[Deck] Imperial Painter

[sroncor1]

I think there are a lot of variables that play into which grave hate is played. In a vacuum RiP is probably the single strongest piece of hate ever printed for the graveyard. Its downsides are in the color requirement, 2 mana, and it hits each graveyard equally. You lose the ability to use Welder effectively in these match ups when you want RiP to land early and stick. The plus is that it works well with the combo and ensures that the library recursion is handled. Crypt has many of the same uses and it is colorless, free, and wieldable which is huge. I do not think either is better, just to get full use of them they require deck boarding steps. I still continue to run 4 RiP with one Helm in the board. I still like the oops I won aspect of it. The fact that you open up easier, although maybe not more efficient, ways to beat Eldrazi is nice. It also has the splash effect of your grave hate working as an avenue to victory.


Seth

[GundamGuy]

I don't agree that Canonist is bad against storm, but I do agree that it's become a bit lackluster in general.
I'll test a 2nd Revoker in its place for a while (SB), as it's been awesome lately and also functions against storm!

I'm going to back this down a bit and say I agree with you. Canonist isn't bad against storm, Game one vs. ANT it's pretty much lights out... I didn't express this correctly (I tend to be harsh on things) but what I was really expressing is that given the choice between Canonist and other Hate vs ANT, I'd consider the other hate better.

As for Canonist, the only advantage that I can see something like trinisphere having over Canonist is that, if your opponent wants to remove it and go off on the same turn, trinisphere potentially slows them down 1-2 mana. And, as Seth pointed out, if they are on a TEPS list then they can find creature removal with a wish. On the other hand, Canonist again has legs so it is beating down as it is denying them their game plan. We are also able to fetch it with recruiter. And it provides the protection for our combo that I was talking about before. And yes, I guess it does also have the downside of being white, so you need the proper mana available; but it also costs one less than 3-sphere.

1-2 mana against Storm can easily be the difference between them going off and them having to give you another turn. IMO Thorn Effects (3-Sphere also) are the best vs. Storm, because it slows down every aspect of the game for them, because they can actually build a good hand / pick your hand appart with only one spell a turn, before they deal with Cannonist for the win.

Like I don't actually think Cannonist is bad vs. Storm, but I think it impacts there game plan the least, even more so in games 2 and 3.

Revoker on the other hand deals damage, and turns off Petals / LED, which slow them down and allow you to land more hate.

I've just never liked being mono black or mono red in this game as you just don't have any answers to some cards/strategies and I absolutely hate being completely helpless in a game.

IMO if you are playing it right you aren't completely helpless. I think the feeling of helplessness happens when you don't actually know your role in the match. Or your facing Burn...

A clearer, and more specific and accurate way would be as mentioned earlier a deck with two primary avenues to victory, first a 2 card, six mana, colorless, creature based combo that wins without using the combat zone and a deck with a strong prison type element that works by denying colors as opposed to a true mana denial, taxing strategy. But that is justa lot of shit to type out.

I agree with you. From a language perspective I feel like it's important to be clear that in some matchups you need to Combo ASAP, and in others you just need to Blood Moon.

The Mono Red list with no tutors and less fetch lands( and in turn less shuffle effects) has a more predetermined game plan after it is cut bc the cards are already sequenced. It isn’t just the access to silver that allows the flexibility, it is the constant ability to change the plan as the game progresses. To do so the Rw variants sacrifice mana stability(increased susceptibility to Wasteland and Non basic land hate) and some small card advantage issues(due to the inherent CA issues with the tutor and the occasions they get stuck in hand without the correct colored mana). Tutors much like the cantrip shell allow for greater card selection as the game progresses so that you increase the odds of getting the card you need for any situation. It is the basic idea why a deck like Miracles can run 1-2 copies of Wear/Tear or other answers and still have a reasonable hope of drawing it in a given game/situation where it is needed and relevant. The tutors allow for more choices thus flexibility within the confines of the 60 cards that are included in your deck. You can however make the argument that excluding the E Tutor allows more cards in the deck, which would affect the options in the 60 cards, but the flexibility after the draw actually goes down without the E tutor.

Seth

Mono-Red doesn't have zero-tutors. It has 1-2 fewer tutors... but it's not zero. This deck is called Imperial Painter for a reason...

Also there is a major difference between Tutors like Enlightend Tutor and the Cantrip Shell, one is Card Disadvantage the other is not. Comparing Enlightend Tutor in this deck to Brainstorm and Co. in Miracles is a mistake. The reason the cantrip shell is sooo good, is because it allows for card selectivity without card disadvantage.

Mono-Red trades the odds of drawing a specific card for the benifit of seeing more functional cards over the course of the game.

So when do I think Mono-Red is actually better... when Magus of the Moon is good, when creatures with Toughness < 3 that cause us problems are running around, and when silver bullets are only slightly better then generalized answers.

[sroncor1]

@Gundam Guy- I technically did address the card advantage issue but you are right, not playing E tutor will lead to more cards. Being down one card though decreases in importance as the game progresses. Comparing the loss of a card with the selection offered is difficult, sort of like an apples and oranges situation. there is no direct comparison. Instead we have to look at the increase in power one gets to control their draw for a specific cards and the inherent increase in consistency that comes with it vs the power of raw card advantage without regard for the cards that are actually being draw. Even this is difficult but it is this logic that I try to work through to determine my decision. I used the cantrip shell example as a way in which controlling the cards you get, thus having more options and flexibility provides more options. These options come at a loss of tempo and card parity within the cantrip shell. E tutor allows us to get similar strength in card selection but provides card disadvantage at the same tempo(although at instant speed). I think it is reasonable within this framework to use the similarities to show how the cantrip shell and E tutor are similar in their ability to add overall flexibility to the deck.

When I said tutor I meant E tutor, sorry about that as you are correct Recruiter does need you any dork in the deck and is most certainly a tutor. I do think that the advantages of teh cards you choose to run could easily be run in the Rw list. Other than a white spell, there is no card that is exclusive to either list. Someplace a couple years ago people started to associate specific RED cards to the mono red list which we should not be doing. Yes the Rw list will pick artifacts as answers due to the tutors but that does not preclude it from running the 3 of earthquake effects or other things. I still run 2 Magus of the Moon in my deck and think upping it to 3 is a reasonable play depending on the meta(getting up to 4 would be difficult due to lack of space due to the 2-3 E tutor spots). But to be fair, I do think that it is reasonable to try those cards which have traditionally been played in mono red lists within the Rw shell. I think some of this distinctness was started years ago when Jandax created a different version of mono red. But there is no reason for it to exist anymore, and never should have.

What would the specific red cards be that the mono red list runs that fit within the framework of the meta that would be better? Also what would their counts be within the 60 and 75?

Seth

[Morcrux]

What would the specific red cards be that the mono red list runs that fit within the framework of the meta that would be better?

Bolts, basicly. Rw keep their burn in SB if needed, often siding out petals and tutors in the blue tempo matchups. Thus Rw is growing closer to Mono build post-board in some matchups, roughly speaking. Thus in some metas it might seem that it'll be better to start right from the SB with burn and "slighly more cards" main.

However I've been playing with Mono a lot lately, and I have to admit the variance Rw offers against any matchup is more important than the sligh advantage Mono gives against a handful of the more played decks. Rw really is a lot better generally speaking with their proactive plan of quality before quantity, and upping welder efficiency. So I'm with everything Seth's been saying now, I was a bit too biased of my local meta.

[sroncor1]

I do think that the Rw list can certainly just plug 3-4 removal spells maindeck to adjust to the meta. The question will always be if this is the best choice/answer to a meta and that is tougher, and something that is most likely impossible to answer. But there are certainly 3-4 spots that be dedicated to some sort of burn spell, whichever flavor you choose. I do think that the fast mana should basically never be sided out and that feels like a less good solution in basically every match. There are def cards like Jaya, Revoker, and the like that should be removed first in that match up. The fact mana is critical to the deck and game 2 and 3 against tempo list an early moon becomes even stronger as you have a clear idea what they are playing, which can make committing to that line easier.

My goal with this discussion is not to attack you but to attack the belief that the mono red lists run cards that are exclusive to them. That is not true. Most Rw lists do not run the maindeck burn bc in an open meta there are just better choices when you have redundancy with tutors and an extra color to draw from. What needs to be discussed is the distinction between the two and if there are any advantages in the mono red list to offset the loss of consistency, and selection afforded by the splash( it could be any color really). With respect to the mana, yes the monored list will always have a slightly more stable mana base due to being mono colored. I do think the card advantage issue is over rated though. This is no longer 1996, where card advantage is king. Card advantage does matter, but so do tempo, and card quality. Another factor to think about is you see the same number of cards over a game. So while you are down a resource you an argue that the cards seen(which is the same) is of a higher quality, as any mana after 4-5 becomes redundant, so the actual card losses value as the game goes on.

Seth

[drude1]

I was actually playing 3 copies of magma jet in my list for a long time and loved them. This was in a r/w list and I just wanted some quick creature removal with the benefit of fixing my draws more. If I were playing mono red, this is definitely the main deck burn I would be playing.


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[GundamGuy]

My goal with this discussion is not to attack you but to attack the belief that the mono red lists run cards that are exclusive to them. That is not true. Most Rw lists do not run the maindeck burn bc in an open meta there are just better choices when you have redundancy with tutors and an extra color to draw from. What needs to be discussed is the distinction between the two and if there are any advantages in the mono red list to offset the loss of consistency, and selection afforded by the splash( it could be any color really). With respect to the mana, yes the monored list will always have a slightly more stable mana base due to being mono colored. I do think the card advantage issue is over rated though. This is no longer 1996, where card advantage is king. Card advantage does matter, but so do tempo, and card quality. Another factor to think about is you see the same number of cards over a game. So while you are down a resource you an argue that the cards seen(which is the same) is of a higher quality, as any mana after 4-5 becomes redundant, so the actual card losses value as the game goes on.

Seth

I totally get that. I'm not taking any of this personally. I hope you aren't either.

I don't think RW is better at Tempo either since you are basically adding (W + Skip a Draw Step) to each silver bullet you use Enlightend Tutor to find. Maybe I'm thinking of this wrong, but Tempo decks typically try to win by using there resources more efficently. Also Playing Tutor and having that Silver Bullet countered is abysmal tempo wise, where having your "Silver bullet" equilivant countered is not nearly as bad. (It's still not good, but less bad)

Honestly this might just come down to playstyle differences.

[sroncor1]

@Gundam- No worries. I know I had been noted that people thought my statements were attacking people as opposed to ideas, which is my goal. I will say in my previous post I am sorry that when I said tempo is as important as raw card advantage I did not mean to imply that teh Rw list was better with respect to tempo. Just that the idea of tempo could be more important than card advantage. Pending the type of removal you choose you would def gain lots of tempo that the more traditional Rw lists due to the multiple creatures killed and mana spent to cast them.

I guess the way I think of E Tutor is similar to FoW. The card disadvantage is not an issue when we consider playing it bc the power of just saying no is that strong. I think E tutor's ability to set up your next draw and the inherent power in the card drawn and the very ability to put so many different cards on the top of the deck is easily worth being down a card and one mana. At some point it is a play style and the sacrifices one is willing to commit to. I just don't want people to think that any cards are exclusive to one version vs the other.

The real issue is which cards are most beneficial to the deck and that should not matter as long as the card is red as both versions should probably play it at that point(the caveat to this would be red possibly using inferior answers due to the color pie that white would afford). The issue with this is a fundamental one. Everyone,s goals with the decks are slightly different. we all see different metas with varying skill levels of players in those metas. Some want to run the open series, some want to do well during Thursday night magic and others want to just sling spells on mtgo. And within these, deck constraints obviously would change.

Seth

[Morcrux]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ent-2016-01-18
No bans in legacy. Modern is quite rammed tho, for those who care.

[drude1]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ent-2016-01-18
No bans in legacy. Modern is quite rammed tho, for those who care.

Yeah wow, way to blow out the two combo decks in the format. I'm surprised Goryo's Vengeance did t get the ax as well. Legacy: the only format where you can play a legitimate combo deck.


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[Morcrux]

Yeah wow, way to blow out the two combo decks in the format. I'm surprised Goryo's Vengeance did t get the ax as well. Legacy: the only format where you can play a legitimate combo deck.

Did expect the Bloom ban, but banning twin is outrageous.. it'll swing the format worse than good. Indicates again why legacy is superior, modern has become a rotating format.

[Mapson]

Modern had not become a rotating format. Twin has been around since the start of the format and at one point was high on people's radars for bans. We are getting very off topic though. (Which is fine by me).

[LeoCop 90]

Did anyone consider using Fiery Confluence as a sideboard card? I know 4 mana is a lot of mana, but the versatility of destroying equipments and wrecking random artifact based decks (or killing your opponent) may make it a good alternative to other sweepers.

[jandax]

Has potential but it appears that its upside isn't greater than that which confluence would be replacing. 4 mana vs free plus a red card for Pyrokinesis, 2 mana for 2 dsmage, uptapping with Heretic in play. you cut a hole in your side board to allow FC to take the rolls over. This frees up space to do something else within your side sideboard. I don't think you could just add it to a better effect, these are just first impressions because I don't know exactly what problem it's trying to solve.

[drude1]

It seems like a bad Kolaghans Command to me. I actually really liked k.command when I was playing it. But 4 mana at sorcery speed is pretty bad in legacy for this type of effect.
Also, in my never ending search to find a decent alt. win con against Miracles and decks like 12 post, I have been trying Sword of War and Peace. I really like it so far as it creates a pretty fast clock; it protects a creature against bolt and StP; it's relatively cheap to play and can be recurred with welder if they destroy it; and it has a good splash effect against burn with the life gain. I know Jack was playing Sword of light and shadow for a while, but this just felt like it was hitting the opponent a little harder. Anyone have any experience with this card? Better or worse than batterskull? I started with that but at 5 mana, it seemed really slow.


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[Morcrux]

Also, in my never ending search to find a decent alt. win con against Miracles and decks like 12 post, I have been trying Sword of War and Peace. I really like it so far as it creates a pretty fast clock; it protects a creature against bolt and StP; it's relatively cheap to play and can be recurred with welder if they destroy it; and it has a good splash effect against burn with the life gain. I know Jack was playing Sword of light and shadow for a while, but this just felt like it was hitting the opponent a little harder. Anyone have any experience with this card? Better or worse than batterskull? I started with that but at 5 mana, it seemed really slow.

In my opinion it's better to have a standalone threat instead of relying on a creature to equip and a connection to obtain value. It would seem awesome against burn, but I'm sure it won't be allowed to equip often (game if it is tho)

[drude1]

In my opinion it's better to have a standalone threat instead of relying on a creature to equip and a connection to obtain value. It would seem awesome against burn, but I'm sure it won't be allowed to equip often (game if it is tho)

Yeah, I agree about the standalone nature of the threat but there just isn't anything that fits the bill right now. Koth is good against 12 post but miracles is running so many creatures these days it just isn't good. If the new Chandra cost one less to play I would totally go for that but 6 is just so much. Gonna keep trying the sword for a little while and see how it plays out.


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[Michael Keller]

I've been going no worse than 3-1 at the local event and a Top 8 in a 65-person event in the last two months with this list:


//Main
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter’s Servant
2 Goblin Welder
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Magus of the Moon

4 Grindstone
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Blood Moon
1 Rest in Peace

4 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Swords to Plowshares

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mountain
3 Arid Mesa
3 City of Traitors
3 Lotus Petal
2 Plateau
2 Great Furnace
1 Plains

//Sideboard
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rest in Peace
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rule of Law
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Jester's Cap

[Morcrux]

Dig the 2 revokers main, and swords also seem like a nice touch instead of burn. But why do you play a RiP in main? I'd understand with Helm, but without it's quite useless against most matchups.
How well is Jester's Cap perfoming? Seems like something that could be quite abusive with welder, and almost instawin against combo when cracked.. but the cost is a bit steep

Lastly I'll recommend Eidolon of Rhetoric in place of Rule of Law, since it can be tutored with both Enlightened and Imperial, and have legs!

[Uroborian]

I think that's to hedge versus eldrazi decks. If the combo fails to kill he knows he has to dig for Rip and at least have a mainboard out to those decks.