Thanks Ish that is exactly what I was thinking. I might actually drop the extra Revoker/Needle to add in Shattering Spree. I only have the wincon of painter/stone, and jaya under a bridge. Personally I haven't been impressed with Koth/Chandra. But then again I suck with this deck xD
Koth has been underwhelming for me, too. However I still run him because of several reasons. Every time he's been in hand and they've Duressed/TS'd me, they've taken Koth. Even on turn one when I couldn't play him for another few turns. This lead me to think people over value koth and see him as a bigger threat. What this boils down to is that it's yet another must counter/deal with card against our opponents. Look at it that way, and know that if Koth sticks around he will win you the game. Otherwise, he eats a removal/discard spell and ties up their resources/time for a turn. Sometimes that is all we need to get our plan on track.
Plus, just once I want to ultimate him before I decide to cut the card. Consider this an Achievement Unlocked for this deck.
I ran virtually the same list again at our winter classic and managed to split first place. I battled through 3 UWR delver decks and burn among others to claim the prize. I managed to dodge 3 elves decks and UR omni (who I split first with).
10 Mountain
3 Red Fetchlands
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Recruiter
4 Painter
4 SSG
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
6 Blasts (2 REB/4 Pyro)
3 Top
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 Goblin Welder
1 Jaya Ballard
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Sudden Demise
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Manic Vandal
2 ratchet bomb
1 goblin welder
The sideboard was alright, ratchet bombs should have been cages for all the elves.... I just need to find more.
R1, 2-1 BURN
R2, 0-2 punishing kind with extirpate...
R3, 2-1 UWR delver
R4, 2-1 UWR delver with stifle
R5, BURN.... we ID, thank god.
Top 8, true name bant 2-1.
Top 4, UWR delver 2-0
Blood moon was really good all day. I jammed it when I needed to. Other times you wait for backup just because its auto win when it resolves.
I only once played koth all day. I ultimated him for the win vs Bant.
Welder was amazing as always, I didn't get to use demise or cage enough to comment on them.
I didn't miss lightning bolts.
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Going up against burn round 1 and winning must feel so good. Congrats on the finish man!Originally Posted by mcbain
Currently playing:
Imperial Painter
One of the few Painter players in SoCal...
I hear ya about Koth. Rarely does he hit the table and it's been a long time dream of mine to go ultimate. Welder is also better than I give it credit. Therefore, I've updated my list wtih a few swaps; the manabase, more welder and bench one koth. I'll be going forward to a GPT with this list, no regrets!
7 Mountain
1 Great Furnace
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
1 Lotus Petal
4 Blood Moon
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Goblin Welder
1 Koth of the Hammer
3 Ensnaring Bridge
Sideboard:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Sudden Demise
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Martyr of Ashes
1 Manic Vandal
I'm taking nearly this exact 75 to a local event today. Will post my results and impressions.
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Ya, I was so sad when I saw the posting. The guy is known for playing burn well.
I left 3 blood moons in after sideboard, they are good for keeping your ancient tombs mountains to preserve life.
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What are your differences?
Ended up 4-2 (~34 players). Will shoot up some details when I have a few more minutes.
Minimal:
MB: (from yours)
different fetches :)
-1 great furnace, +1 mountain. (Prob gonna play 1-2 furnace now though)
Sideboard
-1 grafdigger's
-1 martyr
-1 revoker
+ 1 tormod's crypt
+1 Thorn of amethyst
+1 Magus
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Not bad. When was boarding in Magus worth it?
Without main deck spellskite I feel any more than two magus is to much. I almost always board one out if I'm on the draw. Decks like jund or delver fold to blood moon effects, trouble with magus is protecting it. The last thing you want is to spirit guide a magus into a bolt.
I have never used tormods crypt to any real effect that could have been done by cage other than shrinking two nimble mongooses (mongeese?).
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to Kap'n Cook and anybody else with experience in having a white splash, do you have any further recommendations about the white splash?
I playtested the splash quite some times and came to loving it as it really feels way more consistent than mono red. The Enlightened Tutors allow for assembling the combo faster, but more often they let me find the hate that is needed like Ensnaring Bridge, Ethersworn Canonist, Trinisphere without having to put too many SB cards in the main deck and therewith to shave too many other important cards from the deck.
A few questions are still open in my mind:
1. I prefer my mana accerleration suite to be 1 Lotus Petal and 4 Simian Spirit Guides as the SSG are awesome in so many situations, like providing a possibility to pay for softcounters and FoW type countering with blasts. Still in some games with a resolved moon you may get stuck with white cards in hand under the bridge and another petal would be all that you can dream of. How does your deck look like in this aspect?
2. I do love the one off Ethersworn Canonist main, as it already won a few first matches and being able to tutor for it with 6 recruiters/tutors makes it virtually always available when it is required. Also I do love my seven blast effects in the deck and with so many wastelands in my local meta, 20 lands seem to be a necessity. So in order to get the Ethersworn Canonist into the first 60, I ended up shaving a Blood Moon. For obvious reasons this really sucks, but still it feels okayish with the two additional tutor effects allowing to search for a Blood Moon. What are your experiences with the Canonist? And have you tested shaving a moon or is that an absolute no go in your eyes?
For reference my current list:
Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
5 Mountain
1 Great Furnace
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Plateau
(I am thinking about a fifth fetchland instead of a solland or mountain)
Creatures:
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Goblin Welder
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
Instants & Sorceries:
4 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Enlightened Tutor
Other:
4 Grindstone
3 Blood Moon
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Lotus Petal
2 Ensnaring Bridge
Sideboard:
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Blood Moon
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Manic Vandal
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Martyr of Ashes
2 Sudden Demise
3 Grafdigger's Cage
Last edited by zangoasyl; 01-21-2014 at 10:07 AM. Reason: added links to cards
I still really like the white splash for nearly all the same reasons you already mentioned. After I address your questions I will post some more thoughts.
1) I was debating this very topic a few pages ago and took to testing it out. I ran a mismatched ssg that served as a proxy for the 4th petal. Yes, SSG is awesome and provides that surprise angle of attack that tempo decks can't see coming. For white, though, the 2nd petal was better a larger percentage of the time. I run a ton of welders so that is one reason it's better, since I can weld back random things if I need to cast a tutor with a used petal or store a painter/revoker in the yard in response to a stp. And looking at the daze scenario, the 2nd petal just means that they either won't daze it and they won't lose tempo or they will knowingly and force you to use it. The only downside is if they have fow+daze and no other blue card and they try to daze something game ending, ssg wins it. Not being a creature came up very few times. The one last scenario I have liked with petal is when activating grindstone. Welder turns the grindstone into a mana for blast usage/daze paying for blast effects.
2) I thought about canonist main but never took to trying it out. I am still unsure but many times I feel like you can grab the other half of the combo using e tutor. Recruiter into it may be kind of slow if you don't know what you are playing against the first turn or two of the game. Not sure yet, however. I will test it out later.
Regarding Blood Moon, I feel sort of okay with it? I know what you mean by wanting to cut it. You want one moon in play and then never see any again. But if anything, running e tutor makes it safe to cut the 2nd magus from the 75. Blood Moon is better the majority of the time and is the reason turn 1 wins happen. For that reason alone I wouldn't cut the 4th moon, even if it is much easier to find in the deck. So as far as shaving the moon, I'm okay with cutting them down in post-board games on the draw against decks likely to fetch up basics like maverick, which frees up a slot if you decide to drop the magus in the sideboard.
Overall with white there are a variety of things I like that it offers over mono-red. Mainly hate cards and a more consistent combo against the faster decks in the format. It sort of evens up the playing field while decreasing free moon wins. There are definitely avenues I haven't explored yet, but I was talking with Seth a lot this morning about possibilities. He runs a peacekeeper main and 4 rest in peace in the board and has been playing white for a long time. One thing that might be good we discussed is a 3 card stoneforge package in the side of stoneforge, jitte, and a non-blue sword.
I'm looking to get back into Legacy, and I always enjoyed this deck, having played it from 2008-2011 or so. I remember I played a URw version that ran LED and Salvagers as an alternative win in case Servant got Extirpated, and I had a Magma Mine in the board that I could board in and tutor up and combo kill with infinite mana in case Grindstone bit the dust too.
has that strategy fallen out of flavour with hate like Rest in Peace?
This sounds more UR painter with Intuition and Trinket Mage than our deck
Jep, I did the same thing. But it only happened once that I wished for it to be a petal, a few times it was better being a ssg and most of the time it really didn't matter.
Do you still run the decklist from a few pages back? But I really can see the point here...
AWESOME - that would have helped me sooo many times! I think that scenario just changed my mind!
Well, my meta has a lot of TES around and I usually know my opponent and have an educated guess what I am facing. If I know I am against fast combo, I always go for the canonist before going for the combo, but obviously this is of no help in a larger tournament.
Yeah, it just feels wrong to cut a moon... Even though I do not know how to change that in a better way... I really have to think this over again.
Peacekeeper seems so vulnerable, but yeah, the variety of white hate is awesome. But Rest in Peace? Seriously? Destroy your own combo instead of taking graveyard hate like Grafdigger's Cage that also helps much against Elfes? For now I can't think of going the equipment route as it seems like a bad combination of other decks, but well, I'm most definitely no pro player so my gut feeling probably isn't worth too much...
Well, I started this deck just recently and it is the first time I hear about this strategy... Sounds nice, especially as Auriok Salvagers seems nice in the white splash in general! I don't really like the idea of relying on a 3 card combo, but I have a feeling that others will have a more proficient answer on that one!
By the way, I haven't seen Rest in Peace that often lately and even if they play it, I'm not really afraid of permanent based hate as you typically can blast it sooner or later.
Rest in Peace does not stop your own combo. It in fact aids it because it stops eldradi shuffling. It is also the best graveyard hate spell there is if you get it down, since decks will expect artifacts and bring in hate and pithing needle. Only natures claim stops it.
The bomberman kill is too hard to pull off in this deck and takes up too much space for dead cards.
The equipment route is untested so I can't pass judgment on it.
My list is probably the one posted a few pages back. Its also on the first page of the thread.
My mistake, thanks A LOT for clearing that one up. The color check obviously is independent of where the cards go!
So the only drawbacks of Rest in Peace over Grafdigger's Cage are the degraded Goblin Welders and the inability to interfere with elfes. I think I can probably life with that or I'll split up the hate.
Again my bad - haven't checked the first page in ages :-)
Thanks lot for your ultra fast responses and the valuable information! I'm looking forward to read further developments with the white splash!
Yo kap'n, can I have the mono red control version of the deck on the front page? I'm ready for this. Others have taken my list on and it is distinctly different from the splash version or even the mono R version on the front page. Sideboarding doesn't mishmash between any of the decks, making it a different beast all together. Thoughts?
I think he meant something like this :
1 Auriok Salvagers
2 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Trinket Mage
Creatures [14]
1 Aether Spellbomb
4 Brainstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
3 Grindstone
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thirst for Knowledge
Spells [25]
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Flooded Strand
2 Great Furnace
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plateau
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
Lands [21]
(link http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=788916)
I considered it for a while, since it looks freaking awesome to play, but it's expensive and eschews the all-powerful Moon effects for another combo
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