Lattice is much better in a list that runs Looting. With Welder active, the cost to get it into play is much more reasonable than six mana.
That being said, I’m going to experiment with a quad LED list at some point.
I've been tinkering with a Painter/Bomberman hybrid quite a bit lately.
I will say that having 4 LEDs across the 75 feels super busted at times in conjunction with Goblin Welder.
I've been getting some ridiculous board states and very fast wins.
I'm still tweaking the list and it's still probably not the correct build (yet), but it just oozes raw power.
Seems interesting. I do agree with someone in the other thread though that it sucks that painter is really just a combo piece in this version without blasts, but space is tight. Welder LED interaction is definitely something I'm interested in with on board tutors and such.
Are there any other color matters kind of cards that could work with painter that are tutorable with karn (other than grindstone)?
-rob
I’m working on a new R/b Karn list with Entomb, Goblin Engineer, Welder, LED, and, of course, Karn. I’m also experimenting with the Tainted Pact interaction with Karn.
Sick. I've been thinking about the possibility of just running like a Singleton big day welder Target to get with engineer. I guess the options are mostly like Inkwell, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, maybe the new Bolas double sphere thing, and I guess there's an argument to a main board Lattice to find too. Battlesphere is also a possibility I guess
I'm glad I'm not the only one who has been brewing.
I've even been working on a UB 2-Card-Monte deck, since we are getting the London Mulligan.
Here is a rough draft:
4-Karn-Monte
Land (16)
4x Ancient Tomb
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
2x Seat of the Synod
2x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
Planeswalker (7)
4x Karn, the Great Creator
3x Narset, Parter of Veils
Instant (4)
4x Brainstorm
Creature (3)
3x Painter's Servant
Artifact (16)
3x Grindstone
3x Helm of Obedience
3x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
3x Mox Opal
Sorcery (10)
3x Echo of Eons
3x Ponder
4x Thoughtseize
Enchantment (4)
4x Leyline of the Void
Sideboard
2x Collective Brutality
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Flusterstorm
1x Grindstone
1x Helm of Obedience
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Painter's Servant
2x Perilous Voyage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Anvil of Bogardan
edit: also, @Michael Keller, Tainted Pact + Karn sounds nasty.
What is everyone's SB/Wishboard looking like right now?
My current wish targets with 3 Karn is
Pithing Needle
Ensnaring Bridge
2x Tormods Crypt
Grafdiggers Cage
Mycosynth Lattice
Grindstone
3x Thorn of Amethyst
Obviously the second crypt and thorns aren't strictly there for wishing. I feel like I can probably afford to cut something like Cage maybe? I really just want my wish board to pretty much be at the care minimum and maybe for in a 6th blast in my board to board in
Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
Grindstone says: "If both cards share a color, repeat this process." That condition applies even if the cards were put into a zone other than what Grindstone's ability says, because they retain the "color" property in all zones (and are affected by Painter's Servants ability in all zones).
I'm on 4 Karn and have 4 exclusive wish targets (as in I never plan on boarding them in): Mycosynth Lattice, LED, Grindstone, and Ensnaring Bridge.
The rest of the board is:
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt (might be 1 Crypt, 1 Faerie Macabre)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sorcerous Spyglass (might be 1 Phyrexian Revoker, though I do like the ability to name Wasteland or Thespian's Stage)
3 Trinisphere (might go down to 2 in favor of a 4th GY interaction card depending on how the London Mulligan shakes out, probably Surgical Extraction)
1 Blood Moon
2 Magus of the Moon
I have no qualms boarding in all of the graveyard hate, all of the Trinispheres, and all of the Needle effects in matchups that call for them early and where finding them with Karn could be too slow. I think if I do go up to 4 GY hate cards in the SB, I could see leaving a Crypt or Relic to wish for in postboard games.
The consideration for Revoker or Macabre is (obviously) that Recruiter can find them. I think Macabre is a slightly weaker card compared to Crypt or Surgical but having 4 ways to find it does encourage a split. Does anyone have experience on Revoker vs Needle/Spyglass?
Generally, I think having a small dedicated wish package (like 5 or fewer cards) along with artifacts that CAN be wished for G1 but most likely all come in postboard is the way to go in order to maximize the efficiency of SB slots. TES adheres to a similar principle: "We try not to play an entire sideboard full of Burning Wish targets as doesn’t create the greatest value out of our available slots. Generally, I try to have no more than six or seven Burning Wish targets." (from theepicstorm.com). The stock TES list has 5 dedicated Burning Wish targets plus a sixth target in 3 Empty the Warrens, and often will board in 2 of the ETW in postboard games.
@Megadeus - how have the Thorns been? I was considering them over the Trinispheres.
Good thought on not over loading the board with too many Karn targets. Maybe I'll shave mine down a bit. I like Macabre because the recruiter thing. Being able to turn 1 a recruiter for macabre probably makes a number of hands more keepable even though Macabre is a weaker card. Also with the London Mulligan happening for sure it might change my board a bit too we'll see. Thorns have been fine for me. Not much storm around me though so I just generally bring them in against like deaths shadow and show and tell where they're fine but probably would be better off being something else. I just like that we can leverage The fact that a lot of our game plan revolves around creatures, and that I'm more likely to have 2 mana turn 1 than 3 for Trinisphere. I just feel like turn 1 thorn is so important against the decks that you want it against that it's worth the slightly weaker effect. Though I am debating a single 3 ball once engineer comes out just to find off of him to try to have game against Omniscience.
As for Revoker I value the ability to find it off recruiter and also it's ability to shut off artifact Mana like LED and Diamond since I have moons to beat depths stuff
Next weekend is our big local quarterly. Used to be just legacy but it's teams this time. I think this list is what I'm gonna be on. Bolts over clasm might be wrong, but Keller said they've been great in shortcake so I believe him
Imperial Painter:
Maindeck (60)
3 Goblin Welder
1 Goblin Cratermaker
2 Goblin Engineer
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Lotus Petal
3 Grindstone
3 Smuggler's Copter
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Blood Moon
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
10 Mountain
Sideboard (15)
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Grindstone
1 Pithing Needle
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mycosynth Lattice
Shared via TopDecked MTG
https://www.topdecked.me/decks/cc879...c-131db3e442b5
I’m honestly only a believer in Bolt in the mono red versions because white opens up more space with combo involved. I think Bolt is fine in either deck, but I like Pyroclasm actually better than Bolt out of the sideboard.
But I’m also working on a Rb build that uses Plague Engineer, Entomb and Thoughtseize. So I’ll keep you posted.
Goblin Engineer has been very good. Currently only testing it as a 1-of. The fact that Recruiter can chain to Grindstone is a big deal. My current list:
Land (22)
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
Creature (18)
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Goblin Engineer
2 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
3 Painter's Servant
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Spellskite
Planeswalker (6)
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Karn, the Great Creator
Other Spells (14)
4 Blood Moon
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Grindstone
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
Sideboard (15)
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Grindstone
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Painter's Servant
1x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Walking Ballista
UR Delver
-4 Blood Moon
-1 Magus of the Moon
-1 Phyrexian Revoker
+4 Lightning Bolt
+2 Red Elemental Blast
UW Control:
-4 Blood Moon
-1 Ensnaring Bridge
-1 Goblin Cratermaker (except Stoneblade)
-1 Magus of the Moon
+4 Lightning Bolt
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Surgical Extraction (except Stoneblade)
DnT/Maverick:
-2 Blood Moon
-2 Red Elemental Blast
+4 Lightning Bolt
Elves:
-4 Blood Moon
-0~1 Ensnaring Bridge
-1 Magus of the Moon
+4 Lightning Bolt
+1~2 Red Elemental Blast
Storm:
-4 Blood Moon
-1 Ensnaring Bridge
-1 Goblin Cratermaker
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Surgical Extraction
+2 Tormod’s Crypt
Show and Tell:
-4 Blood Moon
-1 Magus of the Moon
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Tormod’s Crypt
Reanimator:
-4 Blood Moon
-1 Goblin Cratermaker
-1 Magus of the Moon
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Surgical Extraction
+2 Tormod’s Crypt
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