@flower_power: when I say T1 moon win, it often means that my opponent continues to play and drops lands and discards down to 7 when necessary. They just dont activelt participate or they play until they see a combo piece so they know exactly what i am on. A lot of times if I see nothing but non-basics and no red I assume it's a fair strategy and side in shocks and the magus.
@8bit9mm: yeah, that's reasonable I guess. Certainly makes sense to name non-blue on your painter. It's a very awkward MU overall. I agree that the deck is ultra fun to play. It's the only deck that I've been able to play consistently for a few years. I've bought and sold forces, show and tells, tezzerets, and Grove of the burnwillows more times than I care to recall. Good luck with the deck.
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A few more questions since I'm looking to buy into this more combo oriented version of the deck (the general, slightly modified main of a list I saw a few pages back, possibly yours, not sure, with Jack Kitchen's "standard" SB (lightning bolts over shocks, etc))
1) is there any MUs other than fair decks that you bring in the burn cards? If so what are they?
2) what MUs do the Chandra(s) come in?
3) what is a general philosophy for looking at stuff to board out? I always have this problem with "all-in" combo decks like this because I see everything as detrimental to the deck's game plan.
Here is the exact 75 I'm looking at running (might replace 1x elemental with a Sphere of Law, but not sure yet)
[DECK]
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Blood Moon
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x City of Traitors
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Goblin Welder
1x Great Furnace
4x Grindstone
4x Imperial Recruiter
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
3x Lotus Petal
1x Magus of the Moon
4x Mountain
4x Painter's Servant
2x Plateau
4x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Wooded Foothills
Sideboard
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Containment Priest
1x Duergar Hedge-Mage
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Nahiri, the Harbinger
2x Pyroclasm
2x Sulfur Elemental
1x Tormod's Crypt
Yeah, I sold the majority of Mono-Red Sneak Attack and the remaining pieces of Mud and Eldrazi that I had sitting around to put the deck together and I couldn't be happier.
@Flower_Power: I generally board in Chandra(s) against decks that are slower and more resilient against Blood Moon (i.e. Miracles, Nic Fit, etc.). drude1 may have some different insight on that, but that's generally my game-plan. Also, I've cut one Chandra (of 2) for a Sphere of Law after getting reamed by Burn at the GP.
Here is my current List:
Land (19)
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Arid Mesa
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x City of Traitors
1x Great Furnace
4x Mountain
2x Plateau
2x Wooded Foothills
Instant (9)
3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
Enchantment (4)
4x Blood Moon
Creature (15)
3x Goblin Welder
4x Imperial Recruiter
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4x Painter's Servant
1x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Simian Spirit Guide
Artifact (13)
2x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Grindstone
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
3x Lotus Petal
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Fiery Confluence
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Manic Vandal
1x Nahiri, the Harbinger
1x Rest in Peace
1x Spellskite
1x Sphere of Law
1x Sudden Shock
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Trinisphere
I swapped a MD Magus for the Revoker after talking to drude1. It's nice to have the flexibility over a 5th (unnecessary) moon effect.
Not drude but hopefully I can answer some of these questions.
I would board in burn in the infect, elves and painter matchup. Pretty much any matchup where your opponent is playing creatures. If you're playing bolt or sudden shock I also would board them in the miracles matchup.
Any matchup where you are going to have a hard time winning through the combo and need an alternative win condition. I'd bring her in against decks that play chalice, d&t, nicfit and miracles. I think you can make a case for her in matchups like elves and infect as an additional burn spell but i'm not quite sure how good of a strategy that is.
In general you're almost never going to be boarding out combo pieces. Against decks where you can afford to slow down a little you can board out fast mana, tops, e-tutor as the games will go longer. Against combo decks you can board out some of slower pieces i.e. tops, welders, bridges, etc. As far as boarding out blood moon the only matchups where I board out all 4 are burn, show and tell decks and TES. Other than that i'm keeping in some # to migrate some of the nonbasics that these decks play.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by CptHaddock; 01-11-2017 at 03:22 PM. Reason: spelling, spelling, spelling!
I feel the challenge with painter right now, as it always has been, is deck recognition.
Knowing your enemy is important for many decks, however I feel this is highlighted for a deck like painter.
We have many cards or combos which are often the game upon resolution. Blood moon, magus of the moon, ensnaring bridge, Jaya Ballard, and of course are combo all come to mind.
I feel deck recognition holds back painter, particularly in a big tournament where your opponent is typically unknown. This adds an additional level of complexity to the match up lottery which often propels many people to top 8. You may have got the match up you wanted but you kept a hand or failed to identify early what your plan should be. Often painter will pick up a game 1 loss in this situation.
While not overly helpful I feel this observation is made more real by the tick up in sneak and show. Wherein the match up is much more even game 1 if you know what your opponent is on.
I would say storm is a deck which is on the other end of this spectrum.
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I would agree with CptHaddock in general. For your burn, you definitely want it against any deck running deathrite, delver, stoneforge, and any tribal decks. It's obvious really good against D & T as well and, as was mentioned, bolts and sudden shocks are good against Miracles. The reason I prefer sudden shock is because it's not counterable (against deathrite in particular) and they can't respond (elves, mother of runes, all Miracles creatures, especially with karakas).
Chandras/other planewalkers come in if it is a slower MU and my opponent has a difficult time dealing with Planeswalkers (Miracles) or as an alt win con if the grindstone combo is sub-optimal (12 post, sneak and show, ? 1 in eldrazi or other Chalice decks). I have to admit I really prefer Chandra over Nahiri these days. Nahiri is great in general and lets you get around chalices. She also ultimates very fast. The problem is that with the rise of sneak and show again, she can't do anything to win you the game. Chandra has her own win con built in. Against Miracles and Eldrazi, I would still prefer Nahiri. But against the entire field I think Chandra has the leg up. Having said that, I did watch another Painter player absolutely wreck Miracles with a Koth last weekend. Good times.
As for sideboarding, some general rules I follow are that some number of etutors get boarded out against permission decks (Miracles, delver). Some fast mana comes out when the MU is slower (Miracles, 12 post) or when some blood moons come out (sneak and show, again miracles). I rarely take out welders these days, although definitely did more when I was still playing rest in peace. I will shave grindstones against Emrakul decks as I am rarely winning with the combo in those MUs. Jaya and revoker come out a lot depending on their utility in the MU and whether I think they will stick around.
@mcbain: I totally agree. The lines that this deck follows depend significantly on what your opponent is playing, probably more than any other deck I've ever played. For example (and this is probably a little over-simplified), if I know my opponent is on storm, then the first card I am usually trying to find is either Canonist or revoker (depending on which is in my main) unless I think I can combo out before them. If I know I am playing a BUG deck of any kind, then blood moon takes priority. BUG decks have an incredible number of answers in there deck but that doesn't mean anything if they can't play them. If I think there are emrakuls in their deck then I am abandoning the combo and ensnaring bridge/Jaya or planeswalkers are important. You really have to know how to play this deck based on the cards across the table. And it is extremely important to be able to recognize your opponent as quickly as possible so as to not squander resources. This sentiment goes back to people who quickly get frustrated with the deck. I think the deck requires a lot of patience. You are definitely going to lose your fair share of matches when you start out. This deck rewards tight play and punishes sloppy play significantly.
How many Chandra do you guys prefer? I am running 4 maindeck after the lists on mtgtop8 as I enjoy the synergy with divining top. What are some arguments for less or sideboarding her?
Now Playing:
Dark depths
Reanimator
MUD
Disclaimer: The above person does not claim to have knowledge pertaining to the following subject: anything. Thus, said person may not be held liable for any mishaps/explosions that his advice incurs.
I'm playing 2 in the board of Shortcake, i'm not sure if that is the right number but it feels about right. I don't play her main because I think that our combo is usually at it's strongest game 1 and try to jam it ASAP. Postboard i'm more prepared to go slower and have alternative win conditions as needed. The meta where I play isn't usually too hostile (minus a few burn players...) to painter either so that helps.
edit:
Realized that my post implied that I don't think Chandra is good at all in the main, that is certainly not the case. I think it's perfectly reasonable to maindeck Chandra, she's ramp, removal, a win condition and a source of CA which is insanity for a red card.
Last edited by CptHaddock; 01-12-2017 at 01:53 PM.
I feel like 2 is the most that Shortcake can really support given the tighter space in the list.
Recently I've cut my 2nd SB Chandra for a Sphere of Law to try to win the Burn matchup, that may change though.
I could definitely see a full 4 in Mono-Red, but I'd split that between MD and SB.
I play two in the main right now. I don't want to pay two many expensive cards main, but I tend to run into a lot off grindy decks/miracles and she's an all star in those matchups.
I have played two main since she came out. Very good.
I don't play her or more of her in board. Ajani is way better there.
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I think I am switching to 2 main as well. Chandra is just universally better in most MUs than Jaya. That being the case, I couldn't imagine playing less than 2 bridges main for the Sneak and Show MU and just to protect her in general.
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Lately I have been piloting a mono red version with 2 Chandras and 2 bridges main and 1 Of each in the board. I currently went down to two confluence in the board. I'm playing 20 lands plus 4 ssg but my hand can sometimes be hard to empty to a bridge. Should I make the switch to pyroclasm? Lately I've been getting wrecked by grixis delver and ur delver. How are people boarding for those matchups? I think I may be playing too carefully (worried about dazed and spell pierces). Would you bring out magus in the grixis match up since he dies to bolt?
My miracles match up has been tilted slightly in my favor. I usually win that match up through damage and just have the threat of comboing. I typically hold up blasts for counter balance, jace, and clique. Usually a counter war will get started over counter balance if they have a top out. Now that there resources are depleted I can play Chandra and start ticking away. Chandra is my main plan in that match up I don't even care about wear tear that much. Typically i board in my 4th sudden shock, 8th blast, 3rd Chandra, 2 surgicals, 2 confluence, 1 bridge
I have been off revoker and magus for a while now, although with the shifted meta back to sneak and show and BUG delver it is likely the better meta call to play those over a Chandra in the main.
I would still not cut Jaya.
Also, there is a pretty pimp painter deck posted in the pump thread right now.
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Yeah, I would probably move Jaya and revoker to the board. I like them both but they are both so situational and easy to deal with.
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If any of you are looking for masterpieces. Tomas vanek on the fb high end group is selling them for $50, best prove I've seen so far. After me he still has 10 left last I looked
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