@Rampart- The issue is that the deck Imperial Painter is really a dog to burn in general. It has always been that way. Burn will wax and wane within a meta and as such sometimes you need to just hope. Years ago it use to be that if you went 2-0 you had a pretty reasonable chance to dodge burn as it is a pretty shitty deck( I still feel this way even when it wins a big event, its just random variance). Now it has become a slightly stronger deck and it does get some decent artifact answers as time goes on. The mono red does not have any real answers to burn in general. Splashing white leads to some bad choices, nothing that really moves the match in your favor to justify the space in my opinion and testing. My advice has been to sort of just take beating, get bent over and see what happens that round. Aggressive mulligan for fast combo, as sometimes they have sorcery speed burn in hand which you can just get there through it. Otherwise enjoy your lunch break and play some casual. I know people hate this stance that you sometimes just have to roll over to some decks but I think that the most practical. If you want to try something I would encourage adding white. Also Trinisphere does some work slowing them down, and is probably the best of the taxing effects against them although again it really doesn't help much. you are still hoping that the removal they have in their hand is sorcery speed. Sorry to be a downer, i hope this helps a bit.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
I would say 3sphere is better than thorn, but thorn is still better than a lot of cards in your main. I think taxing effects in general help in the MU. Taxing effects in general make their fire blasts really bad. Again though, I only tried thorns for a short while and switched to 3sphere when Omnitell was popular, so I haven't had a lot of experience with the card.
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I disagree with this. Not only does white offer some of the best choices to offset, protect, redirect or prevent burn strategies from killing you, it also adds another layer of security to obtain these cards with Enlightened Tutor. The problem is that burn decks are side-stepping spell-based burn and gumming the board up with threats to get damage value. This is where Pyrokinesis shines. Not only are you not taking any damage from creatures on the table, but you're sidestepping cards like Eidelon that gouge your life total whenever a spell <3CMC or less is cast. I think the problem is that people are stockpiling less useful or redundant choices in their sideboards to shore up already favorable match-ups where added redundancy is not always needed.Originally Posted by sroncor1
Spacing out the sideboard with bullets is really the ideal way to attack burn, but these cards need to have synergy with each other. I personally am hating cards like CoP: Red. In my opinion, Warmth is just better side by side with Pyrokinesis. But even then I think there may be better options in the deck. I have been looking at cards like Worship and Pariah in the sideboard side by side with creatures like Burrenton Forge-Tender. Not only is it just good by itself (the Tender) as a stall and protective piece, but in conjunction with Enlightened Tutor and Pariah and or Worship, the game is over. No burn deck based on my research is running cards that force an opponent to "lose life," so these cards are effectively lights out. You can even start tapping your Ancient Tombs for mana with a Worship out and a pro-red creature.
I just think that Painter has so many great match-ups and really few bad match-ups. Burn is absolutely in the farthest reaches of the latter, so for me personally shoring that up as best as possible is the way I'd like the evolution of the sideboard to progress.
To answer the question Rampart actually asked, when I was playing mono-Red 2 years or so ago, I found Thorns to be good in the matchup. They aren't likely going to win you the game on there own, but slowing them down gives you a better chance of winning. But that was also when Red Creatures weren't quite as good as they are, and I don't know how effective they will be today because of that.
I think the best Mono-Red (Which has a few answers... but none are great) answer to burn is Spellskite.
Hollywood, tried your list today and felt pretty good. Went undefeated at a GP side event.
Beat reanimator, elves, grixis delver, and the for fun DnT (ID).
Two revoker was nice. You definitely see them more often. Helped my win against elves for sure.
I knew my opponent was on reanimator. So naturally the t1 EOT ET for RIP is a thing. This speaks to the power of knock out effects like blood moon Ensnaring Bridge and rip.
I have really been having success "playing possum" and getting people to either anti-tempo and slow down to play around the potential combo, or over extend then slam my combo and win. This may sound intuitive, but I have also had a tremendous amount of success doing the opposite - playing to the board, often just overwhelming your opponent.
Sadly, I did not get to jesters cap anyone.
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Glad to see your success with the deck.
Out of curiosity: I would like to know folks' thoughts on integrating the Stuffy Doll-Guilty Conscience combination in this deck. Somewhere in the 75.
It doesn't have any appeal to me. I'd sooner play something like helm of obedience and RIP for another Combo.
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I was wondering about SB options; I'm leaning on 4 Leylines due to large discard meta, so that some slots taking up, and I was wondering how many RiPs do you need to run Helm? 3 or 4? I'm not liking the fact that RiP/Helm is another 4 cards out of my SB but having Multiple combos is seemingly necessary to me ATM. Was wondering any opinions on the topic.
I'm shifting back to Leylines at the moment, too. It just gives you so much of an edge against decks like ANT/TES, Burn and BUG strategies running Liliana and Hymn. Being able to stretch the game out against combo and protect your hand - right now - seems extremely relevant.
I've tried the helm combo in the side before for awhile. I believe the general consensus to why it isn't used is we generally just can't assemble it without either changing the number of tutors and/or running 4 rips and 2 helms. Generally that seemed to take up too much of the sideboard and slowed you down too much in the relevant match ups.
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I know if you went back and looked Seth, one of the main promoters of this deck, frequently will use multiple RIP and 1-2 helms in the sideboard. This is often paired with things like SFM and batterskull as well - A diversified approach and semi transformational.
Back in the Treasure Cruise days, and into the Dig through Time era I ran a 3 RIP main Imperial Painter list at SCG Portland. While I did preform reasonably well with it, i actually never naturally drew any RIP at any point and just won or lost through other means. This serves to demonstrate the lack of card selection sometimes evident with non blue strategies such as Imperial Painter -- Particularly the mono Red version.
Personally, I have never been a fan of Helm, strictly from the perspective of never needing it. There are many plan B's with Painter, often your opponent will be so boarded against plan A that a goblin welder et al will blow their house down.
As for Leyline of sanctity, I have never really liked it either. I would sooner mulligan a OK hand for a better one and win than keep a bad hand because of a leyline. More often than not goblin guide will kill you - especially when all their burn now clears the way.
On a side note I am interested in a line of play that I often do with grindstone and am curious if any fellow painter players ever do it. Mainly with the goal to make goblin welder very very deadly upon resolution.
Early to midgame without goblin welder or sensei's top in play: I will grindstone EOT myself to fill my graveyard with action. Yes this means you might mill the painter or bridge your hoping to draw. But it makes your goblin welder or imperial recruiter for welder deadly. When done correctly this allows you to top cycle, return bridge, or painter quickly rather than having to dig for it. Also it burns counter magic/removal on welder which would otherwise be spent on a painter (lets you hold them hostage if they only have one removal spell).
This is best done with all your welders and 2-3 painters still in the deck and is not advisable if you need to play around a surgical effect/mill a sb card. Finally this gives you additional information for what you still have in your deck.
Hello all,
I'm new with the deck, and as a MUD player I don't see good pre-board answers VS chalice with 1 counter (except Painter + Jaya but it's a bit slow no ?)
Even with a welder on board I don't see how to fill opponent's graveyard with artifacts, so in that case we just wait for forgemaster activation ???
Maybe I'm missing something, I know MUD isn't a deck we see every days ...
Thank you for your answers !!
Versus MUD you go for the combo. Welder is also a hardlock versus them. They can't do anything if they don't play Revoker.Hello all,
I'm new with the deck, and as a MUD player I don't see good pre-board answers VS chalice with 1 counter (except Painter + Jaya but it's a bit slow no ?)
Even with a welder on board I don't see how to fill opponent's graveyard with artifacts, so in that case we just wait for forgemaster activation ???
Maybe I'm missing something, I know MUD isn't a deck we see every days ...
Thank you for your answers !!
Blood moon is also pretty strong versus them.
That's precisely my point, how do you go for the combo if you take 1st turn Game 1 CotV to 1 ?
Turn1 chalice is a beating, but we can manage unless they got fast combo as well. Jaya+Painter is about the only thing we can do unless you play EE main(which I recommend 1 of). It might seem slow, but if you land a moon then they're even slower, and a bridge offers a good lock for a while. Set Revoker on Ugin, and you got all time in the world to fire of a Jaya lock.That's precisely my point, how do you go for the combo if you take 1st turn Game 1 CotV to 1 ?
The sweet thing is that we got recruiters to fetch our way out of their lock, while they only got 1-of untutorable Spine of Ish Sah to deal with our stuff.
Well, if your opponent is playing first and plays a turn 1 chalice, it's tough. Your only answer to get the combo is to get the painter/Jaya combo first. If you get a welder or grindstone down before they play chalice, then you obviously don't have to worry. I don't quite understand your comment about them having artifacts in the yard. If you have welder out, you just play your grindstone, it gets countered and then you just weld it back in. Some people do play main deck EE and I saw someone with vexing Shusher in their main as well. Those are both good answers to chalice as well.That's precisely my point, how do you go for the combo if you take 1st turn Game 1 CotV to 1 ?
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Last edited by drude1; 02-02-2016 at 11:02 AM.
I was searching a way to "weld" their chalice (and to do so we need a target in opponent's graveyard) before playing grindstone but you're absolutely right there's no need to do that !
It's easier for us to manipulate welder to put a Grindstone that's in our yard into play and win from there. There's no need to worry about welding out their Chalice. Unless they somehow have GY hate then yeah we're going to have to wait perhaps if the MuD player messes up and miss times a Kuldotha Trigger allowing us to weld one of the targets of the sacrifice with the chalice presumably in play and hopefully on one. Granted mud rarely splashes a color and on that it splashes blue and luckily not black.
About RIP- It is objectively the strongest graveyard hoser in the game. Some are easier to cast, some are cheaper, some are designed to only affect your opponents yard, and others are brown but in a vaccum it is the strongest. It effectively shuts down and keeps down multiple graveyard centric strategies and overall has been super strong for me. I understand why someone would pick an artifact answer, and there are pros and cons to both. I have been playing a tad more white sources than others(although I think the general trend as seen an uptick closer to my levels in the overall white count). With this in mind I have found it to be the strongest and most consistent grave hate available to me. The down side is that welder loses strength, but I only run 2 and 3 welder builds may found that Tormods Crypt tricks are just stronger. I can honestly say that I have mot tested with a 3 welder build. But with only two welders I have never played without 4 in the board since the card was released. It's ability to allow grinding out eldrazi decks is an added advantage. I typically run 1 Helm as a what the fuck card. It basically costs you one card to have an additional combo that wins without combat. You should be able to squeeze one spot in the board and the overall costs are so low with great upside. Having redundant and variable combo pieces will open up additional lines of play in the respective matches and help make the opponents hate cards less strong. This configuration does not slow you down Bc the decks you bring it in against are fairly slow in general so a 5-7 turn combo is doable in those match ups. Especially if RiP acts Ina fundamental way to delay their game plan.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
Yes. Chalice on 1 before we get a chance is shitty. However blood moon is just as good to fire back at them. Chalice from merfolk is honestly worse.That's precisely my point, how do you go for the combo if you take 1st turn Game 1 CotV to 1 ?
This is where jaya shines, largely because the chalice hides her from removal.
I have won many many games this way. Only blowing up the chalice once you have assembled a strong hand of Protection.
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