[Deck] Imperial Painter

[CptHaddock]

So I ended up going to a local event this this Saturday as well. Swiss was great with the matches being 2-1 dredge, 2-0 UR delver, 2-0 d&t, 2-1 bug control (not shardless) and an ID with junk maverick putting me as the top seed. Top 8 I ended up losing 1-2 to grixis delver first round. My maindeck was pretty stock and close to what Jack has on the front page, the only thing different was my sideboard.

2 firebolt
2 pyrokinesis
1 duergar hedge-Mage
2 koth
1 red elemental blast
1 ethersworn canonist
1 enlightened tutor
1 crypt
1 rip
1 thorn of amethyst
1 trinisphere
1 sulfur elemental (Holy shit did this card pull it's weight during the d&t matchup.)


Do you guys feel like grixis delver is favorable matchup? Out of all the delver matchups it feels like the worst, if you answer 1 thing they always have something else that is taking over the game. Blood moon also doesn't entirely lock them out of the game, and they seem to have a good lot of options postboard. I have played this a dozen times and when I win it always feel like I win by the skin of my teeth. Do you guys have any advice for this matchup? Is there anything besides sphere of law that I could put in my sideboard to help out this matchup? I'm already running EE in the main so ideally I have recurrable answer to the tokens/delver.

[mcbain]

Grixis delver is a decent matchup so long as you go slow. Playing slower, developing your mana is the best way to put yourself in a favourable position to win the matchup. Yes, bloodmoon doesn't 1 shot them, but it's close enough.

One other thing I tend to do is save the removal for after my bombs. Once they are done dazing, force of willing etc just wipe their team with a Pyrokinesis or drop a bridge. An active top can go a long way in this matchup.


On a another note, I'm getting pretty tired of the miracles matchup on mtgo already. Regardless if I push for a fast combo or draw the game out and bridge-koth, it always feels miserable. They are always able to go toe to toe with you then dig themselves out of a hole faster/better then you.

One final note:

I have been quite impressed with pia and Kiran nahar as a one of in the main. The saç ability just take over a game if not dealt with. Also the clock you add to the board is impressive, they almost feel like a pseudo mentor.

But ya, that miracles matchup.

I have been a fan of rest in peace, koth, red blast, hedgemage, and jaya as a board in against them.



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[SDBobPlissken]

Grixis delver is a decent matchup so long as you go slow. Playing slower, developing your mana is the best way to put yourself in a favourable position to win the matchup. Yes, bloodmoon doesn't 1 shot them, but it's close enough.

One other thing I tend to do is save the removal for after my bombs. Once they are done dazing, force of willing etc just wipe their team with a Pyrokinesis or drop a bridge. An active top can go a long way in this matchup.


On a another note, I'm getting pretty tired of the miracles matchup on mtgo already. Regardless if I push for a fast combo or draw the game out and bridge-koth, it always feels miserable. They are always able to go toe to toe with you then dig themselves out of a hole faster/better then you.

One final note:

I have been quite impressed with pia and Kiran nahar as a one of in the main. The saç ability just take over a game if not dealt with. Also the clock you add to the board is impressive, they almost feel like a pseudo mentor.

But ya, that miracles matchup.

I have been a fan of rest in peace, koth, red blast, hedgemage, and jaya as a board in against them.



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I hear ya on miracles. I'm sick of losing to it. I feel like I only win when I'm able to get a fast combo through removal or if I can resolve a turn one moon and they only have nonbasics in hand. If I wasn't so interested in trying nahiri harbinger I was considering switching to goblins just so I can have a better matchup against miracles.

[mcbain]

In large 50+ tournaments I have lost to miracles more than most other decks put together. At GP Seattle my two key losses were both close miracles games.

Between the ware-tare, snap caster, Swords, teminus, and all the other garbage it's hard to push through.

You typically have to be the beat down in the matchup simply because you will lose if they are allowed to just make land drops. Futhermore if you try to sit back and play the control you will end up on the wrong side of a mentor in a hurry.

Anyone had luck with certain cards or styles?

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[LeoCop 90]

People have different opinions on this matter, but In my experience landing a blood moon is key against miracles. I lost few games with an early moon effect, because either they are color screwed or they are severely punished because they can't shuffle their deck.

[ravenklath]

Here is my list that I promised.
2 Bridge
2 Tops
4 Grindstone
3 Petals
4 Blood Moons
3 REB
4 Pyro
2 E. Tutor
1 Jaya
2 Monkey
4 Recruiter
1 spellskite
3 Welder
1 Revoker
4 Painters
1 Daretti (was really good All day)
2 Plateau
5 Red Fetches
1 Great Furnace
4 Mountain
3 City's
4 Tomb
SB
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Hedge-mage
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Sphere of Law
1 Warmth
1 RIP
1 Ethersworn
1 Thorn
1 Graffdiggers Cage
2 Firebolt
1 E Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt

[mcbain]

I have been impressed with daretti whenever I play him. If you have a welder in play already it feels like your playing a game of edh with the amount of durdling you do.

Jack and Seth have long advocated and reminded people that painter, particularly the shortcake version, is a combo deck at heart - anything to the contrary is something best reserved for the sideboard (or not at all). I count myself among them. That being said I believe 1 synergistic planeswalker is an excellent addition to the deck. On many occasions a painter player will find themselves across the table from a semi-locked out opponent, which is the perfect spot for a walker like daretti or the new nahiri to walk away with the game. Moreover, these planeswalkers themselves advanced the combo plan in some regard on their own.

While traditionally some painter mages have slotted chandra or koth into the maindeck I would argue this style of game play is better suited to the mono red bridge build which acts more as a prison deck.

All this is to say, anyone who hasn't tried daretti should. Although you can go a whole tourney with never seeing him. In addition, the new red white nahiri is worth some heavy playtesting.

PS - Still hate that miracles matchup.

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[ravenklath]

Mcbain,
I typically dont mind playing against miracles. The one that frequents my shop though uses 2 Councils judgements in his Main Deck still. Which many do not even play the card anymore. I personally have always liked having a utility walker in my list. I have been on a single daretti in the 75 since he came out even in the times of UR Treasure Cruise. I agree that Koth and Chandra are more suited for the Mono Red list which i also enjoy playing. I wish i could have played the Wasteland Version this last weekend. But once i acquire new Wastelands i will be able to test that out.

[CptHaddock]

I ended up going to the weekly legacy tournament that happen locally. The tournament was streamed and you can see me play the final round really poorly here. I played against miracles 3 times and ended up going 0-2, 0-2 and 0-2. On the plus side though I tried the RIP strategy that mcbain suggested and it was pretty fantastic, at the end of each game my opponents showed me a fistful of snapcasters that would have probably ended the games a lot sooner. It feels like if you are bringing in RIP against miracles, you should also bring in helm and be a little more dedicated to the combo with your sideboard. Have any of you had much success with the RIP/Helm transformational sideboard?

[jandax]

If your grindstones aren't getting the combo done in your meta game, then rip-helm had been a good plan b for a while. Not the worst package to have in your side board.

[LeoCop 90]

Looks like jack is in eric froelich's article on channelfireball :)
also, LED main deck and chandra flamecaller in sideboard

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...egacy-painter/

[zangoasyl]

Looks like jack is in eric froelich's article on channelfireball :)
also, LED main deck and chandra flamecaller in sideboard

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...egacy-painter/

Jack, I suppose Chandra was your tribute to miracles, but 6 mana seems really really tough. How did it perform overall?

[Kap'n Cook]

Jack, I suppose Chandra was your tribute to miracles, but 6 mana seems really really tough. How did it perform overall?

I've just been experimenting with random things since I plan on trying out nahiri in some fashion and wanted to try out other walkers until it gets released online. Chandra was really good the game I had it against shardless and completely wrecked. I only ran it for a few matches because I thought 6 mana would be too hard. I've since been using 2 ajani. I like the control aspect as compared to koth, but its still a toss-up. We'll see how nahiri plays

[drude1]

I've just been experimenting with random things since I plan on trying out nahiri in some fashion and wanted to try out other walkers until it gets released online. Chandra was really good the game I had it against shardless and completely wrecked. I only ran it for a few matches because I thought 6 mana would be too hard. I've since been using 2 ajani. I like the control aspect as compared to koth, but its still a toss-up. We'll see how nahiri plays

So have you been experimenting with Nahiri at all yet? I can't decide if it's main deck worthy it comes in against decks like Miracles. It's effects are generally very good but like any Planeswalker, it sometimes feels a little slow.
I'm also playing with one LED in the board again. The card is really good at expediting victory and has great synergy with recruiter, welder and sometimes even bridge. It certainly comes out in some MUs but it just steals games in situations we have no business winning.

[phoenix4]

Well, sometimes the miracles players just have the hand, that says SDT->Counterbalance and there's nothing you can do about it.

But as far as I as a monoR player goes, I think it's a 55-60% MU in our favor. As long as you can use the blasts aggressively and they don't have all the counters for it, well..... :D

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

If you say that Miracles is a good match-up, you've played only against bad players of the deck. There are a lot of worst match-ups, but Miracles isn't easy.

[Mapson]

I guarantee you I have played against good miracles players, and I feel ok about the matchup. It's certainly not the best for us. But I've won more than I've lost in an area where we have plenty of good miracles players. I think it's harder if they are running mentor but still just have to know what you're doing.

[SDBobPlissken]

Well, sometimes the miracles players just have the hand, that says SDT->Counterbalance and there's nothing you can do about it.

But as far as I as a monoR player goes, I think it's a 55-60% MU in our favor. As long as you can use the blasts aggressively and they don't have all the counters for it, well..... :D

What is your mono red list? I've always switched back and forth between the two and the new nahiri has been motivating me to stay with shortcake. I would say that miracles is by far one of the toughest match ups for me. I'd actually almost rather play burn just because at least it will be a quick death lol. My meta has really good miracles players, but maybe I'm not attacking it right. What is your method of approach? If you have a choice to play your grindstone or top on turn 1 which one do you play? If you have a sol land would you play both turn 1 on the play? After board would you bring in rip to shut down snapcaster Mage? How many moons if any do you board out? Do you bring in all the burn for mentor? If they have a top out and you don't have one would you revoker theirs or just name jace off the bat? How many bridges if any do you keep in post board? Are a majority of your wins against miracles through combo or dork beat down? Do you blast ponders and brainstorms. I usually let the ponder slide but I'll blast the brainstorms this way they can't put a miracle card from their hand on top of their library. Sorry for all the questions. I just feel like I have tried everything against miracles and still have a terrible record something like 20% to 80% and the wins I do get are because I probably got lucky, beat them down after they fetched way too many times, or surprised them with a combo activation in response to their stp using spirit guides or they tap out because they see I don't have enough for an activation but i had led.

[Morcrux]

@SDBoBPlissken

I'm running shortcake and have about 60% winchance against the better miracle players in my area. My plays probably aren't perfect, but I can share my experiences about your questions:

• From a tomb with stone and top I would play top with activation, unless you got Painter and more sol on hand. Then I'd play both, leading with stone.
  
  
• I usually brought in RiP before, but they always asked my why since our Welders are more significant (some even sided their snaps out and own Rips in). I agree to this, and haven't sided RiP for a long time, and probably won't anytime soon. Note that I play 3 Welder tho.
  
  
• About bridges and burn, it depends on what version they're on and what burn you're packing. Against Legend Miracles or Mentor Miracles, I'd keep bridges in and add all burn. Against "normal" miracles (most common), I'd side out bridges, but only if you got something better to side in or worse cards to side out. If you got Lightning Bolt/ Pyrokinesis/Sudden Shock, bring it. If Firebolt, don't.
  It's a bit similiar with Moons, I'd keep them all against Legends, but side out 2-3 against "normal". Not too sure with Mentor version, some of them run really greedy bases, so you should take count of their duals during game 1.
  
  
• For blasts, there's a lot of discussion when to blast cantrips and when not to. Usually I like to save blasts for their actual threats (Counterbalance, Jace, eventually FoW) rather than what finds them. I do blast their cantrip if they're really low on card count or I got plenty blasts late in game, but I know some like to be aggressive and blast them even more often. I think both styles got their good arguments, so I'd say follow your gut on this.

The games in general tend to be either very very fast with combo, or very grindy, and we actually grind better than them if we got our top. As long as you can blast their early counterbalances and they don't drop an early Mentor you can't answer, you got a pretty good chance of winning. Threaten combos asap, but don't waste a blast for protection unless its their last card or white mana open. Let the painter go, find a new one, and do it again. Eventually they'll have none or just one answer, while you have blasts and more gas. At least always always have a blast ready for counterbalance.

[GundamGuy]

What is your mono red list? I've always switched back and forth between the two and the new nahiri has been motivating me to stay with shortcake. I would say that miracles is by far one of the toughest match ups for me. I'd actually almost rather play burn just because at least it will be a quick death lol. My meta has really good miracles players, but maybe I'm not attacking it right. What is your method of approach? If you have a choice to play your grindstone or top on turn 1 which one do you play? If you have a sol land would you play both turn 1 on the play? After board would you bring in rip to shut down snapcaster Mage? How many moons if any do you board out? Do you bring in all the burn for mentor? If they have a top out and you don't have one would you revoker theirs or just name jace off the bat? How many bridges if any do you keep in post board? Are a majority of your wins against miracles through combo or dork beat down? Do you blast ponders and brainstorms. I usually let the ponder slide but I'll blast the brainstorms this way they can't put a miracle card from their hand on top of their library. Sorry for all the questions. I just feel like I have tried everything against miracles and still have a terrible record something like 20% to 80% and the wins I do get are because I probably got lucky, beat them down after they fetched way too many times, or surprised them with a combo activation in response to their stp using spirit guides or they tap out because they see I don't have enough for an activation but i had led.

Morcrux provided some great answers.

I'll give my 2 cents on some of them plus a bit more on things he didn't touch.

If you have a choice to play your grindstone or top on turn 1... Is this game one vs. unknown or Game 2 vs. Miracles? Are you on the Play or the Draw? IMO sticking that Grindstone is more important vs. Miracles since they have the possibility of locking down your CMC 1 spells, they also don't have that many ways to remove it... they have more post board, but it's not a ton. I know you want to land a top to grind the game out... but IMO Top is far more important to Miracles game plan then it is to ours. I've revoked Top even when I've had my own Top out... I've revoked top in matches where only I had a Top in play... and still won. Naming Jace with Revoker is wrong. You've got Red Elemental Blasts Effects out the wazoo, Jace can't break up the combo, and really isn't a huge threat to us. The only miracles card I'd be worried about is Entreat (Terminus is really weak vs. our deck... it can disrupt the combo but it just puts things where Recruiter can get them) and even then it's not too bad because you should have access to ratchet bomb or engineered explosives... so I'm not sure It's worth fighting over Brainstorms... Prudent REB effect usage and Revoker usage seems to be the keys to winning this matchup.