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Thread: [Deck] Imperial Painter

  1. #5041

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    I'm personally not a fan of Copter, but if it works for you - by all means. It's a good card that has its merits, but there are also alternatives to playing Copter that make Light up the Stage a better option.

    Honestly, I think Stage is just better in the mono red version of Painter. If you have the ability to play Lightning Bolt and interact with opponents on a more aggressive axis like the older versions of Painter used to, I can see the merits of playing a set of these. I tried them in Shortcake, but I just couldn't find the space to run them anymore. (I still think that the card is incredibly broken.)
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  2. #5042

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    I'm personally not a fan of Copter, but if it works for you - by all means. It's a good card that has its merits, but there are also alternatives to playing Copter that make Light up the Stage a better option.

    Honestly, I think Stage is just better in the mono red version of Painter. If you have the ability to play Lightning Bolt and interact with opponents on a more aggressive axis like the older versions of Painter used to, I can see the merits of playing a set of these. I tried them in Shortcake, but I just couldn't find the space to run them anymore. (I still think that the card is incredibly broken.)
    I wouldn't go as far as to say that stage is 'broken', but it certainly feels that way when you can cast it for R.

    I think you're right though; in mono red, i'd go with 3-4 fiery confluence, 4 lightning bolt and even 4 bomat courier just to get the weenie beats in, enable spectacle, and steal a win before my opponents can stabilise. With that sort of build, even if my opponent's sitting on say 8 life, it's quite possible to whittle it down to 0 before you know it.

    Last night, i was on shortcake, and i think i realise there and then that especially against controlly/grindy decks, copter is really horrendous. I'd rather straight off hard-cast stage for 3 than have a copter in play not doing anything.

  3. #5043

  4. #5044

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Sir, you are a madman! haha! I've never seen Ring of Ma'ruf played. like ever. I had to read it multiple times just to see what it actually did. For some reason, i expected it to be an ante card even. I must say though, is that a 5-cast, and then 5 to activate? it seems overcosted for what it does, especially since karn does the same thing?

    also, I'm liking the gorilla shaman thing (i assume they're for lattice). If I were you, i'd strongly consider something like sandstone oracle for card advantage on the wish board. and/or something like grim monolith main for mana ramping. If you're planning to go all-in on the lattice strategy, i might try to convince you to go 2 shamans and 1 heretic. Some permanents might end up having high enough CMCs that make the shaman un-usable (I'm thinking stuff that's cheated into play mostly. think anglers and stuff).

    Also, what's the slash panther for? is it for killing opposing PWs? I look forward to hearing what your thoughts are; but I'm assuming that you think karn is the amazings.
    Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
    EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer

  5. #5045

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by schweinefettmann View Post
    Sir, you are a madman! haha! I've never seen Ring of Ma'ruf played. like ever. I had to read it multiple times just to see what it actually did. For some reason, i expected it to be an ante card even. I must say though, is that a 5-cast, and then 5 to activate? it seems overcosted for what it does, especially since karn does the same thing?
    You're running Faithless Looting and four Goblin Welder. This is to augment Karn in the event he is shut down by Needle, etc. With seven Sol lands, five mana is rather easy to get to in the event you really need it. And when push comes to shove, it becomes a 5/5 with Karn. This is effectively a Wish board for Painter, and since Karn is there as a four-of, having something extremely unique like Ring is perfectly fine to augment that strategy as a singleton to grab something you need in a pinch - especially since the architecture of the sideboard is designed to shop for whatever you need when you need it.

    also, I'm liking the gorilla shaman thing (i assume they're for lattice). If I were you, i'd strongly consider something like sandstone oracle for card advantage on the wish board. and/or something like grim monolith main for mana ramping. If you're planning to go all-in on the lattice strategy, i might try to convince you to go 2 shamans and 1 heretic. Some permanents might end up having high enough CMCs that make the shaman un-usable (I'm thinking stuff that's cheated into play mostly. think anglers and stuff).
    Liquimetal Coating is also there for Shaman to machine-gun lands (in addition to enable Welder), as is Lattice to shut them down. Additionally, cards like Gambit allow Chalice on one (which will become less and less a thing I think with the new EE land), and smashing those decks by blowing up Chrome Mox, etc. is very enticing.

    Also, what's the slash panther for? is it for killing opposing PWs? I look forward to hearing what your thoughts are; but I'm assuming that you think karn is the amazings.
    Panther is there for a quick source of fast artifact damage when it's crunch time and you need something to finish the game immediately, or a Planeswalker. I do think the deck could use one equipment to turn 1/1s into legitimate threats. This version of Painter attacks the mana base very, very aggressively.

    Keep in mind that playing Gorilla Shaman also adds another dynamic to the deck: it makes Blood Moon a sure-fire win condition augmenting that plan by destroying Mox Diamonds and the like. It also punishes combo decks misplaying their artifact sources where Shaman can blow up LED, or destroy cards like Needle on Grindstone.
    Last edited by Michael Keller; 04-15-2019 at 05:40 PM.
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  6. #5046
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    I think Wurm coil engine is likely the best beater for us to find with Karn if that is what we are looking for. I have debated some other monsters like Inkwell and Spinx, but they seem to gimmicky in the deck and make relying on Welder an issue I would like to avoid.

    Batterskull and things like SoFI and SoLS may also warrant testing, especially if Copter remains a 3-4 of in the deck.

    I think the Needle on Karn is something to consider. Needle is underplayed relative to Revoker in general. We do need to consider it but the beauty of the deck is that if they needle Karn our combo and Copter and Welder are free to run all over them. So blind calling Karn is likely good for us. and if they call a resolved Karn we at least had one activation for value which is also good.

    I have already started testing the Karn list after talking with Jack. I am looking forward to real games on MTGO soon. I will look to have an updated list sometime early in May I assume. Will likely need a couple days testing online before I post anything just to help with refinement.

    Seth
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  7. #5047

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by sroncor1 View Post
    I think Wurm coil engine is likely the best beater for us to find with Karn if that is what we are looking for. I have debated some other monsters like Inkwell and Spinx, but they seem to gimmicky in the deck and make relying on Welder an issue I would like to avoid.
    Hey Seth, Wurmcoil is a good one. My reasoning for Panther is that, if you're pigeonholed on four or five mana and need to deal damage quickly or to finish the game, that can be a fast source of damage in a hurry. It can also kill Planeswalkers in a pinch. If you're getting to six mana, Mycosynth Lattice is really the best you can do, because it just wins you the game immediately. But Panther is there effectively as an artifact "burn" spell to speed the game up.

    Batterskull and things like SoFI and SoLS may also warrant testing, especially if Copter remains a 3-4 of in the deck.
    I'm not a fan of Batterskull too much. SoLS is good, but SoFI can conflict with Painter on blue.

    I think the Needle on Karn is something to consider. Needle is underplayed relative to Revoker in general. We do need to consider it but the beauty of the deck is that if they needle Karn our combo and Copter and Welder are free to run all over them. So blind calling Karn is likely good for us. and if they call a resolved Karn we at least had one activation for value which is also good.
    I think Needle or Revoker on Grindstone is the more realistic choice though.
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  8. #5048
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Chalice on one (which will become less and less a thing I think with the new EE land)
    The new EE land starts on 1 counter and only goes up. Can't hit Chalice with it.
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  9. #5049
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    I don't think you need the ring. If they needle Karn you have 2 Gorilla Shaman, 4 Welder (if they have artifacts in the yard), and 5 blasts (with painter obviously) to kill needle. I personally also think splitting 3/1 or 2/2 on Karns is a good idea. It's pretty sick that new Karn can fetch cards that old Karn exiled too.
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  10. #5050
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    @ Hollywood- You are absolutely correct about the value of Slash Panther. But I can def see the value of its ability to kill a Planeswalker is really strong. And that was something I had not considered. It def will require testing as I like the increased reach you are going for. My thought about the Wurmcoil was that in a vacuum its likely the best creature we can tutor up do to its various abilities, removal avoidance and positive interactions with Welder. It is probably correct that we have a couple dudes in the side to get with Karn.

    I totally agree with you that the needle on Karn is basically a great play for us and it unlikely from good players unless Karn is already running away with the game. Not that you said this, but I wanted it in the thread that if Karn gets hit with Needle that is actually a good thing for the deck in general.

    The idea of equipment is totally untested to be honest. Batterskull is nice bc it also provides body. While SoFI is a nonbo with Painter, it does have some insane upside with Copter. But to be fair all the swords have potential merit and may warrant testing. In your shell I would imagine that even Jitte has so benefit.

    My main goal is that we ensure that we are expanding the potential cards we consider in this setting as the new Karn is tried. Clearly Karn into Lattice is one of the strongest lines for us, but I want to sort of leave no stone unturned so to speak.

    I need to test the Mox Monkey as its one of my favorite cards. Karn might just make it so he becomes the artifact answer of choice also as he can be immediate and is a good value for mana sunk making him better than Heretic while having desired repeatability that Vandal always lacked.

    @Megadeus- I think new Karn just straight up outclasses the old Karn and the way that the wish board can be abused I think sort of forces the play. The main driver for old Karn was the general value engine it was and his ability to constantly fuel Copter for improved card selection and advantage as the game wore on. New Karn is less a value engine, and more an immediate threat to just put the game away, but to do that we need to sort of reimagine parts of the deck. In doing so I think you really need him as a 3 of to utilize the constants on the sideboard, and its hard to see the deck needing or properly using a 4 drop that also isnt a tutor with his upside.

    Seth
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  11. #5051

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    So I proxied mr keller's above-mentioned decklist and gave it a quick whirl. It's pretty good and surprisingly quick on some hands.

    I think the 4 karn will be the new sort-of lynchpin to the new imperial painter build. Previously, the stompy shell has been good, but with blood moon's value going down recently (i've at least seen more basics in my local), i like the idea of being able to attack mana in a different way.

    I also like that the 4 karn pushes out combo pieces to being the equivalent of 7 MD (1 of each on the wish board), but i suspect that having 4 painters main is probably still better. my reasoning being that we have recruiters main, and we probably don't want to be over-reliant on the karn (who's better suited to just lock the opponent out).

    I'm not thoroughly convinced i like the blast zone land. sure it's a non-counterable, nearly non-interative explosives, but not being able to hit things that are relevant (i.e. opposing chalices) seems pretty bad. trying to land the blood moon first to then land the blast zone to then somehow remove the blood moon and then nuking their chalices doesn't seem good. I'm also doubting that we'd have the luxury of running a thespian's stage.

    Just to make sure I'm playing the deck right (or at least along the plans of what you'd built it as), the plan is to lock out the opponent, overwhelm their removal/pieces of interactions, then at the same time cobble together the combo. Sort of like the original imperial painter, but now with more mana-hate and mainboard artifact hate+manipulation, and less reliant on the blasts.

    On the subject of equipment, i don't think any of them are typically going to be any better than a wurmcoil engine. gains us life, is naturally hard to kill, and isn't reliant on another creature to make it work.

    I've been trying to figure out if there are any other cards that could work as PW-hate; fleetwheel cruiser does 5 damage at the same cost (one-hit only though), and Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer can be used as a one-shot if you have either wurmcoil token and a bunch of myr from the battlesphere. I'm guessing it's a win-more though.
    On a more serious note though; i've been adding anger into my Rx painter builds. 2-3 anger basically makes all the welders an instant threat, the battlespheres can get warped in with all the tokens and threaten some non-insignificant amount of damage (seemingly out of nowhere). I get that heavy damage isn't what the deck is trying to do, but hasty welders are amazing.
    Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
    EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer

  12. #5052

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    @Seth: I hear you. I just think this version now that Karn is a thing just skyrockets the deck's viability. The red version has always attacked mana aggressively with Blasts and Blood Moon; I see it differently now with Karn and Lattice, but adding Welder as a four-of with Coating and Shaman to augment Karn and win by attrition.

    It's also superior against Turbo Depths, for what it's worth. Gorilla Shaman makes short work of Mox Diamond and gives the deck an added dynamic of attacking resources or combo pieces (with Coating). I just think that it could use an equipment main to turn the 1/1s into serious beaters, just like the older iterations did with SoLaS.
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  13. #5053
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    @Seth: I hear you. I just think this version now that Karn is a thing just skyrockets the deck's viability. The red version has always attacked mana aggressively with Blasts and Blood Moon; I see it differently now with Karn and Lattice, but adding Welder as a four-of with Coating and Shaman to augment Karn and win by attrition.

    It's also superior against Turbo Depths, for what it's worth. Gorilla Shaman makes short work of Mox Diamond and gives the deck an added dynamic of attacking resources or combo pieces (with Coating). I just think that it could use an equipment main to turn the 1/1s into serious beaters, just like the older iterations did with SoLaS.
    So are you on more Liquidmetal Coating now? The 1-of in the main of your last list obviously wouldn't cut it...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
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    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
    Referring to the art on Stasis:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder View Post
    Well, uh...the mime, you see, is....um...

    God, is that furry bondage?

  14. #5054

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirrislegend View Post
    So are you on more Liquidmetal Coating now? The 1-of in the main of your last list obviously wouldn't cut it...
    Yeah I haven't posted a new list, but I've been tinkering with two in the main in another list and looking at three. It's actually more gross with Karn than I thought it was. I also misread the Explosion Zone text; it does indeed come into play with a counter on it. I still think it's powerful enough to consider as a one-of, maybe two, just because of its straight-power level.

    But Coating with Shaman and Welder is just crazy. Also, if you can hit the play on the roll, Gorilla Shaman is just a blowout against decks wanting to slam Chalice on one.
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