[Deck] Imperial Painter

[drude1]

@erevans444
The problem with Gamble is that it's a bad card. In Painter, you'd go hellbent quite a bit, so Gamble is only usefu if you have an active Welder and an artifact in the field. Without SDT, Welder lost a lot more value, so it's not a card I more than two copies of in my 75. If I were to play a card that creates a card disadvantage, I'd rather splash white for E. Tutor. I think Magma Jet or Smuggler's Copter are better than Gamble since they have other utility. I would only play one copy of Smuggler's Copter at most though. I can see myself playing two Magma Jets. I might try something like this:

22 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
14 Mountain

16 Creatures
1 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Simian Spirit Guide

22 Spells
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Blood Moon
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

No reason to play fetch lands anymore. Just a much more streamlined build. Grindstones are pretty much useless in multiples now without SDT. May as well throw them with P&K. Up to 14 Mountains to be less affected by variance, which was partly mitigated by SDT.

I'm not saying this to be contradictory, but I pretty much disagree with the majority of this post. Well, I would agree that a mono-red list doesn't need fetch lands any more. I think any splash deserves fetches. As for goblin welder, I am putting much more weight on that card for a couple reasons. First, although I agree that welder isn't as good without top, the whole deck isn't as good without top. With welder you can use grindstone as a draw engine. I also think gamble is a reasonable card with that thought in mind. If you build an artifact heavy deck, gamble can be quite good. I've been testing it a little and in the early turns it can find you a blood moon and hopefully in the late game it becomes a tutor. Yes, there will be situations where the card can go dead, but in my r/b version of the deck with 4 welders and daretti's, gamble isn't bad. Having said that, etutor is also viable but I would combine it with some sore of draw spell. I think pyrite spellbomb could be decent as it is creature (ie. deathrite) removal and can act as a draw engine, especially when you can weld them back and cycle redundant artifacts. Welder also still protects your combo and, as it's more difficult now to find redundant pieces, that is even more important. If I were playing r/w right now, I would probably play a welder/grindstone, bomberman dual combo, as most of the bomberman combo lends itself well to the deck in general. Maybe something like this:


// Lands
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [MR] Great Furnace
3 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [B] Plateau
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [ZEN] Mountain (3a)
1 [BFZ] Plains (4F)

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
3 [UL] Goblin Welder
1 [MMA] Auriok Salvagers

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
4 [IA] Pyroblast
4 [CH] Blood Moon
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
3 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
3 [TE] Lotus Petal
2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
1 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [SOM] Mox Opal
3 [MMA] Pyrite Spellbomb

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [KLD] Chandra, Torch of Defiance
SB: 1 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 1 [MMA] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [M15] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [C15] Fiery Confluence
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [EVE] Duergar Hedge-Mage
SB: 1 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 3 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity


As of right now, I am concentrating on b/r painter and have been doing very well with it. Just today I am 4-0 so far. The deck is all gas, so I think opponents tend to feel overwhelmed. I would also say 3-4 welders are a must, if nothing else to draw out removal. As an aside, the new fat eldrazi deck is real and I would definitely have a plan for it, as it totally wrecks us if they go unmolested. In r/b, slaughter games is a good answer. I would otherwise seriously consider playing Jester's cap or something to go get their Ulamogs out of the deck. Without those and with a bridge on the field, I don't think they can win.

[L10]

@GundamGuy
Yeah, I was thinking more in the lines of comparing Commune with Lava with the opportunity costs of playing other bombs. Chandra was the only card I listed that plays in a similar axis to Commune with Lava.

@drude1
To be fair, my response to erevans444 was specifically about his mono-red list and how the mono-red archetype should proceed. I don't disagree with you given the context of other potential builds.

[sroncor1]

@ Gundam- Rock style (traditional GB) where always a tough match up for painter. Granted there are various builds, but most typically ran mox diamonds and you had to resolve a Moon on turn one on the draw to really have it stick. The advent of Decay, and DRS really makes the all in on the Moon less strong these days against that deck. The key being BUG style decks, which play much differently are easily disrupted by Moon effects.

I am confused about your Goblins analogy there. My point breaking down the issue with DRS is the fact that we have no idea what will shake out. The card is very strong and some of the decks that it fits nicely in are traditionally bad for painter. I do not know if any of them would rise to the top with the changing meta. DRS may not even be a large player moving forward but I do think it needs to be on our radar.

I do not think SFM is in the same ballpark though. DRS ability to disrupt of lock pieces (Moon effects) along with disrupt Welder recursion is a level of disruption that SFM could never do. The worst thing SFM does is tutor up jitte and then equip and swing. It take three turns with 6 mana invested to actively start to disrupt what we are doing. Once our opponent untaps with DRS, they can actively disrupt multiple things our deck does.

The issue with SDT possibly being better for other decks than it was for painter is not the key to understanding why the banning could be really harmful for Painter. Looking at it like that is fairly myopic. Yes painter loses selection and filtering. And yes the card did more in Miracles. But the issue is that Miracles was a favorable match up. By it losing space in the meta something will take its place. The "what" is unclear at this point, but as it stands Painter lost some internal consistency and one of its better match ups in the format. It is for those two reasons that the banning is fairly harmful for Painter. Now it is possible BUG and non burn based Delver variants proliferate and Painter's standing within the format improves, but it is too early to tell at this point.

@drude- It will be interesting to see what Welder can do in the new meta. Jack and I were talking about him, as his value could really increase if DRS doesn't explode. I do think the doom and gloom online is mostly just people talking out their ass at this point but it is something to be mindful of. But I do think a heavy Welder list could be really viable, although I am not sure I would run the Salvager combo. Probably try something with robots and utility looking to grind value over the game like old vintage lists tried, instead of win on the spot, but it could be the direction we need to take.

Seth

[GundamGuy]

@ Gundam- Rock style (traditional GB) where always a tough match up for painter. Granted there are various builds, but most typically ran mox diamonds and you had to resolve a Moon on turn one on the draw to really have it stick. The advent of Decay, and DRS really makes the all in on the Moon less strong these days against that deck. The key being BUG style decks, which play much differently are easily disrupted by Moon effects.

I am confused about your Goblins analogy there. My point breaking down the issue with DRS is the fact that we have no idea what will shake out. The card is very strong and some of the decks that it fits nicely in are traditionally bad for painter. I do not know if any of them would rise to the top with the changing meta. DRS may not even be a large player moving forward but I do think it needs to be on our radar.

I do not think SFM is in the same ballpark though. DRS ability to disrupt of lock pieces (Moon effects) along with disrupt Welder recursion is a level of disruption that SFM could never do. The worst thing SFM does is tutor up jitte and then equip and swing. It take three turns with 6 mana invested to actively start to disrupt what we are doing. Once our opponent untaps with DRS, they can actively disrupt multiple things our deck does.

The issue with SDT possibly being better for other decks than it was for painter is not the key to understanding why the banning could be really harmful for Painter. Looking at it like that is fairly myopic. Yes painter loses selection and filtering. And yes the card did more in Miracles. But the issue is that Miracles was a favorable match up. By it losing space in the meta something will take its place. The "what" is unclear at this point, but as it stands Painter lost some internal consistency and one of its better match ups in the format. It is for those two reasons that the banning is fairly harmful for Painter. Now it is possible BUG and non burn based Delver variants proliferate and Painter's standing within the format improves, but it is too early to tell at this point.

@drude- It will be interesting to see what Welder can do in the new meta. Jack and I were talking about him, as his value could really increase if DRS doesn't explode. I do think the doom and gloom online is mostly just people talking out their ass at this point but it is something to be mindful of. But I do think a heavy Welder list could be really viable, although I am not sure I would run the Salvager combo. Probably try something with robots and utility looking to grind value over the game like old vintage lists tried, instead of win on the spot, but it could be the direction we need to take.

Seth

My guess is that BUG and RUG and some form of Stone-blade become the standard bearers for now. But as you said, this is just a guess and TBD. Pretty sure Rock Style decks are as dead as Merfolk and Goblins... maybe not though...

Yes SFM doesn't interact with our deck (Jitte but you mentioned that), but it's still a dangerous card that powers a deck that we are likely going to be seeing a lot more of... and if I recall correctly from 3-4 years ago when Stoneblade was more widely played that deck was no pushover for Painter. They could deal with our threats and do a good job of controlling the game.

I'm thinking about a list... I'll see about putting one up tomorrow...

[mcbain]

I agree largely with all of Seth's points.

IMO black red, mono red, or RWB are all potential options -heck even something more akin to vintage painter might be in order (dark fayden anyone).


Potential brews:

- (combo control, UR(b)) dack fayden, welder, trinket mage, less grindstones, no blood moon

- (jam it with card advantage, BR) dark confidant engine with very low cmc outside of 2 chandra/4 bloodmoon

- (glass cannon, RW) shortcake with more enlightened tutors

- (7/10, BR) goblin welder, faithless looting, entomb, sundering titan, animate dead, blood moon

- (prison, R) Moons, bridges, planeswalker pillowfort

[pettdan]

Kolaghan's Command seems good too in a list splashing black with a focus on Welder and reanimation: getting back Painter/Welder from the graveyard, destroying Deathrite/Chalice/Jitte, and discarding stuff in instant speed for Welder suprises. Good for general grindiness, redundancy in combo elements and to remove opposing threats/answers. I remember playing Kolaghan's C. back when Omnishow was the thing [with a black splash] to enable Slaughter Games in the board, it seemed great then.

[Vicar in a tutu]

Do you guys think there might be a new version of this deck in which Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast can be see play?

[CptHaddock]

Do you guys think there might be a new version of this deck in which Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast can be see play?

Rb is already kind of a thing, if it becomes more viable i'm sure that Daretti will find his home there.

[Milo687]

Do you guys think there might be a new version of this deck in which Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast can be see play?

I have been toying around with br online since the b&r change and DII is a power house. Destroys troublesome artifacts(chalice, pithing needle, nulrod etc) and creatures. As well as providing welder fodder. I ultimated him once for 3 bridges. He seems very good.

I have a local tourney this evening where I will be playing RB painter. I will post a report when I get home. (10:30 pm PST)

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[Valleysdai]

I agree largely with all of Seth's points.

IMO black red, mono red, or RWB are all potential options -heck even something more akin to vintage painter might be in order (dark fayden anyone).


Potential brews:

- (combo control, UR(b)) dack fayden, welder, trinket mage, less grindstones, no blood moon

- (jam it with card advantage, BR) dark confidant engine with very low cmc outside of 2 chandra/4 bloodmoon

- (glass cannon, RW) shortcake with more enlightened tutors

- (7/10, BR) goblin welder, faithless looting, entomb, sundering titan, animate dead, blood moon

- (prison, R) Moons, bridges, planeswalker pillowfort

I've made a different version of RW, it's a toolbox version. When I know what my opponent is on I search for the relevant pieces.

[GundamGuy]

- (prison, R) Moons, bridges, planeswalker pillowfort

If it's not clear already, I am focusing on going back to Painter Circa 2013 and I'm not sure how viable those other deck options are for various reasons.

Reasons: How good is reanimation going to be in a format full of DRS? How good is a "control" deck that has 8+ slots taken by Combo / Tutor Cards (not including Grindstone). If we have to cut Imperial Recruiter to run Dark Confident is that actually better?

[Ish]

Just my 2 cents here... Not blasting anyone, nor preaching. But I think this is starting to go off the rails.

If you guys are going to start discussing URx, UBx builds of this deck you're in the wrong section. Painter Stone is already a well established deck. It is completely different than the R and Rw variant of painter.

My suggestion is not to clog this forum up with how to turn Rw R imperial painter into another deck. That's already been done.

Cards like Dack, Intuition, transmute artifact, Tezz, Deretti, even saheli, have all seen play in Painter Stone. They don't belong anywhere near Imperial Painter variants.


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[sroncor1]

Ish has a point that the thread should try and not devolve into some of the other painter variants. But I do not think that trying Intuition as the tutor of choice fundamentally changes I Painter. Most lists were already running three E tutor so swapping out those adding in 4 Intuition and then 2 Goblin Welder to replace the lost SDT and changing to R/U duals is essentially the same deck. It just changed its tutor/end game package to a variant. It still should live on Blood Moon and efficient combos with some grinding elements. Now saying this I have no idea if that deck is even good, too slow, or just dead to the format. But in general that would still be Imperial Painter I think.

Seth

[Ish]

Where I agree that splashing a color to adjust post SDT I caution that it quickly evolves into another deck when looking at blue.

I have gone down this road a lot in the past just experimenting.

Now I don't have the answer what so ever, but this is my personal experience.

Once I start splashing blue it takes me quickly down one road:. Brainstorm. Why would I ever play a blue combo deck and not play brainstorm and maybe ponder. If I'm splashing for intuition, might as well play brainstorm. Now ponder, maybe transmute... Hey Jace is really good, oh and I should play FOW... Up the blue count... Oh... I just built another deck.





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[sroncor1]

Yeah I get that and I do agree that is a totally different deck. I guess the issue we need to work through is the three mana worth the Intuition vs the one mana of E tutor. While I do not think that the world is falling and we may end up not changing much but I do think the format may be the most open that it has been in like 5 years so I would like to just check a few options. For the first time in a long time I think I am open to the idea that Rw may not be the best version of Imperial Painter.

Seth

[Kap'n Cook]

Yea Seth I agree and this is basically what I was starting to get at in my posts. Part of the reason Shortcake became the premier painter build was that etutor combined so well with the draw ability of top, saving you at least a turn by making etutor into demonic tutor. So when Seth is saying that RW may not be the best build anymore, I certainly understand why.

[Ish]

Great thoughts all around.

On the overall picture... I love the banning on the surface... While it hurts us, it shakes the meta up... And that's damn exciting. Also blood moon gets a lot better.


Maybe "just" intuition is something to try. We also have to replace E Tutor... So 6 swaps.


Hey... At least we finally have something to discuss and look to invite on the deck again... Been a long time stale.

If we do splash for intuition.. could be terrible...

But:

Go 4 welder to maximize intuition. Add 2 wurmcoil (pulling from UR tech) to give us an alt win con and plays really well with welder.




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[drude1]

To the general point of developing the deck beyond the top banning, I think this board is for a painter prison deck that includes the combo, imperial recruiter, and blood moon. How you build around that shell (maybe add welders) is all gravy. So in my opinion, to talk about r/b or other variants with that shell is still relevant. And as a few people have pointed out, r/w might not be the best version any more. Granted, if you are building painter-stone blue then go to the other board. But I think trying to find the right engine to put the imperial painter base in is the key right now. I just personally like r/b due to the supporting cards being relatively strong in what I think will be the current meta. Blood moon is probably better. Recruiter is still very good. It's just a matter of finding the best support staff. Given that we will probably have to slow our game down a bit, I like the idea of hiding some strong planeswalkers behind a bridge and playing the control game. Black has strong pieces against other combo decks. Blue would add more consistency and probably some speed. I will definitely agree with your take on blue though. That's the first place I went when the top ban happened and I just don't know how to build that deck without brainstorm. Having said that, I played blue painter-stone for a little while and didn't like it so I am steering away from that myself. White still gives you the etutors and some silver bullets, but without top I just don't like it as much.

The difficult thing for us will be to get on the same page. I just don't know if that is likely to happen. That's what will make this board somewhat discombobulated but I don't think there is any way around it. And as someone who also checks in on a few other boards here on the Source, this is not a problem that is unique to us. In general though, as long as you are talking about the "imperial painter" base of cards, I think innovation is key at this point (I feel like I've had this conversation before). It feels right now like everyone kinda wants to test their own thing for a while. Maybe we do that and then come back here with some results. Again, I am really wanting to work on a r/b strategy and will maybe try to start streaming more with my build and people can chime in that way. If other people start testing a r/u version, please do the same. And if anyone can really make r/w work, awesome.

[Valleysdai]

@drude1 for me RW painter has grown more flexible. I am playing a sort of "hate box", where I use e tutor and imperial recruiter to find hate pieces (such as RIP, bridge, moon, trinisphere, etc). I admit that losing top was hard but I have 2 more slots for hate cards, so the deck has more flexibility and I may try running 1 LED to have more explosive games.

[chaosjace]

Just wanted to throw out an idea
4x painter servant
4x grindstone
4x imperial recruiter
4x pyroblast
2x red elemental last
4x blood moon
2x Chandra, torch of defiance
1x Ajani vengeant
3x rest in peace
1-2 helm of obedience
4x lotus petal
1x ethersworn canonist
1x magus of the moon
1-3 peacekeeper
1-3 lions eye diamond?
4x ancient tomb
2-4 city of traitors
4x fetches (while we don't have card filtering deck shrinking has always appealed to me)
??? Basics