I actually think that the mono red version of this deck is still kind of strong. I know that Japanese players continue to do well despite the top ban. It was also the version of the deck that was least hurt by top's banning. You now get 2-3 more slots to play janky red creatures.Originally Posted by descxz
Thanks for the input! Do you have a recommended list that I can follow?I actually think that the mono red version of this deck is still kind of strong. I know that Japanese players continue to do well despite the top ban. It was also the version of the deck that was least hurt by top's banning. You now get 2-3 more slots to play janky red creatures.
There are a bunch on the hareruya website. I'd be a little cautious about copying and pasting a list from there, I think that Japanese players frequently test stuff. If I had to play a mono red list tomorrow I think i'd play something like this:
3 Goblin Welder
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Painter's Servant
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Spellskite
2 Smuggler's Copter
4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
4 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Mountain
Sideboard
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Manic Vandal
2 Fiery Confluence
1 Ratchet Bomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Koth of the Hammer
I've been running smugglers copter alongside a pile of welders and a pair of grim lavamancers. Copter is great for card filtering, and welder+lavamancer makes sure nothing gets wasted in long, grindy games
Ok so I spent some time reading the thread and thinking about my previous post. I should have been clearer in my post that people need to treat Blood Moon as more a tempo play rather than a lock play. I know we all mention it as a lock out play but you always have to find a way to win after resolving a moon. In its best play, your opponent will never be able to advance their board position outside of mountains and their hand never develops. But in reality resolving the Moon effect allows you to buy time in turns which allow you to better develop you mana and draw cards which is the hallmark of any combo deck. It was with this in mind I really thought about the posts with Smuggler’s Copter.
Initially I dismissed the card as it seemed too cute, and I questioned how reliably we could activate it. However when I diagramed out the list I realized it actually occupied a really nice spot on the curve. Our shitty dudes do a great job of crewing it and that really amplifies their power while helping to smooth out the draws. While you see less cards than SDT, the added damage helps put pressure on the opponent which can help force them to combat the Copter instead of our combo, thus playing perfectly into that tempo role. Also its ability to continue to show you cards while allowing you mana to develop your board is really nice and it solves a huge problem with keeping your hand small with Bridge. After I noticed this I immediately agreed with the posts about Grim Lavamancer. He plays well with the card in the current meta. The Copter feeds him, he can easily crew it, and he serves as a much stronger turn one play in a DST meta, rather than hoping for resolution of Moon or needing instant speed removal spells. He would often times eat removal for fear of how he could affect the board which is great when your key creature only has a butt of 3.
So I threw together a list, trying to keep the core of Shortcake together (something I admit I did not think was possible). I wanted to get the list out there even though it is the most untested and untuned deck I think I have posted on this thread. But I do not have all the time I use to but I really do think the deck has legs. I have been slinging it on MODO the past 24 hours, with over 25 matches at this time. I have managed to win 18 of them, and that is with a really rough sideboard along with me taking some time trying to figure out the best way to sequence the plays with the Copters and Lavamancers in the deck. I have made multiple mistakes so the win rate should probably be higher. The deck is untuned and the sideboard was more to test types of cards instead of specific cards (ie Bolts are just generic burn, or Pyroclasm as a wrath effect).
I hope some of you will try this list. One key issue is that you want 4 Copters in the deck as you want it active turn 2 if you go that route. With that in mind I really think 8 sol lands is needed. Due to the extra City of Traitors, I went with 19 lands, and 5 fast mana to try and get mana stability. I have not added an artifact land, just bc I wanted to worry less about Wasteland as I tested, but there should most likely be one when it is all said and done.
19 lands- 8 sol lands, 5 fetch lands, 3 plateaus, 3 mountain
5 fast mana( using 3 Lotus Petakl, 2 SSG
4 Imperial Recruiters
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Painters Servant
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
5 blast( However you want, it doesn’t matter, Beta REB are coolest)
3 e tutor
4 Smuggler Copters
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Goblin Welder
1 of the following - jaya, ee, walking ballista, phyrexian metamorph, additional blast, Chandra, goblin welder, revoker, extra land or silent arbiter are some choices I considered. I am inclined to think it should be a dude just bc you need to ensure second turn attack with copter if that is decision tree you decide.
Board
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Rip
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Pyroclasm
2 blast effects
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Cannonist
1 Viashino Heretic
So there it is. I hope some of you try this out and I think as a group we may be able to get this deck to find its place and a measure of viability.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
Copter has been insane for me in URb. Imperial has more Sol lands and more idiots to drive it, so I'm not surprised that it is good here too. It might be worth going up on the Welder count, the synergy is high.
I would agree. In fact the synergy of welder and copter is so good (and throw in lavamancer) that the RIP in the board is a complete buzz kill for me. I know why it is there, but it's why I would actually still advocate for the black splash in the deck to swap those out for leylines. Taking some of Seth's ideas into account, for those of you still wanting to play a RWB version of the deck, I would run something like this...
// Lands
3 [MR] Great Furnace
2 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [UNH] Mountain
1 [B] Badlands
1 [B] Plateau
1 [UNH] Plains
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
3 [UL] Goblin Welder
1 [MMA] Ethersworn Canonist
3 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
2 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [TE] Lotus Petal
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [IA] Pyroblast
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
4 [DK] Blood Moon
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
2 [KLD] Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 [KLD] Smuggler's Copter
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ORI] Ghirapur AEther Grid
SB: 2 [C15] Fiery Confluence
SB: 1 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 2 [C14] Containment Priest
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience
SB: 1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [KLI] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
You could certainly play with the numbers if you wanted to get a full playset of copters in there. I would also consider adding a third tutor for either one of the moons or something else non-essential.
If you didn't want to play black, I would honestly consider tormod's crypts or something like that just because RIP really doesn't play well with copters, lavamancers or welders. Otherwise I like where the list is going.
PetDan also talked about incorporating a bomberman strategy into the list. I think this also has real potential, but that just feels like a totally different deck.
Yeah the RiP does kill the Welder, but its a necessary evil at this point I feel. Against graveyard decks, (various Dredge lists, lands, and the various reanimator lists) it is just so strong, that you really don't need Welder in those matches.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
Is lavaman really playable? I'm sure that 1-2 would be fine, but we don't exactly fill up our yard since we don't have cantrips. Have there been any red or white creatures printed in the last year that would potentially go into the deck? The only thing I can think of is Dire Fleet Daredevil but he doesn't really fit with our strategy.
@ Cpt- Lavaman, I have to say that name is so much better than his real name, I will def start using it moving forward. And yes I do think he is playable. Now that is being said with respect to the current deck to beat and mtg goldfish meta game, along with the changes I made to the deck. Reasons are as follows:
1. He serves as a reasonable way to remove DRS, which is critical in helping the Blood Moon to be strong against 3-4 color pile lists. As a splash he can handle Delvers, Young Pyromancer, your elf target of choice, Mom, and Phyrexian Revokers.
2. To get maximum value from Copter you need dudes on both sides of the curve to allow for efficient and full use of mana every turn while also advancing your board position. You would likely need additional 1 drops to go with Welder. His ability to destroy some of the creatures that really cause us issue is what makes him stronger than most.
3. With Copter going it is smart to use creatures or spells that look to take advantage of the graveyard as a resource. Two activations in a game is enough to make him very valuable as what he can machine gun down can really swing the match up by buying us time which equals more mana and cards for us.
4. Much like Welder, even if he doesn't activate he is a disruptive force on the board. Against many of the DtB, they need to answer him immediately for fear of losing their creatures. This serves two purposes as he can either disrupt their attack, or soak up their removal. Either if those things are very favorable to us as less removal on turn 3 and beyond means our Painter is more likely to survive. Worrying about activations is secondary to all this. But with fetches and other cards it is relatively easy to have 4 plus cards in the yard.
5. The Lavaman is from Odyssey block, so the card is sick.
But I do agree on first glance he seems less powerful, but I encourage you all to try him out. I will say I often find myself boarding them out in a bunch of match ups, but I think that is ok.
I am still trying to grind out games to get a sense of if this reworking actually has legs. I am nearing 80 games at this point with some promising results. The consistency of the deck is there, with some nice reach. I have really enjoyed the new lines of attack that the Copters and other cards allow. The deck has been more difficult than I had expected but I think I am starting to get a feel of the proper way to sequence plays.
I do want to stress that sideboard I posted was only to show what I was working with for completeness. There are multiple cards that I eventually intend on adding to the deck, but for the time being I want to have a variety of cards to try in different positions. I would expect about 5-6 of the cards not to be there when I play in the first real event.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
@ CptHaddock
Harsh Mentor seemed promising initially. Not sure if he does enough work here unless our pressure game got more effective.
@sroncor1
I think Abrade is a more versatile card than Bolt for our purposes, sideboard wise.
Ok so Jack and I tried the deck out in a league tonight. While the end result was not the best (2-3), I think the testing was a success. We beat storm and Lands, losing heartbreakers to Omnitell, Lands, and Dragonstompy. The Omnitell and Dragonstompy were especially painful as we were one card from our outs in each setting. Overall the deck performed well and the Copter really added a dynamic component that was missing since SDT was banned. After the league Jack and I talked and we decided that multiple changes needed to happen. I played the list from my previous post.
Updated list is as follows:
19 lands- 8 sol lands, 4 fetch lands, 4 plateaus, 3 mountain( working on these numbers, may end up with 7 sol lands and will likely add a Great Furnace and maybe an additional fetch land)
5 fast mana( using 3 Lotus Petal, 2 SSG)
4 Imperial Recruiters
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Painters Servant
3 Lavaman
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
5 blast( However you want, it doesn’t matter, Beta REB are coolest)
3 e tutor
4 Smuggler Copters
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Goblin Welder
1 EE- I think this is really needed after seeing a bunch of chalice. This is a hard recommendation after nearly 100 games with the new approach.
Board
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya
4 Rip
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Pyroclasm
2 Chandra Torch of Defiance
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Canonist
1 Viashino Heretic
. In summary the changes are:
Out- Magus, Jaya
In- Cannonist, EE
Currently a 3/2 split of Lavaman/Welder, but those numbers may not stay
Board is still really in flux, but looking to really just try some stuff out. Pinpoint removal never felt needed so those cards are out. Pyroclasm still seems very relevant, even with EE. It is likely that I will eventually want at least one additional blast effect, but right now I want to test and see if there are situations where I would want either additional Bridges or things like Chandra. The RiP/Helm combo was strong all night. The five grave hate spell is also open. I still feel like I want access to 8 post board effects, but I am not tied to Crypt as Relic is a viable choice.
Thoughts:
We were in every match tonight. The Lavaman was not a huge factor, but that is also due to the weird selection of decks we played. Without seeing any of the 3-4 color piles or Grixis lists, we never played those match ups where he really shines. He was able to give us reach in a game to help shorten the clock which was nice. Smuggler Copter was strong when it got active. The ability to see more cards, even when on defense is really nice. I am more convinced that at least for Shortcake I would try 4 as a starting point. The issue moving forward is ensuring enough creatures in the maindeck to keep crewing it. Currently it is at 16 and I would be worried to drop below that as I would love to have one another creature to be fair.
With respect to Abrade that may be correct, but I no longer feel that pin point removal is needed. It is likely Abrade would be a solid upgrade, but its inability to get DRS on the first turn is something to consider for anyone thinking targeted removal is what they need. For now I will be moving away from that. I can not speak to the Harsh Mentor, but it does seem tough to find something the cut to make room for it.
Maybe it will be possible for us to keep painting… Oh yeah free NedLeeds.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
Testing is progressing nicely. I will hope to get in at least 3 more leagues this week along with hopefully a couple hours a night fine tuning the last few slots in the deck. After speaking with Jack I think we are getting close to 72/75 cards are so hammered out. Obviously each person will need to adjust for their meta, but I hope to have a sideboard plan also up this week. I need to get in more testing against Grixis delver mainly at this point. Also maybe a little more Eldrazi, but so far that match yup seems favorable. Even with all this work I need to caution the danger of small sample size, but it is a start.
In other news, Jack and I are batting around the idea of starting a pure Shortcake thread. There are multiple reasons for this:
1. The front page is locked and while I like having the history and think its important, the inability to update the first post with a updated deck list and sideboard options does make the deck difficult to have new people test out optimized lists as reading through the thread can reveal too many weird variants that are less tested.
2. Since the banning of SDT, most of the front page is invalid at this time as Legacy looks a lot different than 5 years ago. See number 1 why this is important.
3. Moving forward, I think the mono red and Shortcake lists should seperate. The gameplay, boarding, and matchups are vastly different, and made even worse by the banning of SDT. Mono reds lack of any real card selection places different deck building constraints on a player and they should be addressed in a dedicated thread so as to not confuse people.
4. The notion that Imperial Recruiter is not needed as a 4 of in the list. While not exclusive to Shortcake, this has always been a point of contention. I am happy to have people test painter lists with suboptimal numbers of Recruiters, but Shortcake needs 4 and that hasn't changed in ten years. I think people having a place to discuss using less Recruiters is fine, but that should not be part of the Shortcake discussion.
I am not sure the timeline to get the new thread started but I would love to have something together in the next couple weeks. I imagine we will roll it out piecemeal, with a starting deck list and sideboard plan, along with game play strategies for the top decks as the first posts.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
Has anybody here tried Caleb Durward's mono red painter list? Off the top of my head it looks something like this.
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Opal
4 Grindstone
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Myr Battlesphere
2 Sundering Titan
1 Combustible Gearhulk
4 Faithless Looting
2 Pyroblast
4 Blood Moon
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
9 Mountain
It's definitely more all in on the welder plan. Faithless looting is good and Daretti is Welder and Looting 5-8.
A guy at our local has played a similar list with Wurmcoils and Lootings to some success. It does work. It’s going to take awhile but I’m going to be trying a more Chandra-Bridge-Moon centred list in a couple of months when Recruiters come down in price a little. Don’t have Mtgo so it’s hard to play test beyond goldfishing but it seems pretty consistent as well.
Hopefully someone can get some version to stick!
I would be careful of going in on the Welder plan without reliable ways to answer DRS. In those match ups along with Miracles lists that is a rough spot to be focused on. Until DRS numbers go down I would be very cautious putting all your hopes into a graveyard centric creature that dies to everything. I am not saying that Welder isn't strong, just that the current meta can be very hostile to him. I also struggle to see how those lists can reliable beat combo and Show and Tell, not to mention Elves and Turbo Depths if you don't have the Moon by turn three at the latest as those decks are incredibly quick now. I do imagine that it is very strong in a discard heavy meta.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
There is a pretty high amount of surgical extraction so welder as well as welding effects aren't as great as they used to be. And obviously we're an A + B combo deck so those will be coming in against us.
I'd be in favor of a new thread entirely. Ever since top got banned this thread has been pretty much out of date. You guys have made me want to run the deck again so i'll give it a go at a weekly. I'm very sad that I sold my painter pieces and can no longer test on MTGO.
ive been just playing tournament practice with mono red. i mostly use welder to bait out removal or counters. i dont have any hopes in him actually doing something.
@grad- Right Welder serves as great bait for removal. The issue is that the Faithless Looting list need to leverage him for actual Welding in the game. That is a really tough spot to be in currently. Not to mention drawing most of those large artifacts are basically like mulligans without Faithless Looting in hand. I do think the format in general is too fast to commit all that mana and time to uptap turn 3 with Myr Battlesphere in play. I mean that doesn't seem good enough in current legacy and that seems like the best start those Wedler centric lists can pull off. I mean yes if you resolve that against BUG and Grixis Delver you would likely win, but Tendrils, Miracles, and elves probably all laugh at that. And getting to that board state in games 2 and 3 against Grixis and BUG seems really tough when they figure out what you are doing. So it can get free wins game one, but man I think you will have trouble in any big event with a list like that.
@Cpt- Jack and I are working on it as we speak. Trying to get the history down, along with evolution of the deck and then also finalize a deck and sideboard plan to give everyone a start. The deck is shaping up nicely and I think has plenty of promise right now from my testing. Working on nailing down the last few cards in the main and side. At that point I will have a sideboard strategy completed along with explanation of card choices. Maybe a week or so away at this point. Depends on the rest of the testing I can do. Also depends on Jack's ability to get in some testing to confirm a few things. I do recommend trying out what I have previously posted, as that isn't far from what I am slinging on Mtgo these days.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
Yeah after you mentioned Lavamancer I was pretty keen on trying him out. I think i'll be running something like this during the weekly, maybe -1 copter, +1 magus depending on if I can find more copies of copter.
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
2 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Plateau
4 Blood Moon
3 Mountain
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
3 Smuggler's Copter
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Simian Spirit Guide
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