[Deck] Imperial Painter

[Morcrux]

Morcrux provided some great answers.

I'll give my 2 cents on some of them plus a bit more on things he didn't touch.

If you have a choice to play your grindstone or top on turn 1... Is this game one vs. unknown or Game 2 vs. Miracles? Are you on the Play or the Draw? IMO sticking that Grindstone is more important vs. Miracles since they have the possibility of locking down your CMC 1 spells, they also don't have that many ways to remove it... they have more post board, but it's not a ton. I know you want to land a top to grind the game out... but IMO Top is far more important to Miracles game plan then it is to ours. I've revoked Top even when I've had my own Top out... I've revoked top in matches where only I had a Top in play... and still won. Naming Jace with Revoker is wrong. You've got Red Elemental Blasts Effects out the wazoo, Jace can't break up the combo, and really isn't a huge threat to us. The only miracles card I'd be worried about is Entreat (Terminus is really weak vs. our deck... it can disrupt the combo but it just puts things where Recruiter can get them) and even then it's not too bad because you should have access to ratchet bomb or engineered explosives... so I'm not sure It's worth fighting over Brainstorms... Prudent REB effect usage and Revoker usage seems to be the keys to winning this matchup.

Revoker does work, but it's only a temporary answer with all the ways they have of removing it. I agree that sticking a grindstone is important, but you'll notice that they'll never really counter grindstone or top since they're less significant than Painter or some other bomb. In this regard I'd rather have an early top-activation with a sol land. But if you don't have a sol land, then I'd use the first mana on Grindstone, yes.

Jace isn't a buffer for our combo, but once they start having free brainstorms every turn we'll quickly fall behind, so better just get rid of him unless we can save the blast to protect combo next turn or something.

[GundamGuy]

Revoker does work, but it's only a temporary answer with all the ways they have of removing it. I agree that sticking a grindstone is important, but you'll notice that they'll never really counter grindstone or top since they're less significant than Painter or some other bomb. In this regard I'd rather have an early top-activation with a sol land. But if you don't have a sol land, then I'd use the first mana on Grindstone, yes.

Jace isn't a buffer for our combo, but once they start having free brainstorms every turn we'll quickly fall behind, so better just get rid of him unless we can save the blast to protect combo next turn or something.

That stands to reason. I mean you can't let Jace just do Jace things with impunity and win. My whole point about Jace wasn't that he's a card that you should just let stick around, it was that naming Jace with Revoker is wrong. We've got way to many instant speed answers to Jace to be worried about 4 mana unsummons or brainstorms.

Revoker is temporary, but it's a pretty good card to drop early on Top since it also has legs and Miracles (especially without Monastery Mentor) doesn't commit legs to the board quickly. My experience is early game they don't want to spend there STP on Revoker just to unlock Top, out of respect to Painter's Servant.

Additionally in the mid game I've often found myself casting SSG's against Miracles.

[Soldier of Fortune]

Does anyone have any feedback on Nahiri? I am trying her in place of the third Top but I haven't been able to play test much. The only people I've played against were on Lands, 12 Post and Shardless and those matches are kind of a blow out anyway. Her ultimate is easily and quickly attainable which has been nice for when I can't find a piece of the combo. All her other abilities are relevant which has been nice. I really want to test her against Miracles as being able to blow up a resolved Counterbalance seems way nice. Just wondering what other people think.

[Michael Keller]

I can speak from my experience playing against Miracles once, sometimes twice a week at the local that the deck just needs to come out of the gates swinging. The longer the game gets dragged out, the worse it gets. I've found that a powerful angle of attacking Miracles is to actually attack their mana base early and often. In recent matches against the deck, I've integrated Active Volcano back into the deck. I've not only been firing off early one-mana Stone Rains, but I've found myself in a position where the card gives great value against cheap Delvers, Blighted Agents, Counterbalance, etc., while also turning into a Recoil against some decks in the early goings.

Blasts in this match-up are just highly underrated. The key is not necessarily stopping Top - because Revoker is soft to just about everything they have. If you start firing off aggressive one-mana Stone Rains early on, my results have at least shown that the deck is able to punish greedy keeps with Top as a source of mana fixing. This not only stunts their board development early, but puts them in a situation where their resources are tied up using mana to activate Top while we punch through with the combo. Is it risky? Somewhat. But the true power of these cards are lit up when Painter's Servant enters the battlefield, and anytime you can play Stone Rain at instant speed for one mana is still a good play early on.

Blood Moon - surprisingly - does have game against Miracles. Some people might disagree, but the truth is Miracles plays the card in the sideboard at its own pace. Meaning, it fetches for basics then fires it off - thus giving itself an advantage. If someone slams Blood Moon against the deck and shuts off double-blue/white mana for Jace, Counterbalance, Judgement, in addition to Blasting/Volcanoing basic Plains (an early power play), then Blood Moon becomes a game-changer. At its very core, Miracles is simply a control deck. Historically, control decks are mana heavy and mana hungry. If you shut down their resources early and force an opponent into timing their spells awkwardly, you have a very good chance to steal games early.

Miracles obviously plays many lands, but again - Blood Moon and Blasts early is a solid way to punch through spells and really back the opponent into awkward decisions. And just because a player plays a healthy number of land doesn't always mean they'll draw one every turn. Consider this: the earliest Painter lists also ran Active Volcano in a Counterbalance-heavy metagame in 2008 to great success. Some of that may be attributed to inexperience playing against the archetype in its infancy, but Counterbalance-Top decks are still just that with cantrips and removal tossed in the mix. I've been very pleased with them back in the deck so far, but that's just me and I'm nuts. :-)

[Morcrux]

Played a swiss 5 with 1/1 split of Nahiri today, and she's exiled a Nether Spirit, a Mother (after luring him into tapping it to protect a weld on Revoker) and a Counterbalance. Also got through a ulti to find grindstone. She does work great, but she's also been clunky to have at hand some games because of blood moon and high cost, so I'm juggling between keeping 1 main and up to 4 petals, or keep 2 in side.

[GundamGuy]

I can speak from my experience playing against Miracles once, sometimes twice a week at the local that the deck just needs to come out of the gates swinging. The longer the game gets dragged out, the worse it gets. I've found that a powerful angle of attacking Miracles is to actually attack their mana base early and often. In recent matches against the deck, I've integrated Active Volcano back into the deck. I've not only been firing off early one-mana Stone Rains, but I've found myself in a position where the card gives great value against cheap Delvers, Blighted Agents, Counterbalance, etc., while also turning into a Recoil against some decks in the early goings.

Blasts in this match-up are just highly underrated. The key is not necessarily stopping Top - because Revoker is soft to just about everything they have. If you start firing off aggressive one-mana Stone Rains early on, my results have at least shown that the deck is able to punish greedy keeps with Top as a source of mana fixing. This not only stunts their board development early, but puts them in a situation where their resources are tied up using mana to activate Top while we punch through with the combo. Is it risky? Somewhat. But the true power of these cards are lit up when Painter's Servant enters the battlefield, and anytime you can play Stone Rain at instant speed for one mana is still a good play early on.

Blood Moon - surprisingly - does have game against Miracles. Some people might disagree, but the truth is Miracles plays the card in the sideboard at its own pace. Meaning, it fetches for basics then fires it off - thus giving itself an advantage. If someone slams Blood Moon against the deck and shuts off double-blue/white mana for Jace, Counterbalance, Judgement, in addition to Blasting/Volcanoing basic Plains (an early power play), then Blood Moon becomes a game-changer. At its very core, Miracles is simply a control deck. Historically, control decks are mana heavy and mana hungry. If you shut down their resources early and force an opponent into timing their spells awkwardly, you have a very good chance to steal games early.

Miracles obviously plays many lands, but again - Blood Moon and Blasts early is a solid way to punch through spells and really back the opponent into awkward decisions. And just because a player plays a healthy number of land doesn't always mean they'll draw one every turn. Consider this: the earliest Painter lists also ran Active Volcano in a Counterbalance-heavy metagame in 2008 to great success. Some of that may be attributed to inexperience playing against the archetype in its infancy, but Counterbalance-Top decks are still just that with cantrips and removal tossed in the mix. I've been very pleased with them back in the deck so far, but that's just me and I'm nuts. :-)

I agree with all of this. I'm not sold 100% on Active Volcano, but I agree with the game plan.

I still think Revoker is a great play on Top, yes it can totally be removed by pretty much all of their removal, but Revoker is great in that it turns sideways which is one of the major things you want to be doing all game. Keep the pressure up, and don't rely on the combo.

[Michael Keller]

The problem with Revoker and Needle on Top is that they're so soft to everything in the opponent's deck: Swords, Snapcaster Mage, Terminus, Wear//Tear, etc. It gives me a false sense of security when I play those cards (aside from Revoker against Storm), because I know it's only a temporary fix.

In a mono-red variant, I've been looking at Pyromancer's Goggles as another option to beef up the Blast Attack. I'm just going to throw this out there - but has anyone at least considered Artifact Blast against artifact-heavy decks, with incidental utility against Top-based strategies? It seems like a good fit with Simian Spirit Guide to blow out an opponent who keeps their hand with a Top and one land.

This deck has such good match-ups across the board, but when it runs into Top-based strategies it seems to have a harder time.

[Totenbot]

The problem with Revoker and Needle on Top is that they're so soft to everything in the opponent's deck: Swords, Snapcaster Mage, Terminus, Wear//Tear, etc. It gives me a false sense of security when I play those cards (aside from Revoker against Storm), because I know it's only a temporary fix.

In a mono-red variant, I've been looking at Pyromancer's Goggles as another option to beef up the Blast Attack. I'm just going to throw this out there - but has anyone at least considered Artifact Blast against artifact-heavy decks, with incidental utility against Top-based strategies? It seems like a good fit with Simian Spirit Guide to blow out an opponent who keeps their hand with a Top and one land.

This deck has such good match-ups across the board, but when it runs into Top-based strategies it seems to have a harder time.

I like the idea mostly, but I for one kind of forgot artifact blast was a card.
In regards to previous questions about Nahiri, I've been playing her recently and liked her a lot, exiled a library and knight of the reliquary pretty reliably thus far.

Also thanks to whoever reminded me how great sulfur elemental is, he wiped a field of elves for me recently with painter on white.

[Morcrux]

Artifact Blast.. hah, now that's funny! It's quite genious against top, and incredible in the mirror, but I'm afraid that's it. We already got a pretty good matchup against MUD and Tezzerator.
As for the Goggles, double blasts seems really interesting. 5 mana's a lot, but it can be tapped for a blast at once..

[GundamGuy]

The problem with Revoker and Needle on Top is that they're so soft to everything in the opponent's deck: Swords, Snapcaster Mage, Terminus, Wear//Tear, etc. It gives me a false sense of security when I play those cards (aside from Revoker against Storm), because I know it's only a temporary fix.

In a mono-red variant, I've been looking at Pyromancer's Goggles as another option to beef up the Blast Attack. I'm just going to throw this out there - but has anyone at least considered Artifact Blast against artifact-heavy decks, with incidental utility against Top-based strategies? It seems like a good fit with Simian Spirit Guide to blow out an opponent who keeps their hand with a Top and one land.

This deck has such good match-ups across the board, but when it runs into Top-based strategies it seems to have a harder time.

Pyromancer's Goggle is just a bit to much IMO, if it had been 3 or 4 mana it would have been broken, I realize... but at 5 it's really hard to justify. There has got to be a cheaper way to double up on blasts. If we had other key instants or sorceries that we were playing... maybe I could see it. I just don't think we have the density of instant and or sorceries to justify it. I'd love to know how testing goes though.

IMO Artifact Blast is too narrow even though it's a cute card.

Also I agree with you Revoker and Needle on top isn't a "Win the Game... Now" play, but Revoker is still good because it makes them expend resources they want to use on more important cards... also again Revoker is a 2/1 and can attack early against the slow to develop Miracles Board (Needle is bad IMO) so it's a good momentum play. I agree it doesn't win you the game, and it shouldn't make you feel like your safe behind your wall... but it's a good momentum play along the way.

[Michael Keller]

Pyromancer's Goggle is just a bit to much IMO, if it had been 3 or 4 mana it would have been broken, I realize... but at 5 it's really hard to justify. There has got to be a cheaper way to double up on blasts. If we had other key instants or sorceries that we were playing... maybe I could see it. I just don't think we have the density of instant and or sorceries to justify it. I'd love to know how testing goes though.

IMO Artifact Blast is too narrow even though it's a cute card.

Also I agree with you Revoker and Needle on top isn't a "Win the Game... Now" play, but Revoker is still good because it makes them expend resources they want to use on more important cards... also again Revoker is a 2/1 and can attack early against the slow to develop Miracles Board (Needle is bad IMO) so it's a good momentum play. I agree it doesn't win you the game, and it shouldn't make you feel like your safe behind your wall... but it's a good momentum play along the way.

Having late-game power against Miracles could be crucial. That's what the deck is sorely lacking right now. Goggles shores up that weakness by making each of your Blasts that much more potent and giving you added value, much like Snapcaster Mage into X card would do. Having that ability is really important and I think it's overlooked. I'm even starting to tinker with Isochron Scepter as a permanent source of disruption and added redundancy with Blast effects. With Welder, that could be really nasty and incredibly potent.

[zangoasyl]

Having late-game power against Miracles could be crucial. That's what the deck is sorely lacking right now. Goggles shores up that weakness by making each of your Blasts that much more potent and giving you added value, much like Snapcaster Mage into X card would do. Having that ability is really important and I think it's overlooked. I'm even starting to tinker with Isochron Scepter as a permanent source of disruption and added redundancy with Blast effects. With Welder, that could be really nasty and incredibly potent.

Isochron is an awesome idea for the grindy MUs!!

[Michael Keller]

Isochron is an awesome idea for the grindy MUs!!

Abrupt Decay being a ubiquitous card doesn't scare me off from playing a card like Scepter. There are plenty of cards they can target in this match-up, assuming they can get around Blood Moon. Anything that poses a scare or something of trouble for an opponent is enough for me to warrant its testing and subsequent usage.

[Sleight]

Against majority of non delver decks that run decay, are we even wanting the full amount of red blasts plus scepter? If you have the ability to tutor for it with painter out, sure it would be awesome, but wouldn't grindstone be the better tutor?

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[Michael Keller]

Against majority of non delver decks that run decay, are we even wanting the full amount of red blasts plus scepter? If you have the ability to tutor for it with painter out, sure it would be awesome, but wouldn't grindstone be the better tutor?

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I'd play it in a mono red version before the white splash. The strength of the mono red version is its stability and redundancy. Drawing Grindstone in the mono red version is really the only way to combo out, however attacking from an angle where you're focused on destroying permanents or having added power against blue decks anyhow would give the deck a boost instead of relying on its draws in the mid game.

[GradStudent]

Anyone play with a main plains?


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[Michael Keller]

Anyone play with a main plains?


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I tried it multiple times and it kept pissing me off with hands including it and a Sol land plus Blood Moon. It's better in my opinion out of the board where the white splash becomes more copious, much like Vintage where you'd board in a Mountain to support the help out of the board. In the main, it's kind of clunky because you're only running two white cards.

[mcbain]

I tried it multiple times and it kept pissing me off with hands including it and a Sol land plus Blood Moon. It's better in my opinion out of the board where the white splash becomes more copious, much like Vintage where you'd board in a Mountain to support the help out of the board. In the main, it's kind of clunky because you're only running two white cards.

I agree with this. Having tried MD Plains and sideboard I was much happier with access in the sideboard. However I currently play no Plains. If you do ensure that you run 4 Arid Mesa though.



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[Kap'n Cook]

I will gladly listen to the ideas of pyromancer's goggles and isochron scepter with only 6 to 7 imprintable cards maindeck when they actually work and have multiple large events (7 rounds +) results to back them up. Until then, they are just random and jank ideas. Artifact blast as well. Like what happens if they t1 top and you have 1 in your hand with no simian. All of a sudden you are down 1 card for no reason other than bad deckbuilding.

I don't concern myself with double IDs after 4 wins as that is just a small inbred tournament at that point. For the larger tournaments where you have to prepare for everything, I believe in the similar vein of Dredge that Parcher shares that there is a best 75 to run and I will always work towards that goal.

Speaking of which, I am currently loving Ajani in the board and have gone 16-2 in my past matches. Keeping the combo svelte maindeck with ultra tutor speed has been amazing, and the ability to side all the speed out for the grind house in games 2 or 3 has been a great transition. I'm not really sure why anyone would play mono red at this point as the flexibility and speed of Shortcake is worlds better than 4 extra mountains.

For those wondering, I have not tested Nahiri yet, but will get to it. Ajani has been great as a board control in multiple matchups. For example, against reanimator it tapped down a Griselbrand continuously. It is not as bomby as Koth is, but I have enjoyed its versatility.

-kap

[GradStudent]

made top 8 today.
lost match one to goblins
won match two to merfolk - wasn't even close even after i received a game loss for deck error
won match three to Shardless BUG through my punting plays - blood moon OP
Won match four against grixis delver on camera. https://www.twitch.tv/snapcasters/v/62340643 at 3 hours 11 minutes in
drew for top 8
and my first round match was top OmniShow gg
:(

i definitely dont have enough experience piloting the deck, wish there was a quick reference for updated sideboard strategies somewhere in this thread

top 8 was lands, omnishow with wish SB, jund, infect, me, dredge, burn, and i think grixis delver which I beat in match 3.


I used Kap's list with ajani
Lands player won it all, I'm curious what I would put in board or main based on this metagame, not many miracles and elves players out there.