Yeah, I get that I should counter the treasure cruise, but for a variety of reasons (much of which is being able to combo against Eldrazi game one and to open up a slot in my S.b.), I still would like to give this a try. The treasure cruise dilemma just pushed the issue over the edge. I've always been a toolbox sort of guy and never wanted to be totally cold to certain strategies. That is probably why I like this deck so much. As for just blasting the t.c. That would be great if I always had an extra 1 or 2 blasts in my hand at all times, but I still have to protect my own combo and sometimes the pieces just aren't there.Originally Posted by sroncor1
So assuming that just not playing the graveyard hate isn't an option, my same questions apply. Thanks.
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Has anyone revisited vexing shusher as anti-counterbalance sideboard tech? Or is that just getting too cute? Between work and a baby I don't have anywhere near enough time to properly test it out. You guys are a life saver to me for keeping my r/w painter up to date.
Ha, funny you should bring up shusher. I decided to try to make room for it in my board as well. Bad news is that it obviously dies to removal pretty easily. Good news is that you can hold it with a blast or two and drop it and blast away counterbalance/jace etc before they get a chance to remove it. I also like it against chalice decks as well as chalice on one can be a pain. It's a little slow and a little fragile but I think is playable and tutorable, which is nice. I haven't actually played with it yet though.
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I don't think Jacks stock list is cold to any one deck. Bridge is a much better all around game plan. If you are looking for an artifact to try as a one of to give the deck reach and adapt then go for EE and add the 8th blast in the board. I really do think you will get more milage from that than gravehate to be honest. Or just say fuck it and run a singleton RIP in the main which I really couldn't argue with right now.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
I brought R/W Painter to the LGS with decent results even without the missing revokers.
R1 U/G Infect
Game 1: Turn 1 Painter and Grindstone. Turn 2 Mill to Win
Game 2: I kept a hand with two painters, three blasts, a mountain, and an ancient tomb. I thought I was in good shape there. He managed to get an inkmoth nexus and infected me to death. He had more blasts and counters than me surprisingly.
Game 3: I can't remember what happened here but I do remember I manage to lock my opponent out on blue with blood moon but I died to necropedes.
R2 Turbo Fog
Game 1: So many howling mines it gave me horrible memories of extended. I dropped a turn 1 blood moon only to find out he ran basics. His howling mines actually found me my combo pieces to let me combo out.
Game 2: I drop painter on turn 1. He has iscron scepter so I counter it. He ended up scooping.
R3 Sneak and Show
Game 1: I go for the turn 1 kill only to see Emakrul. Thank god for main deck bridges he couldn't attack at all. I used Chandra to ping the poor guy to death and trying to fish for an answer.
Game 2: I kept a one land hand with an ensnaring bridge. He goes for the turn 2 SnT and I drop the bridge. I drop my painter down to attempt to blast his griselbrand and in response he digs and blasts my bridge. I attempt to use goblin welder trying to bring ensnaring bridge back to face a surgical extraction. He drops a sneak attacked emakrul and swings for 23.
Game 3: He kept a real odd hand all he had was a single mountain for literally 7 turns. I use my Jaya Ballard to blow it up and he scooped there.
R4 Death and Taxes....I HATE THIS DECK
Game 1: Turn 1 Vial and he just keeps dropping more threats. He keeps plowing my Painters so whenever I grindstone he ends up having some kind of artifact card to stop the milling. My last painter is subjected to a flickerwisp and he swings for 12.
Game 2: I make an error here. I thought I sideboarded out my blood moons but I never did. I was down ot about 4 life when I had helm of obedience. I lose to the power of Jitte here.
My thoughts:
Maindeck bridge is amazing
No burn decks today strangely I saw 4 of them on the tables.
Chandra is worth a shot
Jaya is amazing
I REALLY REALLY need revokers. I'm thinking of cutting a top to add at least one so I can recruit for it.
I still cannot beat death and taxes.
I really didn't miss the cut bolts at all here. A pyroclasm might have made a difference in the DnT match though.
My decklist:
Main Deck (60)
Creatures (16)
2 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Spells (23)
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grindstone
4 Pyroblast
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood Moon
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Lands (21)
1 Great Furnace
1 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
5 Mountain
Sideboard (15)
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Circle of Protection: White
2 Rest in Peace
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Trinisphere
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Koth of the Hammer
4 Leyline of Sanctity
DnT is definitely winnable. It seems in your G1 the guy nutdrew you out of the game, and that's Magic. Bridge is key in this matchup. You have to play a different game, one where you try to Welder and Jaya before you play Painters. It's best to have the combo in hand and just wait until they either tap out or you have the mana and a Blast as backup to drop the combo and go off in the same turn. Blood Moon is still important so don't cut all of them. I'd leave Magus in as he would potentially eat a StP. The grand overview of the matchup, at least in my experience, is that Painter has inevitability because DnT dies on the spot to our two card combo. Therefore, to achieve that inevitability you have to play the deck as a mono red control deck. Painter/blasts, Welder shenanigans, Ensnaring Bridge, Revoker on X, the deck is full of must-deal-with cards. And when they've exhausted their interactive resources, you have in the meantime bought enough time to see enough cards in your deck to have the mana out and combo in hand. You see your window and go for it. I'll say that boarding in the RiPHelm combo is also legit because they can miss on their Revokers, and you can steal a relevant creature just firing off a Helm activation. I personally like Viashino Heretic for this matchup. He generally uses up one of their StP's like a grenade jumper. Otheriwse he eats their equipment and Revokers and Vials. This is why they can't have nice things.
You can definitely win the matchup, Painter has strengths in DnT's weaknesses; die outright to the combo, must attack to win the game (weak to bridge), small critters that die to sweepers/Firebolt, must deal with lots of your permanents, slowed down by blood moon.
As Jandax said, I just wanted to confirm that leaving in some number of Blood Moons (I usually cut Magus and the 4th Moon) against Death and Taxes is something that has worked for me. The card isn't the autowin that it is against a lot of match ups, but it serves a really valuable defensive role, and allows you to develop the board into controlling long game, instead of keeping the game in the first few turns to their advantage by allowing them to Port and Wasteland you.
I also play Blood Moon defensively against Miracles, usually keeping in 2 or 3, as it shuts off their fetches and therefore makes Top worse, and sometimes you can keep them off double white/entreat for quite a while if you slam it early. They will rarely counter it, unless they've played the matchup a lot before. Also, Miracles has a really rough time beating Ensnaring Bridge outside of Wear/Tear (which has numerous other important targets), even though that card might seem terrible here, because it often forces them to try and kill you with Jace, which we have 6-8 answers to minimally after board, so I leave in bridges. Strangely enough, I think Painter has inevitability in this match up in the long game either through combo or natural grind or Koth/Jaya, provided they can't surprise you with Entreat, and you play around Counterbalance/Top by resolving Grindstones early, and attempt to counter Jace and Counterbalance.
So I took the deck to a 6 round GPT for NJ today.
Decklist
Creature [17]
4 Painter's Servant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Goblin Welder
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Instant [8]
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Enlightened Tutor
Artifact [11]
2 Lotus Petal
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grindstone
Planeswalkers [1]
Chandra, Pyromaster
Enchantment [4]
4 Blood Moon
Land [19]
4 Mountain
1 Great Furnace
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
Sideboard (15)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Manic Vandal
3 Lightning Bolt - neither store I tried had firebolts, though I was planning to use lightning bolt anyway
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Rest in Peace
1 Koth of the Hammer
RD 1 - Punishing Maverick
It's my friend and I know his 75 pretty well. We decided to prize split but play it out. His manabase is super greedy and I feel bad but I'm looking forward to blood mooning him. He starts with fetching for a forest into a deathrite shaman I play a turn one revoker and name deathrite. He casts GSZ for a dryad arbor. I cast blood moon. He plays scavenging ooze, I play painter and reb his forest knowing it is the only basic in his deck and he concedes. Game two he starts with deathrite again so I bolt it. He then plays noble heirarch so I play revoker and name it. He taps out to GSZ for Quasali Pridemage so I untap and play both combo pieces and kill him.
1-0
RD 2 - Burn
I'm pretty upset because I know my opponent is on burn but luckily I grab a hand with the combo pieces, a reb and no blood moon game one. He kept a one land hand. I reb'd him trying to bolt my painter and he dies. Game 2 I did about 8 damage to myself with ancient tomb and hadn't brought manic vandal in for his pithing needle...whoops. Game three is tense. I bolt his swiftspear and he follows it up with eidolon followed by sulfiric vortex. I sat and stared at the grindstone in my hand wishing I had it earlier. Do all the math and hope. I jam welder and painter. He kills the painter in response to me trying to win. I weld it back in and he's tapped out so I get it.
2-0
Rd 3 - Elves
I don't hide anything game one and go turn 1 mountain grindstone go. He fetches for a forest and plays DRS so I put him on elves. I play painter's servant and pass turn, he does what he can to win. He doesn't get there. I untap and kill him. game 2 I have the combo assembled on turn 2 again, he digs like crazy and passes. I don't have three mana so I have to reluctantly ship back wondering if I made a mistake but assuming either of my first three draws were lands it would have been fine he rec sages something the grindstone and I die inside. He casts craterfhoof and I reb it, he then proceeds to just beat me down with his army anyway. Game three I don't think I do anything relevant on one, he plays a dude and I bolt it, do nothing too relevant and pass, he plays two dudes, I bolt one, he does nothing much and I think I revoke something and play painter? He casts gsz for 3 and I reb it, untap and win
RD - 4 - Stiflenaught...no, really. I swear.
Winner of this game gets to double draw into the top 8. Game one he casts a delver on turn one, and attacks me a few times, I set the combo up, he forces, I reb. I go for it during his upkeep after a delver trigger shows me a stifle and he has a trickbind. I get attacked, untap and do it again, he dies because he had to fetch away the stifle to pay for trickbind. Game 2 I kept a greedy hand not realizing he played wasteland...also, who really expects to get triple wastelanded by turn 5? Game 3 is where my lack of sleep kicked in. I got in later than I wanted to but it was okay I still had time to get an okay amount of sleep. Some drunk idiots started banging on my door for five minutes until I went to make them leave because they had the wrong apartment then 1-2 hours later they were outside on one of the balconies yelling. So I tapped a city of traitors for mana, played an arid mesa, fetched, and then did whatever I intended to do with that red mana, Reb a pithing needle I think? I get blown out by divert because in my half sleep state I forgot I had two mana floating. My opponent literally bricks for about 7 turns while I make 5 additional misplays, all of which cost me the game, just because of sheer lack of clarity. If I had done any one of those things differently I would have won but I died to young pyro tokens.
3-1
Rd 5 - RUG delver
I was surprised to see this deck. Most people I know think it's in a pretty bad spot right now. I'm super on tilt from the last game and the fact that about ten different people were watching me punt over and over again. I tell myself I'll just turn one blood moon him and it will all be okay. In actuality I kept an awful hand, deserved to get punished and did, I died to a single goyf. In game 2 I actually keep a good hand, get an early rip out and have a recruiter in hand. I'm feeling good. Was not expecting him to krosan grip my RIP, then give his three nimble mongooses threshold once he untapped. I also wasn't expecting the sheer amount of burn, I though some of my creatures might stick around for more than a turn. So I lose but we figure I can still win my next round draw in.
3-2(Oh how the mighty have fallen)
Rd 6 - Miracles
Standings go up and I'm in 11th. With the best or second best breakers in the nine point bracket. Time to earn my way in. I'm facing off against a friend on miracles. He tells me he would concede but our breakers are too close, no biggie. I wasn't back to 100% but I think being against somebody I knew, having more of a break between rounds, and having ha matchup I was more familiar with helped me regain some focus. I don't remember the specifics of the game. I blasted a counterbalance, didn't let him set the lock up and eventually combo kill him. Game 2 we both sideboarded in ways that were incorrect. Neither of us have turn one plays. I wanted to keep REB up for counterbalance which I did counter at some point. I resolved a revoker to name top and it got swords'd. I resolved Koth and tried to hit him with a mountain which got swords'd and then koth got judged by some council. Then I resolve chandra and my opponent laughs at how ridiculous(ly awesome) the deck is and she resolves. I get an ensnaring bridge out for entreat the angels and am starting to feel good about the game. He draws a judgment and is about to get rid of chandra when he realizes he can remove the bridge and kill me with the angels he made the turn after the bridge. Game three was pretty grindy. I got him down to very low life when he casts entreat for 1 and stops the game. I can't attack because my one creature will die but he is at two life with no cards so if he attacks a chandra off the top and a counterattack equal the game. I resolve two ensnaring bridges to help me feel better. Time is called. He has no cards in hand, in play he has lands, a single angel, top, and pithing needle naming grindstone. I have a top, recruiter, two ensnaring bridges, and lands with a pyroblast in hand. We discuss how we planned to play it out from there. I convince him I'm closer to victory though it is admittedly hard to say for sure who would have won. He concedes to me which I appreciate and then I came in tenth on breakers...
My thoughts: Oh my god, I love this deck. If I had proper sleep there's no way I wouldn't have top 8'd where I felt comfortable with the matchups except for perhaps rug delver. UR Treasure cruise delver already seemed less popular today but one 40 person event is not a very good sample size. Overall my experiences with the deck have been good though, my overall record is positive which is a good sign moving forward.
Lost in the finals at our local classic for a piece of power.
R1- Burn 2-1
R2- UWR Delver
R3- Miracles
R4- Dredge
R5- ID
R6- ID
T8- Miracles
T4- Merfolk
Finals- Lose to miracles in the finals (split first place)
Props:
- using chandra pyromaster ultimate
- beating miracles, burn and dredge in very close games
- getting a bunch of cash with painter
The list
9 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Spellskite
2 Chandra Pyromaster
Sideboard:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Viashino Heritic
1 Martyr of Ashes
1 Manic Vandal
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ratchet Bomb
Spellskite was outstanding and the only reason I beat burn.
I wouldn't side out Blood Moon against Miracles. I do side out Magus though. It's actually remarkably effective against them. Jack's primer is great on Miracles. Hold up Blast to counter Counterbalance. Don't be afraid to Blast Plains if the opportunity arises. They're dead without white mana. I'm at about a 65-70% win percentage against Miracles on MODO.
Well I beat it twice although the last one drew quite well (ie always had the council's judgement and counterbalance). I agree though, blood moon is very effective against them.
While I was getting wings with some friends one of them suggested that the deck run grove of the burnwillows and punishing fire. I don't think it would be possible to do this in the r/w version but how do you guys think it would be for the mono-r version? We don't care about giving the opponent life. It would be another way to strengthen the matchup against delver strategies and possibly help with elves. Punishing fire is also a good card to pitch to jaya ballard. SO thoughts?
Grove of the Burnwillows is not fetchable. Also is a non basic land that becomes basic mountain under Blood Moon. I don't believe it's a viable idea.
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Mapson, from my records this is the 2200 post or something on this thread. Although I would expect a review of the first page would be in order. For reasons stated above me and on the first page the punishing fires is not an ideal card for the deck. Moreover, I recently went to the finals with mono red at a large event and actually cut Jaya Ballard from my 75.
I don't want to come across to strongly it's just some of us who have been on here for 1-2 years have heard, had, and discussed a lot of topics. I would trust you carry this maniality forward in the future.
We look forward to more discussion from you, welcome!
I'm going to respond to those two posts in reverse order.
McBain, I did read the first page, it's been a while but it's happened. Before this post however, I did a simple control f on the first page and the only mention of punishing fire being in or not in the deck is a simple blurb to say it was at one point in the deck. Maybe I'm just being dense but I don't see any explanation on the front page of why this card is not good in the deck. Perhaps I would find something more if I read through the 110 pages but I'll admit I didn't feel like spending that much time on it. Also I have no clue what "maniality " and it doesn't seem to be in the dictionary. Also, somebody just asked about replacing firebolt with lightning bolt so I assumed this would be a reasonable question.
As for the grove not being fetchable, I don't think that is a particularly big loss. Of course it eats up some of the land slots but that is why I was thinking it could be in the mono-R version since it runs more lands. I get that it turns into a basic mountain under blood moon but if you don't have the blood moon out, isn't punishing fire just a better lightning/firebolt for the deck due to how repeatable it is. And then even when blood moon comes online you basically have an instant speed firebolt for one more. Sure, there's no repeated use out of it but a lot of people are already playing lightning bolt which doesn't have flashback. While the instant speed isn't too important that still sounds okay to me. Also, while I can see an argument for cutting jaya as she is very slow I love that card for personal reasons and will not be cutting it any time soon so it's still a consideration for me.
I'm not saying that the idea is right or necessarily what the deck wants but I think it could be a solid idea, especially with the advent of the UR treasure cruise delver decks where blood moon is really bad and this hits every creature. I would really appreciate more thoughts, or at least better explanations for why I'm wrong.
OK let's discuss it again.
But first you must explain us, why you need a card that deals 2 or 3 damage to a single target. What do you afraid so much?
You have 17-19 creature that can block. You have Ensnaring Bridges that can stop them. For non attacking creatures that causes problems like Mother if Ruin, Deathrite Shaman... you have Phyrexian Revoker. Not to mention Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast that can destroy anything on the board if Painter is in play. The same for Jaya Ballard. But the most important, you don't win dealing damage. You play combo.
For all these reasons above, add my previous two. Burnwillows is not fetchable, and this is a problem because you can't find it the time you need it, and has no synergy with Blood Moons that can be cast in 1st turn. Blood Moons are more important than Burnwillows, don't you agree?
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Last edited by MeddlingMageGR; 10-21-2014 at 03:11 AM.
Firebolt does what Grove/Fires does and it doesn't fuck with Painter's mana base. And it's one card, not another combo. And you can choose not to side it in, while the Grove/Fires are getting starting slots and you have to play most of the time. It's just not doing what the deck wants when better options are out there.
I don't think looking at other splashes is a bad idea, but I think the question people need to ask why is Groove better than the white splash. Losing E tutor is a huge loss and I really do think that it has been established that a white splash is superior to a mono red build in a general meta( ie playing at a major event). So if you are losing the versatility and consistency of that build, which uses Firebolt, does the possibility of 3-4 uses of Punishing Fires make that much of a difference. I will agree in the greater plan, the life gain doesn't really matter, but sometimes you are just swinging and the 4-5 life over a game may make hat difficult in those games where you can't/don't combo. Along those lines I also think cutting Jaya is a huge mistake. Having a tutorable catch all is huge and I have yet to see a credible argument as to why it should be cut.
My advice to everyone is take the experience of those who have spent the most time with the deck. Nobody is going to reinvent the wheel with this deck I promise. I know everyone wants to tinker and put their own stamp on the deck but it isn't going to happen. Everyone would be better served playing the deck instead of making changes. The biggest change to the check has been the addition of 4 Firebolts( which is still superior to Lightning Bolt) and that was 2 years ago. The deck is already finely tuned. I know nobody listens to me anymore but I promise if you do you will go further with the deck.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
It's not terrible to fine tune some slots if the reasoning behind it is sound and/or based on testing. I think people in general appreciate too much of a "solved" decklist. I tend to think that there is no universally best decklist, because decks only work when interacting with other decks. You will never know what you are against in your tournament and what are the exact lists they are playing. Therefore you can't say if some decklist with one different slot to another list is objectively better or worse. I always say that there is a best deck fo every tournament out there but in larger context it get's a lot more difficult.
There's even a huge downside in playing with an established list: everybody knows your deck card by card.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
I think most of the points RE: Punishing Fire/Burnwillows have been addressed, but if you take a look at the possible benefits of Lightning Bolt over Firebolt, and vice versa, I think you'll find that either would be better. Lightning Bolt is 3 damage and an instant (relevant against Swiftspear, perhaps the biggest reason to consider it) and a perfectly acceptable turn 1 play for removal on the play or the draw vs any deck with turn 1 creatures. Firebolt is repeatable, and card advantage, and kills everything else we care about with virtually no problems, but is sorcery speed, so it may be less mana efficient early on. Punishing Fire is more expensive than either, cannot deal with Swiftspear on the opponent's turn particularly effectively if they have any instants to cast, and will be hard to repeat as it is a two card combo in a deck with few ways to find or use Grove, and cannot abuse it at all when Blood Moon is in play. I will grant that Blood Moon will not often be in play against the U/R Swiftspear decks we see now, however Fires is still not good at killing that creature.
Green splash would be sweet for Reclamation Sage/Krosan Grip etc., but I don't think that Punishing Fire/Grove is the way to go about doing that, and I'm not sure it'd be better than white splash or monored anyway. If you do want to try it, let us know though, those are just my thoughts on it.
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