, and meta gaming along with an amazing article( maybe the only truly none dick baggy thing) mike Flores wrote called who is the beat down.

    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  5. #865
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    I actually wrote for a Dojo sister site back in the day, I forget the name. That'd be hilarious to dig up. It was an MTG News column, and at the time my resources were before Google and when Scrye/Inquest was in print

    It wasn't news and I was way in over my head.


    And I know you didn't direct that at me, but you gotta realize others realize that it's easier to ask for an answer than go out and find it out for yourself.

  6. #866
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    So after reading many of the recent posts I felt like this post is needed. It is related to Painter but it also really is about Magic in general and what you need to do and be able to do if you want to win. Now I’ll never say I am a good player, but I have the fortune of playing Magic for a very long time at this point. At this point it is entirely likely that I have played this deck longer with more hours spent with it than anyone else. SO sometimes I apologize if I’m a little short when people make comments are suggestions about the deck that have been tested, explored, or take it in a direction that I know will not lead to success.
    I now need to address the notion of saying the deck plays the control role. I do this as much as anyone else and its lazy from a game theory standpoint to say bc the deck doesn’t really ever play a control role. Moon effects are really a prison type element. I’ll use Vintage as a good example. Much like workshop decks, Moon cuts off resources, in this case the correct colored mana, and in that way it can “control” certain elements of the game. Ensnaring Bridge is the same thing as it “controls” combat, but even with these cards we aren’t controlling the game really, just locking out certain parts so that we can employ our own means to victory. Much like Vintage shop decks, they lock down resources then swing with any number of dudes they do. Painter’s “control” elements function in much the same way. So I think people should look at it in a more prison sense. So if you want to modify the build think more about elements to lock out resources. My advice would be to try and find cards that augment this strategy, although as I will not later I think this is in general a bad idea.
    Painter is a fun deck and it is a versatile deck. But at its core it is a combo deck. The thing it does best is combo out games. Pure and simple. As I noted above it can play prison elements, although usually not as strong a strategy in this deck as the combo elements( Variance, which I address in detail later, sometimes makes the prison elements stronger than anything else, but don’t worry I will address it). We shouldn’t use agro when we talk about the deck bc the beat down plan is more reactive to a clear board state and a lack of ability to combo at this time. At no point is Painter a true aggro deck or plan like Zoo was years ago. Currently there is no aggro deck in Legacy. We do the beat down plan as a means to an end but you should never open up your first seven cards and keep the hand thinking I’m on the beat down plan. (Aside, one of the first lists Hollywood built was with 3 Figure of Destiny and 3 SoLS. I can not remember if this predated goyf, but I would say that deck could be said to have a true aggro plan as FoD scaled beautifully at the time and was a truly aggressive creature. With the Equipment you could play the deck in a manner where you were committing resources to the board and using your man to directly attack you opponents life total from the begging. Currently there is nobody’s version that actually is configured in this way. I suspect that there is a possible way to build the deck for a given meta where this is still possible. But with the increase in strength of creatures over the past five years this seems like a basically wasted idea as we could never scale the deck without losing its other elements. So itr may still exist but I suspect if you found it it would be like running Burn, and overall shitty idea that is basically just a waste of your entrance fee. )
    I will be happy to address the fact that the combo aspect of the deck is the strongest and the others avenues we have are very watered down compared to other decks with those strategies, but now I want to address Variance as it directly ties into this being a Combo deck first and foremost. The strongest card in Legacy is probably LED or Adnausseum. The reason storm doesn’t win more is due to variance. It can do the most broken things but at the same time it can just dick around trying to find the correct combination of those crazy powerful cards. The deck with the least variance would be a Stoneblade variant. They are able to use their cantrips to minimize the variance, ensure consistent draws and ensure that they have the correct card for each situation. With the exception of Jace no card they run is broken are even close. ( I am not addressing Brainstorm here. I would say probably 99% of what is written about Brainstorm on the internet is wrong. Using it first turn can often times be better than waiting till turn seven bc early use may make the deck more consistent in the long run as the first couple turns may be at a premium relative to the loss of total cards seen by turn seven as seeing ten cards on turn 1 is stronger than seeing 17 cards on turn seven in setting up the rest of the game. However the more cards you see the more likely you are to find the correct card you need.) The pros and good players play stoneblade bc of the decrease in variance. If you want to do well at a large event with a varied meta and good players you choose the deck with little variance. This is why zoo was great 4 years ago. Essentially every card was the same in the deck, making it incredibly consistent with no truly powerful cards in its maindeck.
    Variance is a huge part of painter. It is one reason that it really isn’t a great choice for a huge event if you really want to win. I continue to play it bc I love the deck. As a doctor I have little time to play magic anymore but I know the deck well. Due to the variance rounds are short which I like anymore. If you really want to win with the deck you should be trying cards that minimize Variance. Diluting down the deck to do too many things will only increase said variance. By adding more prison elements( which is an overall weaker strategy), you are increasing your variance. Thus it may work for a match but that doesn’t mean it was the correct play. This is why when I play storm I go all in on the combo with a hope of mild disruption. There are about a half turn to a little less than a full turn faster than us. ( the difficulty in the turn depends on if its Empty the Warrens vs Tendrils). I have been fortunate to play against some of the best Storm players in the world as the Syracuse crew comes to DC area often. Against Bryant and Royce and the rest canonist may occasionally win you the game, but a good storm player can more often then not beat that one piece of disruption. The only true way to make the canonist or thorn work would be to have it with the combo elements in hand. Once you start wasting your tutors to find the weak disruption you are watering down your overall best strategy to strengthen a weaker strategy. It is as equally likely that a good player and a terrible player will draw the nuts with storm and just beat you turn one. Its variance and it happens. But I know most of the time if I can increase my decks consistency, know my deck better, that most of the storm players I sit across from I am better than and I can leverage that small advantage to allow my combo to beat theirs.
    This post has some broad strokes, but I hope my points that strengthing the combo should be your number one priority. This is why I still feel that the white splash is the strongest version of the deck. ( I will never say that I have the best build), but I am pretty sure that the white splash is the best as it addressing everything I just posted. It cuts down on Variance giving you an incredibly strong tutor that strengthens the strongest aspect of the game. It allows the prison component to be stronger and more focused in the match ups where that will allow for the time for victory. And with the recent board it gives you access to a better beatdown plan at minimal cost if you have to shift focus away from the combo. It also uses RiP which strengthens the combo while giving you more combo pieces overall. Which again this is a combo deck first and foremost.
    I mentioned the Dojo before bc without these fundamentals understood nobody can hope to do well in magic. You may win one tournament or have a hot run just based on match ups or luck, but you will never be able to advance the deck or your play without it. Painter will never be a deck to beat, even if recruiters were five bucks. Its due to variance, but I love the deck and will try to continue to make it better. Nobody has to listen to anything I said but if you do I promise that after time you will have more success with this deck and any other deck you play.

    seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  7. #867
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by sroncor1 View Post
    Hollywood use to use Anarchy back say five plus years ago. It worked as a great reset button that he could control. Although I don't think you should use it against miracles. Your combo should be faster, you generate more mana, and run as many counters to their counters as should be needed. The combo is realistically a fifth turn at best combo. Learning when and how to force your pieces through in the match up May be your best strategy. Moon while not great can still be really strong against them. They need their fetches. And welder and painter should be enough to overwhelm their removal and counters.

    Seth
    Anarchy is really fun with a Painter's Servant out on "white."
    "There's a legend round here. A killer buried, but not dead."

  8. #868
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Hollywood, good to hear from you man. Does this mean you are back playing painter? You getting down to Bmore/DC area to play anytime soon?

    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    That was a helluva post, seth. I, for one, will admit that you snapped me out of a false-truth mentality about the deck. I still don't know if I can bring myself to splash White, but I will be revisiting the more combo heavy version that I've played before. Changing the deck around isn't as much fun as crushing with it.

  10. #870
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    @jandax- yeah in your meta your list may very well be the best build. It's hard to say. But I do think a general strategy should be to strengthen and allow the strongest aspects of the deck. But I am happy you liked the basic premise. It's important that people try the deck and really lose with the deck. I remember the first event I played in with it. I def shit the bed a few times that first time. But I learned so much. Really anyone picking this deck up should really just play one of the lists from the front for like 5-6 months then start to make changes and modifications. It's an incredibly hard deck to pilot. Mainly due to the difficulty in keeping of opening hands. E tutor makes The deck even harder as it will make it more consistent but opens more decision trees to work through.

    I'll try and keep track of how I do Sunday and will post a response of the SCG open in Bmore

    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  11. #871

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Don't think I'm going to make SCG Baltimore this time around. I think iPainter and moons are poised to do very well there. Good luck to all the Painters who will be there!



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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Picked up some signed beta mountains today for the deck, and tested against a few of my friends playing Miracles. I went about 75/25, as Blood Moon did some work. Tested a round against Stoneblade and went 1-2. Eh, I can't do anything about Batterskull, Jitte, and Clique. :P Anyways, theres a big tourney coming up in my area, so I'll be Blood-Mooning people there!
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    You have Bridge for the Stoneblade matchups. That's something. Revokers on their equipment, too. Don't just roll over. Sure it's one really consistent deck with a decent clock, but iPainter has a lot of cards they must deal with before they can establish control of the board.

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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by jandax View Post
    You have Bridge for the Stoneblade matchups. That's something. Revokers on their equipment, too. Don't just roll over. Sure it's one really consistent deck with a decent clock, but iPainter has a lot of cards they must deal with before they can establish control of the board.
    I drew bridge once, and it was countered, and the Revoker I drew was swords.
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Well were you putting those cards onto an empty board? I don't know the game state, but Stoneblade does have a lot of consistency so you would have to run things into counters/removal before sticking the all important Bridge.

  16. #876

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by jandax View Post
    Well were you putting those cards onto an empty board? I don't know the game state, but Stoneblade does have a lot of consistency so you would have to run things into counters/removal before sticking the all important Bridge.
    This was my first thought.

    Variance and bad luck aside...
    You want to keep a threat heavy hand. We pack painter/stone combo, moons (which can eat counters and are good here), koth, and bridge to name a few. These have to be answered and you should be able to stick something.

    Of course you won't win every game :). But with a lot of practice the miracles matchup is definitely not as bad as it seems (as I once thought).


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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Good day all, First post to the source as I am new to legacy. though the grand daddy of legacy for my area directed me here.

    My second ever game of legacy was playing IPainter for a local dual lands legacy event. I got to say i fell in love with the deck.

    I have ordered most of the staples (moons, grindstones painters and the such) and will try to contribute with some game reports as i start my grind to eventually afford real Recruiters.

    I just wanted to thank you all as I spent a good few hours reading all the posts here to determine if the deck fit my playstyle (prison/combo) and to determine how to side board for my likely match ups.

    I ended up going 2-3-0-1 and all my losses were incredibly close. The TO mentioned that my deck was the most stressful thing he had played against in a long time. so thanks again all

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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by jandax View Post
    Well were you putting those cards onto an empty board? I don't know the game state, but Stoneblade does have a lot of consistency so you would have to run things into counters/removal before sticking the all important Bridge.
    He had countered a few of my early threats (Recruiter/Servant/Grindstone), and he assembled quite a potent board state, giving me one turn to draw an out. I drew Bridge, and he was able to hardcast Force.
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  19. #879
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    So quick update. Jack is second in the top 8, going 8-1 on the day. I finished in 36 with a 6-2-1 losing a hard breaker to Jund and show and tell omni. I'll post some thoughts and I know jack will also. Good day for Painter.

    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  20. #880

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Nice job guys!


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