Officially up in New and Developmental.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
Kinda neat that it worked out that this post started the 250th page of this thread. The new thread, for anyone that's interested but a little lazy.
In any case, here's to 250 more pages of Imperial Painter and Shortcake too!—I hope that splitting the threads leads to more focused development of both decks. I think Blood Moon is in a great place right now, so both versions have legs. I've experienced more success with Imperial Painter lately because of the more consistent mana and greater consistency when it comes to Blood Mooning people (more fast mana and more moons). You trade that for access to Enlightened Tutor which gives you more virtual copies of Grindstone. Chandra acts like a combination of Grim Lavamancer and Smuggler's Copter, with removal and card selection in one card. Another aspect in which white shines is access to sideboard cards for tricky matchups like burn and storm.
I wonder if either deck wants the new Karn, or if there's space for a more artifact focused build that can capitalise on his -2? Being castable off two Sol Lands makes him interesting at the very least, easing the red mana requirement.
So I'll admit I'm still pretty new to this deck, but what are people's thoughts on Inventor's Fair? It's not great for a two color deck, but the incidental life gain might be nice vs. burn and the tutor option I'm the late game vs. grindy decks
One argument against Inventor's Fair is that lands that don't produce coloured mana come at a high cost, even in the mono-coloured version (which is actually what this thread will probably focus on now that there is a separate thread for Shortcake, the RW variant). You already run 7-8 sol lands, and only 19 lands in total, and you have some double red spells as well as generally fairly intense mana requirements.
Also, although this is nominally an artifact deck, you don't run so many artifacts that turning on metalcraft is trivial (which is why the deck doesn't run Mox Opal). In part because of Ancient Tomb, gaining one life per turn is probably not enough to make a significant difference against decks. While the tutor ability is powerful, it's also pretty slow.
Still, I don't think it's unreasonable to test—give it a try and see how it goes!
A typical situation in many games: You have landed Blood Moon and cast a Recruiter, aiming to close the game fast before opponent finds answers. What reasonable (recruitable) single creature closes the game quickest against an empty board? Rabblemaster? Looking for pure raw power here, nothing fancy nor versatile.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Assuming that your opponent has no creatures in play and is at 19 or 20 life, Recruiter + Rabblemaster closes the game in 4 turns (not including the turn you cast Imperial Recruiter). Let's say you mooned on turn 1, recruited on 2, and then played Rabblemaster on 3. You'll attack for 2 on turn 3, 7 on turn 4, 9 on turn 5 and then win on turn 6.
(Just as a comparison: If, instead, you recruit for Painter, your chances of drawing a Grindstone by turn 6 on the play are around 60%, with a 75% chance of drawing Blasts to keep your opponent locked/stop them from having an answer.)
I think Rabblemaster is probably the fastest clock on a red creature that you can recruit for. I'm just wondering which situations and against which decks and answers you are hedging by playing it? Do you lose many games in which you get a Blood Moon down against a deck that can do nothing while there is one in play?
Other fast clocks (most of them are nevertheless pretty bad):
Hanweir Garrison
Siege-gang commander
lightning runner
scrapper champion
silverblade paladin
satyr nix-smith
(angel of invention)
(Shapeshifter)
(Tilonalli's Summoner)
(solemn recruit)
(geist honored monk)
When Moon wins the game you obviously don't need a dedicated beater. I'm referring to situations where it is just slowing down the game while your opponent has reasonable outs like basics or mana rocks to turn the tables. To me this is regular enough to sometimes wonder whether a decent red clock has been recently printed or dug from the archives. I've been lately even thinking of Endless One. Rabblemaster has the downside of shitting on Welder but that just might not be relevant at all.
EDIT: Combat Celebrant is a new one. Quite fast and interesting but very fragile.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Of those, I think Hanweir Garrison is a reasonable option. The clock is pretty much the same as Rabblemaster (5+7+9), but the card itself is a bit more robust. Satyr Nyx-Smith is also the same clock (3+6+9), but requires mana every turn. It's a cool card though, I've never seen it!
Combat Celebrant is not recruitable.
Rabblemaster has the fastest clock (1+6+8+10) against a completely empty board, kind of weak to DRS blocking tokens every turn. Positive and negative synergy with welder (more damge, but you have to tap welder). Dies easier than garrison. Being forced to attack can be a liability if you have to attack into anything with lifelink.
Hanweir Garrison still has a fast clock (0+4+6+8+10), is a faster clock if they have a creature to chump block a token. Doesn't die as easily. (Thalia, Hexmage, PFire)
I'm a big fan a garrison and used it to pretty good success when I was playing dragon stompy. Admittedly a lot of that success was being able to sweep an opponents board with Kozilek's Return and then attacking with garrison.
If you want something extra spicey, Thunder-Thrash Elder has a kind of synergy with recruiter, especially if you chain a bunch of recruiters together.
Some additional cards that might be worth considering are Walking Ballista or Pia and Kiran Nalaar, neither of which have the raw power, but do offer some additional versatility.
I scrubbed out of the main event at GP: Seattle badly with Mono-Red Prison, so I decided to give this deck a go for some side events - and if I felt good about it, the Legacy PTQ on Sunday. I brought it just in case, which wasn't difficult considering the decks share a ton of cards. I threw this deck together the day before, and started out playing it in one of the double-up side events.
3 Goblin Welder
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Painter's Servant
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Lotus Petal
4 Grindstone
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Blood Moon
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
11 Mountain
Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sudden Demise
2 Abrade
2 Sudden Shock
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Fiery Confluence
I hadn't played this deck in a while and was limited by what cards I brought with me, so I highly doubt it is even close to optimized. One does not simply buy random cards from vendors when your deck is required to be entirely Japanese/Korean. What's the point of playing otherwise? My notes (when available) were garbage so this is entirely by somewhat alcohol-addled memory. Apologies to any opponents if I get things wrong. Sideboarding being correct is definitely iffy.
Double-Up Event
Round 1 - Death and Taxes
The first game was long and grindy. I eventually get multiple Ensnaring Bridges in play which stops active Umezawa's Jitte from murdering me. I forgot about how Painter > blue interacts with Sword of Fire and Ice which makes this game more difficult than it should have been. I eventually Blast a Jitte and then start welding things in and out. Welder eventually kills his Revoker (originally, and impossibly, protected by SOFI) on Grindstone and that's the game. I'm guessing I boarded like this:
-4 Blood Moon
-1 Magus of the Moon/Goblin Welder
-2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
+2 Sudden Demise
+2 Abrade
+2 Sudden Shock
+1 Fiery Confluence
Game two my opponent manages to resolve both Pithing Needle and Revoker on Grindstone while I play Grindstone and then Recruiter > Painter. I have a blast for Swords to Plowshares on Painter. Sudden Demise > blue kills Revoker, Stoneforge Mystic, and my unfortunate Recruiter. My opponent plays Jitte and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben but I have end step Abrade for Needle, untap combo kill.
Round 2 - Storm
I keep a durdly hand suitable for midrange matchups and get turn 3 killed after my opponent casts 3 Brainstorms to my zero blasts drawn. I board like this:
-4 Ensnaring Bridge
-2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-2 Goblin Welder
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Sudden Demise
+4 Thorn of Amethyst
Figuring that my opponent would fetch basics, I mull away a hand with turn 2 Moon looking for actual hate. I don't find any and keep either a 5 or 6 with blast and I think part of the combo. This turns out to be a hell of a mistake as my opponent does not play around Moon at all (and draws 3 Brainstorm in 3 turns again). I blast one of these but die on turn 3 anyways after drawing lands. I about tilt off the face of the planet but remember to keep Moon hands against Storm later.
Round 3 - Food Chain
I don't figure out what my opponent is on until quite a ways into game one, where I luckily have the Blast for his Manipulate Fate. I get there with the combo but don't remember the details other than the game was long and interactive. My opponent and I discuss the awesomeness of Food Chain, which I used to play once upon a time. I honestly have no idea what I boarded out but I know Abrade came in. Maybe Sudden Demise too, but I'm not sure. Game two is even longer, involving me being slow-milled by Altar of the Brood while my opponent can't find Food Chain but plays a bunch of dudes. I nearly die to Deathrite Shaman before I remember I have Pia and Kiran in play (no thopters though). I shoot an extra Grindstone or something at it, go to 2, and immediately play Lavamancer. That guy turns out to be my savior as my opponent draws 2 or 3 more Deathrites with me at 2, but no answer to Lavamancer. I eventually draw a removal spell for his Needle on Grindstone and get there.
Good enough for 2-1 and 200 prize tickets. Yay standard packs. The deck felt very powerful (I expected to lose round 2 as the Storm matchup is garbage without the power of better lucky than good). I played High Tide at another side event and that deck was predictably not as good as I'd like. I was still tilted about the main event, so no Stompy. Painter it was for the PTQ. There ended up being around 360 players (368 maybe?) which was good for six rounds of Swiss.
Round 1 - Storm (!)
I once again keep a good hand against fair decks and my opponent does things to me that are illegal in most states and the District of Columbia. I remark to a nearby friend that I never play against Storm when I'm on decks that beat Storm (which is basically everything else I play) and apparently Painter attracts the matchup like a magnet. A sad, salty, tilted magnet. I board the same as last storm match:
-4 Ensnaring Bridge
-2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-2 Goblin Welder
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Sudden Demise
+4 Thorn of Amethyst
My game two hand has turn one Blood Moon. My opponent's opener has no basics. Oh baby, we are cooking with gasoline. I blast a skill-testing cantrip cast off of Lotus Petal and then get there with some kind of shitty beats. Game three I keep a turn 3 kill with a Blast, Monkey, and a Surgical and believe in the heart of the cards. My opponent cantrips a couple times and Duress takes my Blast. I play out Grindstone and Painter and pass. My opponent cantrips again, plays a bunch of spells, and Past in Flames with no mana floating. I tunnel vision/savagely misplay and Surgical Dark Ritual instead of Gitaxian Probe or Lion's Eye Diamond. Luckily, the difference between these two plays is "no outs" vs. "1% change to win" or so and I survive. I will note that my Storm opponent's deck was beautifully foiled out. I'm not a foil guy but I appreciate a man who knows how to pimp and play his pimp well at that.
Round 2 - Miracles
Game one goes on for a while. Eventually I resolve the combo, and my opponent goes for it as he has double STP. I have Blast + in response Grindstone activation and we go to game two. I board something like this:
-4 Blood Moon
-4 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Abrade
+1 Fiery Confluence
+4 Thorn of Amethyst
Game two is a long one. My opponent miracles Terminus to kill my early stuff then resolves Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I topdeck Fiery Confluence and kill Jace + Snapcaster Mage with fire. My first Grindstone gets exiled by Council's Judgment. I start Grindstoning my opponent about 4-5 turns later than I should have, although I have a single activation which hits 6-8 business spells resulting in him drawing a lot of lands. I also draw a lot of lands and play some derpy beats. I resolve a Thorn, which was not all that great considering the number of lands in play on both sides of the table. This was the only copy of Thorn of Amethyst I drew all weekend. Magus of the Moon gets in there and beats my opponent down to seven life or so while I draw Painter and sandbag it for a turn or two. My opponent attempts to kill Magus with Blue Elemental Blast, which I Blast. He hard-casts Force of Will on the Blast and mostly taps out. I untap and play Painter and Grind for the win.
Round 3 - MUD
Game one, my hand is durdly and my opponent has early Metalworker into OMG WHAT'S HAPPENING and things go downhill from there. I think I ended up with 4 Blasts in hand but no Painter, which made Ensnaring Bridge feel pretty bad. I board like this:
-1 Pyroblast
-3 Red Elemental Blast
-1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
+2 Abrade
+2 Sudden Shock
+1 Fiery Confluence
I may have games two and three backwards. Game two my opponent has Metalworker > stuff, but I have Confluence. That card is gas. I eventually combo out. Game three I play a turn 2 Painter > Blast your second Cloudpost, then a Moon and my opponent does not draw mana rocks. I never draw Grindstone so my deck goes into death-by-a-thousand-cuts mode. Two Recruiters, two Painters, and a Magus get in there for lethal.
Round 4 - BUG Delver
Game one I have a turn two (I think) Moon and my opponent concedes. I assume 4-color or BUG something and board something like this:
-1 Ensnaring Bridge
-2 Goblin Welder
-1 Magus of the Moon
+2 Abrade
+2 Sudden Shock
Game two is long and grind(stone)y. Not. My opponent has a Null Rod which I am never able to remove, and Deathrite Shaman + cleanup step allows him to make mana to cast a couple of large [cards]Tarmogoyf[cards]s through my Moon. I eventually have to chump with dudes and never draw Ensnaring Bridge. Game three I'm one again facing a huge Tarmogoyf (cast through Moon again) and then savagely topdeck Painter then Grindstone. Better lucky than good I guess. And no, I have no idea why I boarded out Magus for game two. He came back in for game three, but I have no idea for what. I blame alcohol.
Round 5 - U/R Delver
Game one my opponent has an aggressive hand and I am on the back foot for a while despite Blasting one or more Stormchaser Mages. I play a random Revoker, savagely naming a card in my own deck (Grim Lavamancer). He chumps like a man shortly thereafter. Taylor Swiftspear makes an appearance too and beats my face in for a while, but I eventually resolve double Ensnaring Bridge. Grim Lavamancer kills a dude and then I Grindstone myself for what must have been 12 cards. Lavamancer deals a solid eight damage to my opponent before he gets Chain Lightning'd, but Chandra's +1 finishes the job as my opponent is at very low life. Sitting at around eight life, I expected to die to burn but it never happened. I board like this:
-4 Blood Moon
-1 Magus of the Moon
-1 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Sudden Demise
+2 Abrade
+2 Sudden Shock
Game two we exchange early removal spells and I resolve the combo and maybe a Bridge relatively quickly. Something dies to Smash to Smithereens. My opponent plays Bedlam Reveler to dig for gas and I misplay by not activating Grindstone in response. He draws nothing and I get there anyways.
At this point I am 5-0 and the one seed. I ID with my round six opponent, who I knew was on Sneak and Show (nope nope nope). I think the top eight ended up looking something like this:
Miracles
Eldrazi
Elves
Sneak and Show
Storm
Imperial Painter
Grixis Delver (2x)
I could be off by one or two decks as I didn't see everybody play. During my ID, take the opportunity to purchase a couple of signed playmats from Rob Alexander (Taiga and Underground Sea), as the yuuuge line at his station had subsided to a more reasonable length.
Top Eight - Round One
I am on the draw, as I ended up fifth seed and my opponent is fourth. I keep a reasonable seven, and my opponent has Deathrite into aggro and an immediate Wasteland for my first sol land. I am unable to empty my hand fast enough for Bridge but end up drawing the second combo piece. Unfortunately, I am a turn too slow due to being short on lands, and I die to Deathrite on my opponent's upkeep after milling his library out. I board like this:
-1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
-2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
-2 Goblin Welder
-1 Magus of the Moon
+2 Sudden Demise
+2 Abrade
+2 Sudden Shock
I mull a garbage seven (no lands I think) into a six with Blasts, Bridge, Moon, Monkey, and lands. I open Mountain, go. My opponent plays Deathrite. I slam Moon on turn 2 which resolves. My opponent plays Pyromancer > Probe > Probe > Ponder (I Blast this, he Forces) > Probe. I play a Bridge to slow the bleeding as he suddenly has a ton of power. He untaps and Ancient Grudges it. I play out the combo but have no outs to flashback Grudge + beats. The verdict: Ban Deathrite Shaman.
Anyways, it was a good run. The deck is powerful but simply not powerful enough to beat Grixis Delver's nut draw without actually drawing sideboard cards. I had few issues with other matchups outside of Storm which is a known bad matchup. Going forward, I would likely trim 2 Welder and a third card (maybe a Blast, maybe something else) for some Lightning Bolts. When playing this deck, I always hope Delver opens with its namesake card rather than Deathrite as Delver is so much easier to deal with. The sideboard also needs to be reworked to contain proper silver bullets (Manic Vandal and Scab-Clan Berserker) and some number of Volcanic Fallout. Because silver bullets are good, and because Grixis can go die in a fire.
Absolutely. In hindsight I wish i had played Painter in the main event, although matchups may or may not have been better. Painter is better equipped to steal wins from random decks due to the fast combo kill. As for your second question, I think it's pretty daring to play anything other than Grixis at a GP right now.
If possible, can someone link me the link to someone that streams painter regularly?
I don't think anyone streams painter regularly. I do it from time to time but I play several different versions. I do have some older videos still posted. My twitch handle is Rude_Eternal. I would also watch for kapn as he may stay streaming more again in the near future.
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Does anyone have a "standard list" for this deck now? There's been a lot of experimenting and overlap with RW, so what's the accepted baseline, and what's different between mono R and RW?
The RW version plays Enlightened Tutor, which is a very strong card. If you want to know the difference between the 2 decks, go check out http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...erry-Shortcake, it has all the information you need.
I would say that the baseline for Imperial Painter (mono-red) looks something like this:
4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Blood Moon
1-2 Magus of the Moon
3-4 Simian Spirit Guide
2-3 Lotus Petal
0-1 Chrome Mox
1-3 Goblin Welder
0-2 Phyrexian Revoker
0-1 Spellskite
0-1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
0-1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
0-1 Manic Vandal
0-2 Abrade
2-3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Pyroblast
1-3 Red Elemental Blast
2-4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
9-11 Mountain
0-2 Great Furnace
//Sideboard [note that any of the maindeck recruitable creatures are often found split between main and side depending on meta, and sometimes additional copies of cards like Bridge and Chandra are also boarded]
0-4 Thorn of Amethyst
0-3 Pyroclasm
0-2 Sudden Demise
0-2 Sudden Shock
0-2 Faerie Macabre
0-3 Tormod's Crypt
0-2 Surgical Extraction
0-2 Fiery Confluence
See posts #4991 and #4938 for some recent examples.
Recently, mono-red seems to have moved a little more towards a Dragon Stompy-esque strategy (although this is arguable, and has been argued on this very thread haha). This means, in short, more fast mana, more moons, and more 4-mana haymakers in Chandra/Pia and Kiran.
The Strawberry Shortcake (red-white) lists are aiming to use Enlightened Tutor to find combo (and sometimes lock) pieces, where the moon plan is incidentally. Recently, Ethersworn Canonist has been adopted as another maindeck tool and people are experimenting with fewer Moons. The predominant development in Shortcake lately has been leveraging Smuggler's Copter for card selection and as an additional threat in the wake of the Sensei's Divining Top banning. This has driven the deck to play more creatures in order to be able to reliably crew it, placing constraints on deck construction that don't exist in the same way in mono-red.
It sounds like shortcake is having a lot of success with canonist. Thoughts on putting dampening sphere in the side? It shuts down Sol lands a bit, but then so does moon
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