[Deck] Imperial Painter

[jasper]

Posts like this are the reason we will be having a thread split. Confusion as to what build we are discussing and cross posting only adds to the confusion. Seth and I will work on getting it out hopefully this week or next.

Jasper I think you should do more research before making blanket statements about Shortcake's success in large tournaments.

4 Recruiters was and still is the correct number to run. Others might disagree and say they like 3, but I view that as suboptimal. It's like a blue deck running 3 brainstorm.

I think it is worth having a split thread at this point, and I look forward to the new thread that you guys are putting together. I've tried to be as clear as possible about which deck I was talking about when, but particularly when talking about both in almost the same breath it can be difficult to keep track.

I was basing my statement on 'professional' level tournaments on mtgtop8.com. My statement that 'no Shortcake list with 4 Recruiters top 8'd a major event for the three years after LeJay finished in the top 8 of GP Paris 2014' is accurate unless mtgtop8's archive is missing events, assuming the aforementioned criterion. here was Momme Gruppe's top 16 with a Shortcake build (albeit one with only 1 Enlightened Tutor) at GP Prague 2016, but other than that, there were no professional level finishes after Lejay's top 8 at the beginning of 2014.

Admittedly, my use of the word major was ambiguous in the sense that mtgtop8 has another category for major. Counting 'major' events as well, there were two in 2015, and a handful more in 2014, with the specific lists varying widely. I don't think my statement was all that unreasonable or under-researched, but apologies for the ambiguity.

I'm not even necessarily disputing that 4 Recruiters is the correct number, but saying that you view 3 as suboptimal isn't an argument in and of itself. I think that in an SDT-less world, 4 Recruiters is likely better than 3. I'm not sure if the issue is as clear cut when it comes to historical lists, and as it is I don't think we have the data to say for sure. I was just pointing out that 2 and 3 Recruiter lists experienced some degree of success. Additionally, the list in my article was intended as an example, taking into account the priorities that I laid out above, not a definitive 'best' Shortcake list.

[jasper]

With respect to blast, I do agree if you have a blast in hand then naming blue is probably correct. Usually you are ok with them pitching already blue cards to FoW as those cards power level is really so high I am happy they do not get to cast him. I would argue that pitching a Gurmag Angler is actually painful to you as a Painter player. Much like Goyf was in years past, it is not really the Angler that kills you. It was the other cards in the sequence that beat you and it could be a hill giant for that matter that deals the death blow. I guess from my perspective I want them pitching Brainstorm, Ponder, Delver, and Jace to the FoW. Daze in an interesting card, but even still I would probably want that also pitched bc mana efficiency is critical and knowing they pitched a Daze means you have one more mana essentially. It may just be due to the fact that we value cards differently and as a result we choose our plan of attack differently. Against FoW decks I assume that one of my first 3 plays will eat a FoW. That is ok, but if they are able to get a second that can be brutal.

@Jasper- the fact that threats are balanced between 3 and 4 mana would mean that mana base construction should be different though. I guess at some point this discussion is really irrelevant but I think it is critical from a deck design stand point. My issue with the trending of mono red Painter going towards Dragon stompy is really two fold:

1. The mana base needs to be different. We can go back and forth on the kill cards and the importance of the cards, but the fact that they run so many four drops is critical. That is why the mana base needs to change. Chrome mox and mountains in general are stronger with that game plan. Mono red painter needs to use that to take full advantage of these cards. The issue there is a general loss of explosiveness, which is not always wrong, just a different line of approach.

2. Mono red lists going to a dragon stompy game plan actually lose the second strongest card in that shell, namely Chalice. Now this is only an outside observer, but usually merging two decks leads to some problems and I caution about this. The strength of Chalice is a large reason why those high end cards are so good in current Legacy.

@ 4 Recruiters- The issue isnt that there may be a better number than 4. Its the fact that no sound reason has been given. I am open to the idea of it so long as a sound reason can be voiced. When people say, "It lets me run a 4th Welder" they are missing the point as if they wanted a fourth a welder there are much weaker cards to cut to fit that Welder in, if that is the deck configuration you want. I only bring up the fact that Recruiter always increases consistency, card selection, and card advantage while leaving behind a body. It is probably in the top 3 cards in the deck in any match up. If there is a compelling argument against this I would love to hear it bc I am open to the fact that the deck is improperly built as is. It is not an ego thing as I am open about the fact that I was so wrong in most respects about SDT in the deck before.

My only issue with a 5-0 league is that leagues in general are a strange place. The quality and variety can be really odd, and so I caution taking too much from them. I think they are great for a testing purpose and to get a sense of strength of the deck, but inferring from decks with question deck choices that go against fundamental magic is suspect. \

But thank you Jasper, you have helped start some very lively debate about theory of the deck.

Seth

Seth

Hmm, interesting points for sure. My point about the angler was more one about their threat density. In some senses you're right that it might as well be a Hill Giant that kills you, but as Delver is fundamentally a tempo deck, if they're forced to be reactive to deal with your powerful cards while they don't have a threat on board, you're in a good spot. If they're able to FoW too spells that can be brutal I agree, but my point is more about probability. The chances of them having two FoWs is lower than the chances of you having a blast (or two). Of course, so much of this has to be evaluated in-game on a case-by-case basis, which is one of the things that makes Painter a difficult and interesting deck to play.

My points about mono-red Imperial Painter moving towards Dragon Stompy in the article are more descriptive based on what I've seen on here and elsewhere than they are prescriptive. I am unsure as to whether it's the 'right' place for the deck to go or not, and am definitely open to arguments on both sides of that point.

I'm still not sure I follow what you're saying about the mana-base. As it stands, they are very similar as far as I can see.

I definitely agree about the issue of losing Chalice, which is something I talked about in the article and one of the reasons I decided to try a mono-blue list with Chalice in the first place.

As for the number of recruiters in the lists I'm referring to, I think the reason they played fewer is to make room for the 4th SDT while maintaining the amount of fast mana and including a fifth moon effect in Magus, as well as keeping the third Welder because it is better with more SDTs. In that kind of list, there are fewer silver bullets and more redundancy, meaning that Imperial Recruiter is arguably a little less important than in lists where you want to be able to find, say, your 1-of Phyrexian Revoker or similar.

I share your skepticism about 5-0 league results—leagues can be odd places, although in my experience the quality of deck is generally fairly high. This is why I was emphasising the repeat performance of pinkfrosting's lists. While isolated 5-0s are suspect, I think it's ok to lend a little more credence to a list that is able to 5-0 on a regular basis, which is what pinkfrosting was doing to the best of my knowledge.

Thank you for taking the time to discuss things! I appreciate it. I hope you haven't found anything I've said to be disrespectful of you or your thoughts on the deck. As I said, I have a great deal of respect for your history with the deck.

[drude1]

Ah... Just like the days of old arguing the superiority of our favorite lists....;)

Just wanted to add my $0.02...

First, I will preface this by saying that I have much more recently been on blue versions of painter lately, as they have just been much more successful for me. Brainstorm is a hell of a card (although I actually played the chalice/whir of invention version at my LGS last night and did quite well with it). So, take anything I say with a grain of salt as I have not been playing a ton of shortcake lately. I did stream one league a couple weeks ago and just got wrecked. Most of my rantings would be from a historical perspective and porting that information forward.

1. to RiP or not to RiP. I think both Seth and Jasper are right/wrong in this regard. First, @Jasper, I think you are both under-valuing grave-hate against lands and undervaluing the RiP/helm combo (or leyline/helm combo) in general as a win con. Rest in Peace in general is extremely well positioned right now as it turns off deathrite, snapcaster, delve cards and obviously graveyard based decks. Against lands, I would value bridge > grave hate > blood moon. Don't get me wrong, blood moon is obviously good against them. But we have a lot of lands players at my LGS and the running joke is how many times lands players are just winning off a blood moon these days. Me, play bloodmoon, you play dark depths with no counters, blow up my moon eot and swing in with 20/20. There is actually a mono red deck that people are playing where they play blood moon into dark depths into despotic scepter. So you can't just turn 1-2 your blood moon and call it good day like we could in the old days. Grave hate really punishes the lands player's game plan of loam, gamble and punishing fires, and minus the nut of a turn 3 20/20 off of a crop rot, a turn 2 RiP is pretty damned strong against them. As a perfect example, I played against lands last night and if it wasn't for the 10 islands I was playing I would have lost to him ghost quartering me 1-2 times a turn for 5 turns. Game 2 I won on turn 3 with a leyline and helm.
On the other hand, I think on it's own RiP is too slow for the fast graveyard decks. It does almost nothing against RB Reanimator unless they have a really slow start. And if they are having a slow start it's likely because they have a grip full of artifact/enchantment removal spells or discard and they will rip the RiP out of your hand before you even get a chance to play it. You really need a turn 0/1 play. For that reason, I personally like the black lists so that I can play leyline instead of RiP. But in shortcake, I would probably run 2-3 Rip and 2-3 other spells (surgical).

2. Recruiter numbers: I have historically played with 3 recruiters forever (and have had this argument on this thread many times before). I did quite well with my list including several qualifier wins and a top 16 in an open. My feeling was that although recruiter was really good, I would generally never want to see more than one, as it only ever got half my combo and always felt a little slow. My lists were also a bit creature light so recruiter didn't have a ton of targets. If I were on the list that you guys are advocating with smuggler's copters, I would most definitely be on 4 recruiters. He does a lot more work in your list than he did in mine. l think that we can all agree that with the loss of top this deck needs all the help it can get finding the cards it needs. From a historical perspective though, I think there were times that running less than a full playset of recruiters was reasonable. As Jasper points out, the most recent painter lists that have done well were usually running less than 4. That by no means suggests that 4 was wrong either. It's just personal preference.

3. What color to name: This is obviously completely conditional. In general, If I have blasts in hand, I'm going to name blue. If I don't have blasts in hand and I plan on going off that turn or maybe the next, I will probably not say blue. Red blasts in general have seen an uptick in play lately, I think as a way to fight the really big threats in the 4-color mirrors (Leo, true name, jace). If my opponent is playing red, I am very anxious about putting painter on blue.

4. Heretic vs 1 timers (eg. hedge-mage): in the current legacy environment, I would definitely be on hedge-mage. Heretic was awesome against MUD decks and such. But these days the only artifacts you are trying to blow up are chalices, null rod/pithing needle effects and equipment. MOST decks now are attrition decks with LOTS of answers to random creatures and I think more times than not you are not going to get an activation out of the heretic. And jitte is a real thing. I'm not sure how often you guys have played against jitte, but in my experience, if it has more than 2 counters on it jitte becomes a major pain in the ass. Since we are usually grabbing an artifact hate bear retroactively I think you are much better off with something that has a comes into play effect. Yes, there are corner cases, but there is a reason most of us switched away from heretic a couple years ago and those reasons haven't changed much.

5. stompy shell, fast mana, are blasts counterspells or vindicates, etc....semantics.

To Jack and Seth, if you guys are going to split up the threads, what are you proposing to do with your thread? You are doing it to keep the conversation focused on R/W shortcake? Or shortcake with copters (needs a new name maybe)? Is the point then to just contemplate the 3 or so flex spots in your version of the deck? Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea if you are just looking to "brainstorm" ideas for a r/w shortcake/copter list and take out the mono red or BRW posts. I'm honestly just not sure that it's going to work. Everyone will want to test, make contributions and eventually put a different "spin" on the deck, and then you are back to the original shortcake primer.

p.s. just noticed this is my 500th post. Happy anniversary to me! Think I'll buy myself a cake!

[sroncor1]

I think the main reason is to have a dedicated shortcake list. Mono red isn’t shortcake for a lot of reasons. Outside of making comments about mana bases I did not have much to add anymore to the mono red discussion as those lists are tactically much different than shortcake.

I am happy to defend literally every decision in the deck, but I do think at this juncture having different threads is key. Mono red painter is closer to dragon stompy than what we are trying these days. It’s for a lot of the reasons I mentioned earlier that I think Shortcake really needs to establish its own footprint moving forward. I am all for others trying shit, just with Shortcake there is a defined strategy that really doesn’t lend itself to where the non red lists have trended. Now I do think there is some shared technology amongst the two lists, but to minimize infighting it just seems best.

With respect to Recruiters we will just have to agree to disagree. I can’t think of a big event that had a list with only three do well. From a deck building principle not using 4 recruiters is akin to not running 4 demonic consultations in necro decks of old. It happened a lot, those decks still won a lot, but it still doesn’t make it the right decision. The deck can easily run hot over 5-6 rounds based solely on the strength of a 2 card, 6 mana combo and blood moon. Doesn’t mean it’s optimized. And I do think that Shortcake specifically is built and tuned with 4 Recruiters in mind. It determines the cards and answers we play along with helping to guide sequencing of cards.

Seth

[pinkfrosting]

I think the main reason is to have a dedicated shortcake list. Mono red isn’t shortcake for a lot of reasons. Outside of making comments about mana bases I did not have much to add anymore to the mono red discussion as those lists are tactically much different than shortcake.

I am happy to defend literally every decision in the deck, but I do think at this juncture having different threads is key. Mono red painter is closer to dragon stompy than what we are trying these days. It’s for a lot of the reasons I mentioned earlier that I think Shortcake really needs to establish its own footprint moving forward. I am all for others trying shit, just with Shortcake there is a defined strategy that really doesn’t lend itself to where the non red lists have trended. Now I do think there is some shared technology amongst the two lists, but to minimize infighting it just seems best.

With respect to Recruiters we will just have to agree to disagree. I can’t think of a big event that had a list with only three do well. From a deck building principle not using 4 recruiters is akin to not running 4 demonic consultations in necro decks of old. It happened a lot, those decks still won a lot, but it still doesn’t make it the right decision. The deck can easily run hot over 5-6 rounds based solely on the strength of a 2 card, 6 mana combo and blood moon. Doesn’t mean it’s optimized. And I do think that Shortcake specifically is built and tuned with 4 Recruiters in mind. It determines the cards and answers we play along with helping to guide sequencing of cards.

Seth

My problem with shortcake now is that enlightened tutor is a bad card. Sensei's divining top is a really good card that made enlightened tutor a much better card than it is alone. Without SDT shortcake feels very clunky where it used to be very versatile and sometimes brutally fast at deploying just the right silver bullet at just the right time.

[Kap'n Cook]

My problem with shortcake now is that enlightened tutor is a bad card. Sensei's divining top is a really good card that made enlightened tutor a much better card than it is alone. Without SDT shortcake feels very clunky where it used to be very versatile and sometimes brutally fast at deploying just the right silver bullet at just the right time.

Enlightened Tutor is worse, yes. The inclusion of Smuggler's Copter is attempting to mitigate that downside a bit now, though, plus opening fetch, tomb, tutor is still a very strong opening hand

[jasper]

@drude1 How did you get on with the chalice/whir version? The second part of my series about it just went up at https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...nters-palette/, which is a primer of sorts discussing the maindeck. Would love to hear your thoughts!

The RiP question is an interesting one for sure, and it's clear that we have divergent experiences with and intuitions about it. I could definitely be undervaluing RiP-Helm as a combo—the question is whether it whether it is good enough to justify the downsides of running RiP and diluting the maindeck plan. The answer to that question could well be yes, but I think it's a question worth asking when the combo itself doesn't do that much that our main combo doesn't also do. Although RiP shuts off Deathrite and delve, I still don't think you're bringing it in against Grixis Delver and Czech Pile. I have been thinking about it against Miracles, though, and it seems pretty reasonable there. They can get a lot of value out of Snapcaster, particularly postboard with Disenchant, and shutting that off as well as presenting a combo that's more difficult to interact with could well be the right thing for the matchup—particularly because we have a fair bit of stuff that needs boarding out because moons aren't very good against them.

As far as graveyard hate against Lands, you're right that I don't value it as highly as you do. I was chatting to a Lands player about the matchup and I would still put moon above it as far as interaction, despite the change to the Dark Depths ruling. RiP does shut off their value engine, but moon does virtually the same thing—loaming isn't nearly as good when all your lands are mountains. RiP being fairly poor against two of their postboard game plans (Marit Lage and Tireless Tracker) while Bridge and Moon do work against both means that I still prioritise them both over graveyard hate. I think we are aiming to combo as quickly as possible, not drag the game out long. With that in mind, them gaining incremental value with Loam is less important. That said, Wasteland and Ghost Quarter are more problematic for Shortcake than for some other versions, so making sure you don't get locked out of playing the game at all by recurrent land destruction can still be important.

For what it's worth, I definitely agree about 4 Recruiters in SDT-less builds of Shortcake, particularly with Copter. Card just does so much for you, giving you outs to lots of situations and a great deal of flexibility to boot.

@pinkfrosting Agreed, Enlightened Tutor has been the main sticking point for me with current Shortcake lists. Feels pretty unwieldy at the best of times, particularly in combination with Blood Moon when locking yourself out of white sources is a real possibility.

[CptHaddock]

The RiP question is an interesting one for sure, and it's clear that we have divergent experiences with and intuitions about it. I could definitely be undervaluing RiP-Helm as a combo—the question is whether it whether it is good enough to justify the downsides of running RiP and diluting the maindeck plan. The answer to that question could well be yes, but I think it's a question worth asking when the combo itself doesn't do that much that our main combo doesn't also do. Although RiP shuts off Deathrite and delve, I still don't think you're bringing it in against Grixis Delver and Czech Pile. I have been thinking about it against Miracles, though, and it seems pretty reasonable there. They can get a lot of value out of Snapcaster, particularly postboard with Disenchant, and shutting that off as well as presenting a combo that's more difficult to interact with could well be the right thing for the matchup—particularly because we have a fair bit of stuff that needs boarding out because moons aren't very good against them.

You're not really diluting your main plan with the RIP/Helm combo are you? You just become a 2 card monte deck and have helm as a "random" alternative win condition. I can't imagine there are very many matchups besides maybe burn where you want RIP/Helm and RIP just doesn't do anything by itself. I actually think against the UBrx decks, RIP shuts off enough that it's fine cutting off your welders.

I wouldn't cut all moons against the latest versions of miracles, maybe 1-2 and a magus. I think that blood moon has become even stronger against that deck. A lot of their earlier game is predicated on them having the ability to filter through cards and fetch accordingly, and by preying on that you are buying yourself a lot of time to find the combo or kill your opponent.

[NormalGuy]

You're not really diluting your main plan with the RIP/Helm combo are you? You just become a 2 card monte deck and have helm as a "random" alternative win condition. I can't imagine there are very many matchups besides maybe burn where you want RIP/Helm and RIP just doesn't do anything by itself. I actually think against the UBrx decks, RIP shuts off enough that it's fine cutting off your welders.

Your also cutting off lavaman, which is kind of important for dealing with delver and pyromancer.

[CptHaddock]

Your also cutting off lavaman, which is kind of important for dealing with delver and pyromancer.

Are you not playing blasts/board wipes/removal for those creatures?

[NormalGuy]

Are you not playing blasts/board wipes/removal for those creatures?

That is an option, but now you are talking about cutting a lot of creatures which makes crewing copter more difficult. That is a lot more concessions for RiP than just turning off welder. I would rather keep lavaman/welder/copter online, maybe bring in crypt to deal with opponents graveyard.

[sroncor1]

While I do not agree with a lot of what is being said. I am really happy that this thread is no longer dead.

@Normal guy- I agree balancing board wipes and dudes is sometimes difficult. Although in the current list, against grixis, out goes Heretic, Bridge, cannonist, and some other card. In comes the 3rd Lavaman, EE, and 2 pyroclasm. The issue is do you want an additional blast there. For that I am not sure. In general I have really wanted the blasts against Miracles, BUG, and 4 color pile lists and winning a counter war is a little more important there. But its ability to destroy Delver is worth considering. Since Heretic replaces EE in the main I feel this still give you the board sweepers while keeping the creature count at 16.

Elves is little trickier, although Cannonist and Pyroclasm are enormous cards in that match up. EE can provide some value but I often leave it out. I am also conflicted about Bridge in the match up. They really only beat you through resolving NO, and Bridge stops this. Yet the ability to just Reclamation Sage the card makes it a weak defense unless you have Welder also. Often times a Lavaman, followed by a Cannonist, or a first turn Moon opens up enough window for you develop your board. On the draw I often cut down the Blood Moon count which makes some of these choices easier there.

@cpt- You are right about the deck being a weaker version of 2 card monte. While RiP does shut off Welder and Lavaman, most of teh games you bring the card in, you really don't want Lavaman. Tendrils, Show and tell, Dredge, Burn, and various Reanimator lists are all match ups were he just isnt that good. The Cannonists can come in and provide a decent body with some upside. You always keep Welder just bc sometimes people will kill him before RiP is resolved and many games you actually don't draw RiP anyway so the reward is so much higher than the risk of a dead 1/1.

@RiP= I agree the speed is not optimal, although I am not sure how to fix it to be honest. The other night I played against ub and RB reanimator. I beat RB and lost to UB. While a small sample size, I know that Crypt vs RiP would not have changed that outcome as the UB player had the force for the RiP, which would have also stopped a Crypt. There ability to play properly drop a threat and then reload if needed is fairly hard to fight with single use grave hate. A single Faerie may work, but I also see that struggling to adequately deal with the issue. One thing to consider would be Surgical. Still weak to FoW but its ability to prevent reload of Grisselbrand is reasonable. It does answer Eldrazi and can have some value against Dredge and lands, although they can fairly easily play around it these days. But it is possible that would be the proper grave hate with the current meta and a singleton Crypt in the board. The issue with Fairie is that while it is technically tutorable, casting Recruiter and getting it probably is not strong enough to beat the modern versions of Reanimator.

@E tutor- I do not know how to respond to the idea that the card is weak. While it is not as strong as Vamp and mystical tutor its is far from a weak card. Its power is slightly lower without SDT these days, but a one mana tutor, even with card disadvantage, is always a powerful effect.

@Recruiter numbers- I am just going to withdraw from the discussion. I view him as a Demonic Tutor, albeit a weaker version. But for me a card like that is basically always getting maxed out in a deck that wants that sort of effect.

Seth

[Hopo]

For those who play removal in maindeck: I recommend trying Abrade as your removal of choice. You lose the ability to kill planeswalkers while making your game against Chalice and Jitte much more manageable. This probably doesn't apply to this weird weenie-approach I see people trying. You might also save some valuable SB slots.

[pettdan]

I had a second 3-1 run locally with the Rbw version with Blood Suns, of course too early to say much yet and I'm updating the list. Sometimes I love it, sometimes not. I play Kolaghans Commands which are similar to Abrades, I'd say.

Didn't forget your last question Jasper, on Magus, but I don't want to overload the thread with that peripheral discussion right now. (Also I'm just testing.) Btw, very nice to see some active discussion!


Edit: Another thing that I actually wanted to bring up at some point.. I'm not expecting everyone, or even most, people to agree. I'm not even convinced my arguments, reasoning and conclusions are correct. I just want to explain my speculative reasoning for the experiments I do more clearly. And this is closely connected to the other discussion here I think, about how to go about building Painter. Where a lot of people have different ideas, it would seem. So there is merit in discussing it.

I play a couple of different decks, and when I pick up a version of a deck I usually try to consider what makes me play this deck over other decks. And then it makes sense to adjust the version in that direction.

For Painter, the main reason to play the deck, as I see it, is the blasts. Playing ~6 maindeck blasts is very strong. No need to explain further, I think. It's all about the blue. Blue combo, blue grind, blue aggressive decks, blue is everywhere. I like to play decks that try to beat blue stuff. Choke is a favorite card. Chalice could be an answer to blue, but Chalice decks usually feel very clunky, you give up a lot in terms of deckbuilding, many decks have a strategy vs it, it's a lousy late-game topdeck (unless you have plenty of ways of dealing with the opponent's win conditions). Whatever. I like the blasts.
[edit: apparently I'm not the only one with this impression of Chalice and Blood Moon, Kombatkiwi states it similarly in the first 3-4 sentences: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1040343 - this is not undisputable, of course, but usually when something can be described in multiple ways, pro and contra, there is some truth in each interpretation]

The second reason could be having a maindeck answer to Marit Lage. A lot of fair decks have issues with Marit Lage, be it from Lands or Turbo Depths. Playing maindeck Blood Moons (or Suns) and Ensnaring Bridges makes for good chances in g1 especially but g2 and 3 too. While of course being maindeckable due to causing major headaches for a lot of decks.

Thirdly, I want to play a deck that has a reasonable grind to it. In my local meta, and I think in the meta at large, grindy decks are abundant. There is a lot of attrition. As such, I want cards that allow my version to stick around and be competitive in the late game. As I wrote in a recent post, the Painter+Grindstone combo is disrupted by some commonly played spells such as Bolt, StP, Push, Decay, Command, FoW, Thoughtseize, Inquisition, and Hymn can be a problem too. So like I wrote, that's why I'm not playing the deck in that direction. I understand that the history and synergies of the deck make the all-in combo approach very good. I don't doubt it. I also, like most others seem to, think that the loss of SDT weakened that approach considerably, losing the powerful card selection and card advantage tricks. Maybe Copter and Lavamancer can make up for it.

And the potential for a quick combo win hovers somewhere around there too. Not sure if above or below these. Probably between second and third reasons.

Is this even a suitable approach for painter? Maybe not. But it's been working ok for the last year, not spectacularly well but definitely ok. Worthy of further testing.

Edit 2: Actually, non-blue decks you may play against are likely to utilize a strategy using Chalice, Vial, Thalia, Elves, Lands (these are the few ways to efficiently combat the blue shell). Kolaghan's Command (and Abrade) is very good against most of these, and it also helps vs the grindy decks. Elves is a tough one which may merit some sideboard space. Lands are already covered.

[Sam Wetzel]

Has anyone here tried playing with Manamorphose in the main? I have found that it helps with card draw and with the color fixing if you're running the RW variant. if you turn one blood moon, you can have manamorphose for the enlightened tutor and still have a red to play a stone or a blast on something.

[polski]

@sroncor1 can you share your list please?

[sroncor1]

Sure I will post a list and some sideboarding ideas come Tuesday. I would post longer now, but I am a tad slammed. New primer is coming. Damn holidays.


Seth

[Kap'n Cook]

I played in two events this past weekend with the new shortcake list. Bad news is that I was 1-2 and 3-4 in them. Good news is that I was in almost every single game. I will also say that I did not play optimally at all and made many sequencing errors that probably could have shifted losses to wins had I been making truly correct decisions. Half of it is rust from not painting for a while and the other half is the difference in the build and still not being used to the various lines it gives you with copters. Two of my losses on the weekend were to grix delver where I had the game locked with Blood Moon and was beat down by 1 and 2 pyromancer tokens over 5+ turns of not drawing/resolving anything of worth. So it is at least slightly encouraging that it wasn't a complete blowout, although it is a little hard to keep up with those decks the longer the game goes, which definitely slants my preference towards going for faster victories. The list is still being tweaked and is still very much in flux, although I know that Seth and I have been running probably 72/75 of the same cards with decent initial results given that the list is essentially brand new. (only differences are number of duals vs basics, grave hate package, and whether a card should be side or main). Abrade was very good. When I have 100 matches or something like that finished I can post the data, although it will probably be within the new shortcake thread.

[sroncor1]

Updated list:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Plateau
1 Great Furnace
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountain

3 Lotus Petal
2 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter’s Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Enlightened Tutor

4 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Viashino Heretic( or your tutorable artifact hate of choice)
4 Smuggler’s Copter
4 Blood Moon

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Trinisphere
2 Pyroclasm
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Abrade

Nothing crazy to note. Jaya has been finally dropped as I find her really never sided in. I am working on testing a couple Abrades, as the ability to kill creatures and artifacts seems great against our weakness. This could easily be an additional Pyroclasm. Magus would be the next card to really consider cutting, but my gut tells me he is still strong enough, although I have been boarding him in less and less.

I was working on the primer this morning. Just finishing up the matchups and trying to get a loose boarding plan done for people to at least start with. I have found that I basically board different for games on the play and draw which is complicating how I want to approach it. Also I have found that I change my strategy based on my opponent which is probably stupid. Hopefully we can get the primer up soon for those who want to focus on Shortcake. I would probably want to get a little more testing in, but at this time it may be the best that we can get done. I will caution this will have less testing and games than previous configurations of the deck so we will all need to work on it. The real struggle so far has really been a matter of sequencing and seeing when to deploy Copter vs combo and in what match ups as the lines are vastly different from the SDT days. So many times I am still struggling with that in the testing and it requires me to go back and rewatch my games on mtgo, which is fucking painful.

Seth

[sroncor1]

2 things, that list was wrong I am sorry. There should be -1 blast and +1 Cannonist in the main deck. Second, the new primer is done. Jack is doing final edits on it and hopefully it will have the new thread started sometime tonight. The end google document was over 14 pages, sorry for the delay.

This thread has been a blast. Best wishes with the evolution of the deck moving forward! I will probably occasionally check in, but I don't think I will personally really reply anymore in here just bc its too hard to balance both and I want to try and keep the evolution in a clearly defined space to better serve as a resource for Shortcake.

Seth