Hey painter people, I started getting into the deck a few month or so before the top ban and have been lurking for a little while. I've devoured every piece of content I can find, so I figure it's high time to get involved and help weld what we can back into play, top shenanigans or no top shenanigans. (As an aside, if anyone knows of any more painter coverage/matches floating around, that'd be sweet! Think I've pretty much all of the SCG stuff.)
Since the ban I've been jamming RW with more Enlightened Tutors, but also UR—not a painted stone list, though, don't worry. It's much like RW, with Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge and so on, but Intuition instead of Enlightened Tutor. Not a million miles away from what Kap'n Cook posted a little while ago, really.
3 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Mox Opal
4 Goblin Welder
3 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Blood Moon
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Intuition
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
//Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Manic Vandal
1 Intuition
2 Sudden Shock
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Pyroclasm
I'm not a fan of Chrome Mox and have been trying Mox Opal, upping the artifact count with Great Furnace to enable it. Not sure if 20 artifacts is enough. Anyone got any figures on how many required to reliably turn on metalcraft?
More Great Furnace means more vulnerable to Wasteland, but Great Furnace staying an artifact under Blood Moon is nice, and Welder is a very strong card, so I figure more play on that front isn't bad either.
Intuition is great, and having a kill from just Welder on the board and end of turn Intuition steals games when people aren't expecting it. The difference between Intuition and Enlightened Tutor feels huge to me, but then I've never been that keen on Enlightened Tutor.
Dack Fayden is sweet, but I don't think he really does what the deck wants—possibly a bit too cute? Chandra still feels great.
I've pushed up the land count because losing top hurts consistency, so currently the list is at 26 mana sources. Thoughts?
Surgical is a card for sure, but losing a combo piece to it isn't necessarily that problematic because it usually means that our opponent isn't putting much pressure on, giving us plenty of time to set up Ensnaring Bridge, Chandra, and/or assorted dorks. Also, I wouldn't see it as a compelling argument not to run Intuition, as decks that will run it often have a way of getting our cards into the 'yard either way. Cabal Therapy, etc.
I've toyed with a 1-of Trinket Mage in either the main or the board. It's nice to be able to go the long way round via Imperial Recruiter to get Grindstone if it comes up, and you can tutor up a land or fast mana, or explosives and crypt post board. It has some play to it for sure, but it is slow. In general, of course there are plenty of good utility creatures—Spellskite, Phyrexian Revoker, Jaya Ballard and Magus of the Moon and so on. Clearly, though, there's not space for all of them if you're running 4 Goblin Welder, which I think is where the deck wants to be. In any case, I'm not sure which of those should be main and which should be side. Clearly, it also depends on where the meta goes.
I haven't played with Gamble at all and would be curious to hear how people are getting on with that.
As far as the sideboard, there are clearly many avenues one can take, but as others have pointed out, Storm is seeing an uptick making Thorn of Amethyst good. Tormod's Crypt is a concession to Reanimator and Emrakul decks (Sneak and Show), as well as various other graveyard strategies, but might be better as Surgical Extraction.
The sweepers are mainly for Elves (and do double duty for Death and Taxes), which mostly comes down to combo speed and having a painter on the board in order to be able to counter Natural Order. I'm not sure what's worth looking into here given that Grafdigger's Cage is such a nonbo with Goblin Welder.
I like having the extra Intuition, which is making me wonder whether it should be 3 copies maindeck.
I've still been running Sudden Shock over other burn spells to me because it kills things in the matchups in which you want to kill things while not allowing them to interact, but I have to confess to not having played with Firebolt. It does seem sweet with Intuition and is clearly a good answer to Deathrite.
The point that others have raised about running out of gas is all too real, and I'm not sure what the options are aside from going heavier blue. Faithless Looting digs, but doesn't actually accrue any card advantage and Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage. Chandra at least does some good work, as ever.
Anyway, that's probably more than enough for now—I'd love to hear about people's thoughts and ongoing testing results. I've been playing on Cockatrice, which is less good than MTGO, but better than nothing. If anyone has any advice for getting the deck on MTGO in anything resembling a cost efficient way, please share haha.
You can still use the Cage to get non-creature artifacts with Welder. Additionally, you could EOT on their turn use Welder to target both your Cage and Painter in your yard (assuming he's the only artifact there), causing you to sac Cage, which lets you untap and combo out.Originally Posted by jasper
Yup, all valid points. It does hold you back, though, particularly if you're trying to combo with intuition. I think you are saying this, but it's worth being clear that attempting to weld Painter-in-yard and Cage just results in sacrificing the Cage (which is, as you say, a way to get the cage off the board and then weld again).
I have also actually really been liking mox opal. The mana base of all the painter decks I'm currently working on look like this right now:
4 Ancient Tomb
2-3 City of Traitors
4 fetch
4 Great Furnace
2-3 Mountain
2 duals
3 lotus petal
3 mox opal
(+/- 1 LED)
With this mana base I never feel like I am cutting myself off of my splash color. In a way it's a little more vulnerable to wasteland but on the other hand you can't wasteland opals and it's not card disadvantage like chrome mox. Obviously null rod sucks but that is a must answer card for our deck anyway. I have never really had a problem turning the opals on and in fact can often turn them on turn one with a 1 drop artifact and a petal or furnace. I have many turns where I play turn 1 furnace, grindstone, opal, welder. Downside is they don't always turn on on turn 1 so it isn't always fast mana for blood moon on turn 1. That would be the one major benefit of chrome mox.
Caught one of your matches on Mtgo the other day. How are you liking pyrite spell bomb? I have just recently tried it and I have to say so far it will do as the best substitute for top for my current build. Gets you a card to help the fact that we are out of cards by turn 4 or kills delvers and deathrites plus the added synergy with goblin welder.
Here's my current list:
11 mountain
4 tomb
4 city of traitors
1 great furnace
4 painter
4 imperial recruiter
4 simian spirit guide
2 goblin welder
1 magus of the moon
4 pyroblast
3 magma jet
2 red elemental blast
4 blood moon
4 grindstone
3 pyrite spellbomb
3 Chandra torch of defiance
2 ensnaring bridge
SB:
2 fairie macabre
2 kozileks return
1 manic vandal
1 Chandra pyromaster
2 fiery confluence
2 tormods crypt
2 ensnaring bridge
3 trinisphere
I basically replaced the tops with pyrite spellbombs. I am using magma jets instead of sudden shocks which I'm not too happy about but I feel like the ability to dig in a post top ban world might be more important. I went from 2 to 3 Chandra in the main in place of the 3rd ensnaring bridge, also for the card advantage. Board is pretty self explanatory. I wanted a good number of sweepers for all the dnt at my lgs as well as for the expected uptick in elves. The Chandra pyromaster seems clunky so that will probably be the first one to go. Surprisingly miracles wasn't too popular at my lgs (maybe 2-3 players at most out of 15-20). But it is nice not having to dedicate sideboard space for it. Just hope I have enough hate for storm.
Yeah, I'm totally sold on that card. I was just playing it in my r/w painter/bomberman deck. But it's been so good that I am now playing a couple copies in my r/b deck as well. I do play 4 x welder and new Daretti so he spellbomb becomes a reasonable alt win con as well as draw and creature removal. I've been very impressed so far.
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My main concern is not necessarily with what our new deck looks like at first but more how we are positioned in the meta. If we are stretched to far we will dilute ourselves. An example of this would be covering the new faster storm and combo decks (which we race) against the rise in show and tell decks (which we lock), or burn strategies like UR delver which are traditionally just bad.
Spellbomb while great in some matchups is just dead in others. With the loss of top we really need to ensure our cards are exactly what we need.
This experience is likely echoed by a deck like Dnt as well.
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So, the great thing about spellbomb is that it is never just dead. It's amazing at picking off 2 toughness creatures obviously (including mother of runes, by the way), but it can also go to the face and with an active welder every artifact you have on the board then becomes 2 damage to the face. At worst, it's a cantrip that, again with an active welder, makes every artifact you have on the board a cantrip as well. Don't get me wrong, it's no top, but in the right deck it can be a pretty good card draw engine. It's a card I really encourage people to try.
On the other hand, now that I've had an ample amount of playtesting post the top ban, I begrudgingly admit that gamble might just be a bad card (sorry, L10). It works well in the perfect scenario of active welder and hellbent, but in those cases I would rather just have had entomb. I have however played too many games now where I turn 1 gamble for a blood moon, only to lose the blood moon or some other vital card. I'm actually going to try diabolic intent in my b/r deck for a while and see how that goes. I have up'd my creature and daretti count so it's a little easier to make happen. It's easier to combo diabolic intent with 15 creatures (or creature producing planewalkers) than it is to combo gamble/entomb with 4 welders. Vote's not in.
As to your metagame question, I think that, particularly without top, we are not usually trying to "race" other faster combo decks. I will try to race if I have the pieces in hand or I think I can combo off by turn 3. But other storm decks are consistently going to be comboing off on turn 3 and so most times I'm hoping to lock them for a while and then set up. so if I'm playing r/w painter against storm and I have an etutor in hand on turn 1, I'm going for a canonist to drop turn 2 vs one of my combo pieces. I do think the meta is shifting a lot though and one card I am definitely going to go back to in r/w is containment priest. Show and tell and elves are very popular again.
Against sneak and show should we be blasting all cantrips or waiting for show and tell? I feel like every time I let them resolve a brainstorm or ponder I should have blasted it because they are eventually going to find sneak attack if they keep cantripping.
I've been having reasonable success with my red build throughout the year. Today I went 4-0 beating RG lands (2-0), dredge (2-0), infect (2-1)and eldrazi (2-0.)
In expectation of combo decks and Fatal Pushes I was testing a maindeck Hope of Ghirapur - which was very useful. It contributed to several crucial plays.
EDIT:
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Blood Moon
4 Pyroblast
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Sudden Shock
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Hope of Ghirapur
1 Goblin Welder
1 Chrome Mox
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
SB:
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Fiery Confluence
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Electrickery
Last edited by Hopo; 05-05-2017 at 02:33 AM. Reason: added decklist
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
I feel like those sudden shocks could easily be magma jets, especially for consistency after top ban. If they counter magma jet, whatever, there are millions other spells we want to resolve like bridge and moon which are more important than a removal spell usually.
Of course if you're always playing against death and taxes or infect sudden shock is boss, but overall i think jet is a better choice.
I have played with Magma Jets forever, trying pretty much every reasonable on unreasonable option besides that. Sudden Shock is a product of years of evolution in my part. At the end of the day I just want my removal to actually kill the target. I have gotten too many crucial removal spells countered to settle for anything less than Sudden Shock. Firebolt is sort of an option but quite mana intensive.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
I think it depends on the situation. If I have some sort of a clock on them I will definitely counter the cantrips. I also put more weight on countering a brainstorm if they are set up with a fetch land. On the other hand, most ponders and "non-fetching" brainstorms I will usually let go.
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Sneak attack matchup is all about Bridge. If you have it in hand, you don't care about show and tell. Cantrips are good counter targets, especially Brainstorm. You need a blast to force through your Chandra or other wincon so you need some thought behind your plays anyway. In short: it depends. The more familiar you are with the matchup, the easier it gets. That's why people playtest before tournaments and you should too.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Hey, anyone here from the Pittsburgh area? I have to be out there for a few days in 2 weeks and was wondering if there is a legacy scene out there? Anywhere that is sure to fire on a Thursday or Friday night? Thanks.
Last edited by drude1; 05-09-2017 at 06:38 PM.
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD27847S/
Mono Red Painter went 12th out of 267 players. Pretty good result.
Great to see!
relic seems really strong on multiple fronts:
- Deathrite
- Eldrazi shuffle
- surgical
- card draw
- snapcaster
- more deathrite
- past in flames
Yeah, I'm totally on board with this as well. I did add 1 nihil spellbomb to the main in r/b for similar reasons. I really wish relic wouldn't exile itself from the yard. It would so amazing if it wasn't for that. Part of me wants to play mono red just so I can play 4 x chandra. She is so good. Pretty strong list overall....no surprises.
what card is missing from the mainboard I wonder
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