HI
Have been playing with this deck for a long time, I never posted but read the forum a few time, I have a few questions
1. How do you beat the burn deck? UR ou R? Is it possible or everyone has a bad match up and that it, the only momment were I was able to beat them was with the white splash and warth in the bord.
2. I do not get why people are only running 2-3 fetch, I always run like 6-7, It help to look for better cards with the tops.
3. How many moon should I run, I usuly run around 6 (3 magus, 3 blood), Agains Rug I never cast them turn one, I always want to be able to pay for daze what are your tought on that.
4. Why torn of amethyste over the sphere or resistance since the sphere get elfe.
5. How is revoker better then Grim and welder in your metha,
I have a few more but that it for now
No offense man, but it doesn't seem that you've been playing this deck for a while.
More on the Burn question:
It's a bad match up. But all the decks on the OP are equipped to win the match up. You definitely have to play the control, and winning usually consists of staying alive long enough to combo them out. If they like to burn your 1/1's and 2/2's then consider it like playing a slew of Healing Salves. If you know a good Burn player then I'd suggest sitting down to a nice session of play testing with them.
Comb through the OP, this matchup is addressed from three different proponents' perspective.
I agree with Jandax here. If you have been reading here you should know the answer to most of these questions.Originally Posted by JO_MTG
1) read my summary opening page
2) So you have 6-7 fetches, 7-8 sol lands, maybe great furnace? So that leaves you with like 4-ish mountains? Pretty greedy and life loss adds up.
3) There is no reason to run less than 4 blood moons. If you want 6 moons, 4 bm-2 mag is the right split. Rug you should not leave Magus in postboard.
4) thorn does not stop painters, recruiters etc. Sphere would be overkill and elves can probably still generate enough mana after a few turns. Maybe someone else can weigh in since I have never liked thorn that much.
5) grim lavamancer? Why not another Jaya in that case since she handles more issues. Revoker stops Sneak attack, Griselbrand, so many unfair things etc. the list goes on and on. Welder rescues killed artifacts and increases synergy. Lavamancer sits there looking like a bitch.
Thanks a lot for your answers, I,ll post my thought on your comments to encourage discutions
Sorry english is my second language so I might have difficulty explaining my point, I want to work on getting this deck better and understanding our different card choice.
There is the metha at my local shop
1-3 RUG
2-3 BUG
2 Stone blade
1 ELFE
2 Goblin
1 Burn
1 UR Burn
1 ww
1 dredge
1 Reanimator (Tin FIn with Emrakul)
1 UW Counter top
1 Storm somethime
I rarely see Emrakul exept in the reanimator deck
1) read my summary opening pag. Was done a long time Ago and more recently
2) So you have 6-7 fetches, 7-8 sol lands, maybe great furnace? So that leaves you with like 4-ish mountains? Pretty greedy and life loss adds up. Yes exactly 4 basic, I do not play mox... How is it gready to have only 4 mountain ? When do you need more then that, and most of the time in the end game your fetch are mountain under the blood moon
3) There is no reason to run less than 4 blood moons. If you want 6 moons, 4 bm-2 mag is the right split. Rug you should not leave Magus in postboard. Yes there a reason the second blood moon is completly dead, the second magus attack, But I think your right I guess I should have enought time to find what I need to kill my oponent befor they get out of the lock and the moon lock the RUG player
4) thorn does not stop painters, recruiters etc. Sphere would be overkill and elves can probably still generate enough mana after a few turns. Maybe someone else can weigh in since I have never liked thorn that much. What is your sidebord option, for storm and elfe
5) grim lavamancer? Why not another Jaya in that case since she handles more issues. Revoker stops Sneak attack, Griselbrand, so many unfair things etc. the list goes on and on. Welder rescues killed artifacts and increases synergy. Lavamancer sits there looking like a bitch.
Lavalanver come online befor it,s to late,
- kill Deathrithe
- Kill elfe
- Kill stoneforge Befor they drop the equipment
-Also shrink GOyf
I'll take a stab at this
If your local meta consists of two or three burn decks, why really worry? Serious question. I'd focus more on being able to handle the rest of the field adequately. Burn is winnable, but not much fun.
1) Keep reading it. Over and over. Not saying you haven't, but it appears you haven't absorbed much of the important info on the front page, so I'd keep at it.
2)You need to play at least two Mox. More to follow. It's not greedy to have 4 basics, it's greedy to have more than four fetchlands. Life loss matters, it's the only way you're staying alive.
3)Multiple Moons are dead, but not if you have Mox in your list. That's one of the interactions you miss. Moxes turn dead cards into resources. Plus, Magus gets killed by tons of removal in all those decks you run. How many decks in your meta can easily remove a resolved Blood Moon (Enchantment)?
4) Thorns help slow down Storm enough for iPainter to do its thing. Ensnaring Bridge helps stop hoards of elves.
5)Jaya does all that and with a much better interaction with parts of your deck than Lavaman. If you don't know how nuts Jaya is, you're holding Lavaman on a way high standard. too high.
Look. You mean well. And please take this as objective advice, not a personal attack:
Trust the OP. Those three guys know what they're doing and you are trying to reinvent the wheel. There are three lists on the OP, one controlly, one Welder, and one generic, all proven, all tuned. Choose one that suits your style of play and copy it exactly. Play a few tournaments with that list, and once you begin to realize what the deck is trying to do, you'll realize your personal card choices discussed now are suboptimal and you're switching things out based on pride and ignorance (again, not attacking you, you need to get over this hump before you can play the deck well)
Hope this helps, and keep asking questions. It's the only way to get better
Easy guys he has valid questions.
1. Burn is rough. I think jack has had more success than me but even against terrible players I am probably below 30 percent. White splash would help for sure. It has gotten better after I started using Rest in Peace and Helm of Obediance as it is a combo they can't stop. The up side of that is rest in Peace is the best at what it does and it has so many applications that you are only wasting one sideboard slot to help you out. Somehing else to try is figure of destiny. He has fallen out of favor recently but he was also strong when run as a three of against burn. He can get huge, curves beautifully with the deck and can require multiple cards to kill. And that is the key, think of burn as a shitty combo deck played by bad players. You want to slow down it's critical turn( I imagine it's still someplace around turn 4) while putting the combo together in your hand and make mana. If you are on white Hollywood fucked around with Radiant Dragoons for a while in the match up. I am old and forgetful anymore so I don't remember the details but it's worth a look.
I agree people should run more fetches. For me I run 2 plateau and so I run five fetch land( onslaught of course) and really like it. I run 19 total lands hough which is more than Jack and some other guys. I also have got a 61 card deck these days. I'm overall really happy with the mana although sometimes you get burned but that is the cost of a sol land mana base.
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
Sorry for the double post but my phone is being lamer than a pair of jorts.
I have never found Grim Lavarmancer, I assume that is what you mean rather than Grim Tutor or Grim Monolith. We don't run enough instants to make him usable more than twice really. It happens sometimes but I found not worth he effort. If you don want an extra Jaya bc the card disadvantage is noteworthy if not acceptable try spinal villain. He pops a bunch of shit you care about and becomes awesome with painter.
I'm staying out of the thorn debate as most people know my thoughts. I do hink you shouldn't waste your time with it in a white splash. Use the fact that you are faster and more consistent on the combo plan to your advantage. Might as well maximize the advantage of the build.
And about the moons. I think anything less than six is wrong. I also think anything less than 4 blood moons is wrong. The fact you have to remember, if you played the first Blood Moon correctly and effectively locked them out of mana the one dead card in your hand is ok bc they have four or more. It was sort of like old chalice decks. Once you dropped one the virtual card advantage could be huge that you can handle the dead draws of addition pieces.
Hope this helps
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
Question for the floor:
I saw a deck the other day, splashed blue for Trinket Mage. I like the idea but I would rather not splash blue. What do people think about going white for cards like Enlightened Tutor?
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
@Jo MTG
Sorry man, Seth is right. I was a little hostile but it was mainly because the same questions keep popping up from new players.
Looking at your meta it is certainly understandable why you favor Lavamancer over Welder or Revoker. You have massive amounts of Burn/cheap creature spells in your meta and basically no Show and Tell, discard, planeswalkers, or storm . In the overall metagame I wholeheartedly say Lavamancer is wrong since discard is much more prevalent than a million burn players. And I guess that is the purpose of your high fetchland count. When I said it was greedy running that many, I didn't really mean because you were going to run out of mountains. More along the lines of Fetch damage and Tomb damage really really adds up fast. It looks like it wouldn't be a big deal, but so many times you just take a huge attack without blockers and then combo at 1 or 2 life. Not to mention getting fetches stifled sucks especially in this deck since you want to curve to 3 and 4 mana turns 2 and 3. In your meta I think running 4 ensnaring Bridge mainboard is the stone cold nuts.
For your question about storm, I use Leyline of Sanctity not because it is the best hate card, but because it helps much more against bad matchups like Burn, Belcher, and Black Discard. It's an added benefit that it is a major nuisance to storm. If I had unlimited sideboard space I would play thorns and Trinispheres, but I can't. I also run a Martyr of Ashes to deal with Empty the Warrens tokens. Martyr also applies to Zoo, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, and Tribal (not merfolk). So this is also another go-to card against Elves to clear their board, which answers your other question. Comboing off is still the number one plan since all the good elves lists don't run Emrakul anymore.
@Dicebox
I believe Drew tried a singleton Trinket Mage and discussed it in the old thread. He tweaked it so he ran 4 lotus petals and fewer SSG and a few volcs. Seth is the expert on splashing, especially enlightened tutor so I'll let him answer whatever questions you have.
Also I know I asked it already but we all got sidetracked. Anyone ever used Siege-Gang Commander? The only reason I am even considering him is because I already have 3 welders to pair him with.
So the trinket Mage idea was really strong about three years ago. Before Jace and Stoneforge and the like the 2/2 body mattered. And his utility to grab things like SDT, grindstone, and EE could really punish tempo decks and rock style decks. But with delver, knights, and deathrite shamen his value is lower. Yes he gives card advantage and utility but at a substantial cost of tempo. The format as a whole has actually speed up even though cards like daze have been pushed to the periphery. In that setting the mana instability is not offset by his strengths. E tutor is basically better, especially since counterbalance isn't played much. It gets even more cards, smaller loss of tempo and traditional card advantage continues to become less important as the game advances. (Note that last statement is most applicable for Legacy, in Vintage A Recall is still a top 3 card). Now metas can change so it is possible that Trinket Mage may be good again.
About Chrome Mox, I really dislike the card anymore. It is strongest in all in moon hands which to be honest you shouldnt always keep. Maybe In Non splash lists the speed is worth the risk. It is also better as you maximize welder. I have been using Lotus petal and find it to be amazing. I highly suggest everyone try that card out. It is even stronger in splash lists. The problem with Chrome Mox is that most often you don't want to pitch your gas to it. And that often leaves blasts and SSG. Which ironically os the wrong cards most of the time to pitch to it. Not to mention it make mulling harder.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
So are you saying that Chrome Mox in general is bad? I know exactly what you mean about pitching business to Mox, but indeed in a mono-red build it's necessary to power stuff out.
What about a Lotus Petal/Mox split? From my experience, exactly one Mox a match is probably good (roughly 30 tourney matches and lots of play testing against valid decks with decent players).
And again I wasn't trying to be hard on JO MTG, I just wanted to drive home points; these questions have already have been asked and answered, he needs to be open minded and accept known lists before he goes and tries to reinvent the wheel. In the end it's going to save time and hassel and it'll show him what is in the deck and better yet, why it's there.
Jandax I've try over the last 2-3 years different combination of that deck and played in over 20 tournement and test it, IVe got some good finish, unfortunatly I do not live in the United States so my fnish didn't get put online (NO SCG, NO LEGACY GP) of course there all smaller tournement. Do not assume I have rejected the establish list without tring it. And from what I have seem ther not relly an establish list,since most player that posted ther list in the last few page have different list, if ther a consensus on one I will be happy to try it.
I have try version similar to the one your playing (rarely went higher then 3 looting),
Version withe chrome mox up to recently and even LED long time ago, I have try the petal, I loved it in the white version but other then that ... I'm not shure since after a turn 1 moon you find yourself one 1 mana in a deck that need 3, 2 if you land drop, and if your spell got counter you are most likely behind on cards and on bord, a pretty good mixt to get kill (including the fact that they got 1-2 turn to drop a treat).
the mox is similar problem but even worst since you are now down 2 extra cards
I find myself playing 20 lands, instead of 18 like lots of list does (and my initial list did), it start a little slower but it is more consistent in the long run, your risque is to get them to fech an extra basic and to be able to play. But they are probably in very bad shape any way.
I have also try the siege gang commander a long time ago, the problem was is casting cost 5 is a lot even in that deck, and he dosen't beet that well, for the beating job try Kragan, if you want to block over multiple turn just chain the recruiter, and has pointed out earlier to shoot creature Jaya is the Queen.
I'm glad that some other player like the higher fetch count, the life lost dosn't mather that much in my experience (unless it is burn) but has most said already those are awfull match up any way.
The 4 moon missing from my list was definitively a mistake, I do not remimber when I did that change but it wont happen again.
I'm still unshure between grim, revoker and second welder.
Thanks for the leyline idea, I will try that soon.
@JO
I didn't assume you were avoiding established lists. It's just that the questions you asked and the card choices you were putting forth made it seem to me (and others apparently) that you were putting the cart before the horse. You also didn't mention your experience in any depth, so sorry if I sounded crass ;) It really did come from a good place
About the OP: The three guys' lists (seth, drew and kapn) are all different variations of the deck. Everyone has their own style and these three lists can cater to just about every (Control, combo and aggro) style one favors.
Why don't you post your 75 and we can go through it? It's one thing to ask questions about cards, but another to ask about the list in which they fit and why they are better than other options, ya know?
I just ordered stompy the other day. Turned out the only thing I was missing to make this was Imp and Grindstone. So lets say my bank is a touch lighter but now if I mix and match my cards I have a new deck. Now while I was looking at this I came to the belief that adding white would suit my play style. But as I have yet to play this deck other than a few online games I have no real experience to base my ideas from. So I thought I would post what I have come up with here and see if anyone can see any flaws I have missed.
Creatures:
2 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Art:
4 Grindstone
1 Lotus Petal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Blood Moon
Spells/Enchant:
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Blood Moon
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
Land
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
5 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Plateau
3 Scalding Tarn
Sideboard
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Rest in Peace
2 Red Elemental Blast
The card that sells me most on this build is Thalia. I use her in my goblin build and I find her to be very strong. The card I am least sold on is Leonin due to his two white cast. The deck has another issue in that by adding so many fetches I can see Tomb hurting more than it should. I think it needs tweaking but the mix of Thalia and Enlightened make me intrigued. I want to try this. What do you all think?
Edit: Cards I like in the sideboard
Leonin Abunas
Ethersworn Canonist
Judge's Familiar
Devout Harpist
Mostly Abunas and Canonist jump at me.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
Two red is sometimes hard enough to come up. Two white seems nigh impossible. If you want both destroy target artifact AND enchantment you could try Devout Witness for a jaya like effect, Duergar Hedge-Mage for a Manic Vandal like effect, or Reliquary Monk for something different.
Chrome Mox vs Lotus Petal
I feel this is an apt summary: Chrome Mox is much better if your game plan involves dropping early moons, but introduces more variance into the deck. When Chrome Mox is good, it is better than lotus petal. When Chrome Mox is bad, it is worse than lotus petal. Simple as that. Drew also had a nice line in the op: Petal is essentially a 5th SSG. Many have opted for increased consistency over more explosive turns 1 and 2 with Chrome Mox. It is not incorrect to run Chrome Mox. Your build and play style just need to utilize it.
@jandax- I have moved away from the Chrome Mox but it def still has a place in the deck. A one of basically exactly what you want bc you either want it with a sol land or not at all. With 3 welders the extra moment in the deck will start to have value. I don't run three welders right now. The strongest card in the deck is Blood Moon, then Goblin Welder is a very close second. He is so strong that adding a few cards to maximize his potential is justified I think if you want to go that way. Jack loves him and rightfully so. He is a must kill creature for what he represents.
@Dice- I would cut the plains, add a Plateau, and then cut two fetches. Add in the 4th Ancient Tomb and a great furnace. I would also recommend having another Blood Moon.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
There my actual list (for now, thanks for your recommandation and discution)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
6 Red Fetches
4 Mountain
2 Great Furnace
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Goblin Welder
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker (or Grim Lavamancer)
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Kragan dragon lord
4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Bolt
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
The board
4 leyline of Sanctity
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Martyr of ash
1 phyrexiam methamorph
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Faerie Macabre
2 spellskite
I'll just explain the Kragan, I've found that agains some match up you end up in attrition war without a grindstone into play I that case when both player are on top deck I found that a good beater ofter end up doing the job, in that case Kragan is the best that I had found.
Still debating the Grim or Revoker in the main,
In the board i defenitively want to try the leyline just to see.
Pretty good list, I'd like to question you about a few card choices:
Manabase:
Looks good, but honestly I'd switch the numbers of fetches and basic lands. It's more fine tuning than strategy. There are just more off chances that you'll get wrecked by something off the wall if you run more fetches than basic lands. Honestly, don't worry as much about not having enough shuffle effects for Top. You have fetchlands, Recruiters, and Grindstone to manipulate your library.
As far as your maindeck flex slots:
Kargan is a nice choice, I know why you want to play him. Also consider Figure of Destiny. I run two Revokers main and love it, because in my meta they help in matchups that are more common than not.
Sideboard:
I think that any less than seven blasts in your 75 is an error. It's one of the reasons the deck is powerful, one mana instant-speed Destroy Target Permanent. Six main and one in the side should be good enough, but I run seven main and one in the side. I might even switch them out for the Spellskites because if you're trying to protect your combo, might as well do it with something that has reach in other aspects of the game, no?
Leyline of Sanctity: If you already aggressively mulligan, I see why you'd wanna run it. I did for a little while, and when it is in the opening hand it's golden. But you will more often than not mull into oblivion to find it. If you wanna switch out a flex slot main deck, add another welder and run Witchbane Orb. Sort of clunky at four mana but it does the trick and you don't have to ship otherwise keepable hands to find Leyline {the only reason to run the card}
I'm also a big fan of 4 Bridges. If you do welder stuff, three is acceptable, but again you don't have any library manipulation outside of Tops to find it.
Nitpicking with this deck is all about finding those 0.X% points to give a higher median against a metagame. If you can back up card choices with proven results, then you've likely made the right choice. Running pet cards over real cards is suboptimal.
Isn't Wear // Tear another solid option in that spot, or is there something I'm missing?
You can't tutor for Wear // Tear with Imperial Recruiter
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