Hah, the SB guide only includes the MUs I played most recently, which I admit makes Blood Moon look bad, but here are some examples where I think Blood Moon shines.
Eldrazi:
-4 Pyroblast
-2 Red Elemental Blast
+4 Lightning Bolt
+1 Phyreian Revoker
+1 Walking Ballista
Grixis Delver:
-1 Magus of the Moon
-1 Phyreian Revoker
-2 Red Elemental Blast
+4 Lightning Bolt
Canadian:
-1 Magus of the Moon
-1 Phyreian Revoker
+2 Red Elemental Blast
Grixis Control
-1 Ensnaring Bridge
-1 Goblin Cratermaker
-1 Magus of the Moon
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Surgical Extraction
Lands:
-1 Goblin Cratermaker
-1 Magus of the Moon
-2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Surgical Extraction
+2 Tormod's Crypt
4c Loam
-1 Magus of the Moon
-4 Pyroblast
-2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+4 Lightning Bolt
+1 Surgical Extraction
12 post
If you see Emrakul G1:
-1 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Tormod’s Crypt
Else: No SB
And even vs. many MUs where Blood Moon is not great in G2/3, is still fine G1; like vs. Miracles, Blood Moon G1 disincentives BTB.
As for the SB, I actually think Pithing Needle and Sorcerer Spyglass are slightly better wish targets than Phyrexian Revoker, but Phyrexian Revoker maps out better in a few MUs. The difference in power level are marginal in practice.
I'm also brewing an all-in Welder/Engineer build, but I think the more classic prison approach is still very viable.
PS: I also like Liquimetal Coating, but don't have the space for it. I might replace Lattice since Lattice feels like a win-more a lot of times.
Edit: Fixed some SB numbers.
Last edited by L10; 06-23-2019 at 12:18 PM.
Haha, I'm right there with you, I definitely agree that Moon effects belong somewhere in the 75. We take very different approaches to the maindeck and SB though. No consideration for any Thorn/Trinisphere effects in the sideboard? It is kind of a nombo with Blasts, but the only matchups where you're bringing in Trinispheres and not boarding out Blasts are like, Miracles, Sneak and Show, ANT, and maybe Delver? Matchups where a resolved Trinisphere is pretty backbreaking anyways and you can still fight with your 1mana counterspells to punch it through. I do see the appeal of Lightning Bolts and would like to slot them in but I think the Trinispheres would have to be cut in favor and I'm not sure if it's worth it or not.
I was also toying with the idea of Liquimetal Coating, and like you said, I think Lattice would need to be cut. But I have won about 25% of games with Karn into LED into Lattice. Though Coating seems strong to wish for in the face of walkers and turning off a land for the turn doesn't seem too terrible?
My list for reference is:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
9 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Smuggler’s Copter
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter’s Servant
3 Goblin Welder
3 Goblin Engineer
2 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Grindstone
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
SB:
1 Grindstone
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
7 sol lands, 25 mana sources total, 21 ways to crew Copter (17 men + 4 Karn). I like having as much consistency in the maindeck as possible and let things get a little more toolboxy postboard. Jitte and Greaves are currently flex slots I'm testing out, were previously Karn, Scion of Urza but I'm trying to keep things a little bit lower to the ground. On paper the equipment are solid Engineer targets, strong vs control and can do a little bit better vs Delver than more 4-drops that get Bolted.
I do like Thorn and Trinisphere in the SB, but not for the PW-centric build. I find that most of the time, if I can jam a PW, my chances of winning against both fair and unfair decks rises significantly. Against decks with counter magic, I would ideally have RRR2 mana ready to cast both PW and blast for protection, hence me having access to 8 blasts in the 75. If I play Thorn or Sphere, I would need RRR4 mana, which is harder to manage. My mana base is higher than most builds (14 Red Lands, 8 Sol Lands, 4 SSG) to compensate the higher mana curve.
Chandra alone can carry most games by herself (90% vs. fair decks, 80% unfair decks). Even if my opponent manages to get rid of Chandra, they would have expend so much resource or turns that it gives me to window to set up the combo and win. If I can jam Karn, my chance of winning vs. both fair and unfair decks are around ~85%-95%, which is why I am playing the full set.
The reason why I am considering to swap the Lattice for Coating is because Lattice is harder to jam the same turn I resolve Karn with my build unless I am already flooding out or have Chandra on the field. In your deck, LED/Lattice is better due to welder/engineer/copter shenanigans. Also, I find these cases pretty identical:
Karn -> Wish for LED -> Wish for Lattice
Karn -> Wish for Grindstone -> Wish for Painter
For Lightning Bolt vs. Thorn/3Sphere for my build in particular:
1. Vs. Miracles, it kills PW, Mentor, and Clique, allowing you to save blasts for the combo, CB, or BTB depending on your mana situation.
2. Vs. Stoneblade, same reasoning as Miracles, but also kills SFM.
3. Vs. Delver, it kills Dreadhorde Arcanist, which can carry their game. There are also corner cases where Wasteland can get you.
4. Thorn is a nonbo for my PW-centric strategy of this build in particular, see above.
I will comment on your build in particular when I get the chance after work.
I like the direction of your deck. It's pretty similar to something I am considering to try, now that I have first hand experience of Engineer.
I am not sure about Jitte in the main because most of the creatures we have don't attack well. If I were to choose a creature removal artifact in the main, I'd probably go for Pyrite Spellbomb. Pyrite Spellbomb can also cantrip, so it's not completely ever dead. I think Jitte is better in the SB.
I like the idea of Lightning Greaves for protection, but I think Spellskite works better in that function. If you are primarily using Lightning Greaves to activate Welder and Engineer, I'd actually consider Thousand-Year Elixir. You get immediate value from Welder and Engineer, and can untap them for second activation.
I will also consider to try Filigree Familiar and Solemn Simulacrum as a way to generate raw card advantage like we used to do with SDT. Filigree Familiar can be tutored by both Engineer and Recruiter, and life gain can be relevant. Solemn Simulacrum can only be tutored by Recruiter, but provides more CA than Filigree Familiar.
For the SB, I think I will try 2:1 split between Damping Sphere and Trinisphere. Since you are only playing 2 Moon effects, Damping Sphere can act as additional Moons vs. 12-post and Eldrazi.
That's what I get for posting at 5AM, pre-coffee.
I also like the idea of a minor black splash for Nihil Spellbomb because it can generate CA with Welder and Engineer, is an out vs. SnT, and can be randomly good vs. grave synergies. But I like the stable manabase of mono-red too much.
I don't like Pyrite Spellbomb because 2 damage just doesn't cut the mustard against Arcanist or a lot of other threats. The creatures don't HAVE to be good attackers, that's the whole idea of Jitte imo. And one -1/-1 activation on Arcanist shuts it down for the turn. And I don't really like the idea of paying 2 life for Spellskite in aggressive matches, though it is a nice blocker. Regardless I need to keep testing them. Didn't come up enough in matches. Also still up in the air with Bolt vs Trinisphere. Need to test the 3ball for vs Delver, but imo the Bolts felt low impact in my playtesting yesterday. I think handling multiple threats in 1 card is really necessary. Trinisphere weakens both Arcanist and Young Pyro and is an absolute must counter for them which can open up jamming the combo.
Bolts were nice vs Goblins, but they are like a turn 4 deck at the fastest. Just have to be aware of Wastelands and play around them if possible.
I'm not that interested in grindy cards. I think blasts are enough vs blue decks and Familiar and Solemn are more cute than anything (yeah yeah so are the equipment).
Damping Sphere is not a bad idea and I have considered that before, though in the matches where you want it as Trinisphere, having your Sol lands online is nice.
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Last edited by Jaynel; 06-30-2019 at 09:31 AM.
I’ve on and off tested sword of red and white I think it was. Gain life per card in hand and deal damage per card in opposing hand? The protection colours are relevant, and it racks up damage quick, and moves us away from low life totals. It’s great when I get it, but seemed a bit too niche to be used effectively.
I’ve also been testing coating + shenanigans and have been pretty impressed so far. Super slow though, but much more resilient and flexible than shaman. Can’t be tutored though, so that’s really irritating.
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Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
Seems that we need to shake thinks up here.
what about the new tools for our deck? I already give up on recruiter with the goblin engineer. we can get away of chalice and do some crazy sh3t with welder and engineer.
the new tools
Karn, the great creator and goblin engineer.
CalebD used a similar list to mine, but with recruiter. I think that the deck gain a lot of power level with the new goblin and karn.
used this list in some playtesting and 14-2 against dat/miracles/dragon stompy/UR delver
5 mountain
3 Great Furnace
4 ancient tomb
3 Darksteel Citadel
2 city of traitors
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Goblin Welder
4 Goblin Engineer
3 Painter Servant
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lotus Petal
3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 pyroblast
4 red elemental blast
4 faithless looting
3 blood moon
3 blood sun
3 Karn, the Great Creator
sideboard
4 Leyline of the void
2 abrade
3 sulfur elemental
1 ensnaring bridge
1 mycossint lattice
1 painter servant
1 grindstone
1 spellskite
1 helm of obedience
1 Racthet bomb
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Liquimetal Coating
Eldrazi aggro player
Working in MonoR welder/engineer painter deck
In love with CoTV and Legacy for so many years
3-1 tonight with a fairly standard list. Only deviation was 2 Ensnaring bridge main, 1 side. A lot of depths decks in our area. Beat Dredge 2-0, was lucky game one I blasted a turn 2 breakthrough and slowed him enough to get bridge going with welder and blasted flayer of the hatebound with dread return for grave troll on the stack. Lost to elves. Turn 2 Moon on the play not good enough. Beat lands. Moon game 1, turn 2 combo game 2. Beat sneak n show. Bridge after he show and tells emrakul and I put in recruiter for engineer to get bridge. Game 2 he surgical my engineered bridge but doesn't draw any action and I bring the mediocre beats.
One really interesting thing I saw tonight is how people change how they board against me depending on what they see game 1. Like dredge boarded in leylines because I beat him with welder stuff. And sneak and show boarded in surgical because I was doing welder tricks as well. All of this even though in my personal opinion grave hate isn't really that good against the deck. Maybe with engineer things are a bit different but both times my opponent used their grave hate to slow me down I was totally fine with it because it just meant they had one less good card for their gameplan
I think that looting in a list with both Welder and Engineer is an excellent idea. Especially looting over Gamble. Wit Looting you at least have some control over what you discard.
The only thing I'm wondering is why Blood Sun? In the current meta with lots of Depths isn't it a liability over Moon?
Blood sun: for depths it does the same as blood moon, except it doesn't affect urborg / make non-basic mana producing lands only produce red. It stops wasteland, fetches, dark depths (in the same way as blood moon), thespians stage, and draws a card.. it's redundancy. I kind of like it.
Another Painter monstrosity brought to you by CalebD:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2170607#paper
Maindeck:
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Goblin Engineer
4 Goblin Welder
2 Imperial Recruiter
3 Painter's Servant
3 Punishing Fire
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Veil of Summer
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Grindstone
1 Ichor Wellspring
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Mountain
3 Taiga
Sideboard:
1 Painter's Servant
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
2 Walking Ballista
I'm trying to find room in the list for 2-3 Smuggler's Copters as they seem incredibly good with Punishing Fire. How do we feel about -1 Lion's Eye Diamond and -1 Veil of Summer to make room in the main?
I see your point and was only spitballing idea's. As I see the list of Caleb, I'd rather play it as it stands before making changes. And if I make changes, Copter will not be included. I never liked Copter and I don't play it for several reasons, among which the arguments stated by Michael.
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