Originally Posted by GundamGuy
I'm not going below 3 welders since it solves so many issues. Counters, discard, decay, bolt, liliana, chalice etc. I want to draw one naturally so three it is. The first will probably die so no biggie. It's also a tempo play since welder gets respect and the opponent kills it right away. If it lives then great, I get to protect the combo pieces and bridge.
When asking about painter before the GP, lejay asked about spirit as well. My response to him and others is why? What matchup is it solving that isn't good already?
Sent from my iPadOk great thoughts and ideas guys. About the number of welders, I think the correct number is somewhere between 2-4. You hardly ever want to tutor for him but sometimes that is the only way to get a grindstone. He is a must answer card bc he turns off discard and counters like Jack said. I imagine there is a proper list with 4 welders but I am not sure of the other 56. I have often toyed around with a third either in the main and in the board. If I were to add another welder main to my list I would really want two more artifacts main, which is how Jack's list is built to optimize welder.
About Ajani, it's funny, Jack mentioned him just the other day. He is strong however, I would feel really bad about using your window of a white source to cast him. He doesn't really win the game so much as augment your own game plan. It's for that reason I think he would be a far third behind Koth and Chandra.
About the number of E tutor in the list. I will not lie I stole 3 from Hollywood many years ago. I have toyed with more but never really tested the idea. The basically idea is that you want four copies of any card if you want to draw it every game, 3 if you only want one copy every game at most, and 1 as a tutor able target. I'm no longer sure why you would play two copies of a card unless that is basically all you have room for sort of like my list and SDT. I would love three in a perfect world but I don't have room. So I run 2. But since I've cut to 2 I've toyed with dropping them completely bc you draw them so infrequently when it matters that you forget their utility. I am not sure if the e tutor count should be 2-4, but I have always tested three based on I want to see it but I would prefer not seeing it twice in one game.
If anyone is looking to build the mana base for a white splash start with my list. Then modify from there. There really is no need for a basic plains and I think if you play enough you will see it is pretty stable. I have gone back and forth on the great furnace. I think you should def run the artifact land if you run 7 sol lands, just knowing you are losing a small amount of explosiveness for greater utility. In the 8 sol land list( like I run) I am less sure of that. Maybe it is small sample size but I have been hurt in recent weeks by the furnace and would have wine a couple more matches and basically several hundred dollars if it had been a mountain.
Just a few thoughts.
Btw Jandax's primer is pretty spot on and is a great jumping on point for anyone as it is fairly up to date with the ever changing meta. And the third part may be the best and is something I want to continue to work on with him as I think it is both an amazing idea and a very valuable reference( I know David I haven't even talked with you yet about it)
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
They should be published in full over the next coming three weeks, so I'll link them to the OP for Jack to update. I agree, the third section should be an on going list to which we should constantly amend. If it gets too messy on the OP, we can always start another thread with a tight first page that contains everything.
Hey everyone! I have recently invested in this deck (Rw) on MTGO. Are there any videos of this version in action?
Thanks!
No videos that really showcase the white strengths. I may start streaming, though
If you do, I will be sure to watch. Keep us (well, me) updated!
So, I've been playing around with top vs tutor numbers on MTGO a lot and it's amazing how much worse the deck got when I cut tops. The biggest problem is that the land count is low enough that the top was the only good way to draw into them I think. I ended up cutting a welder (down to 2) and now play 3 top and 3 etutor and the deck has never ran better. I also put one copy of Ajani in the board, particularly for the miracles matchup and it has been honestly pretty fantastic. I think I will continue to split one Ajani and one Koth in the board.
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I would watch! Just make sure to have them available in your accounts history also!
I concur! i would follow you, that way we can discuss plays on the fly (with 20 seconds of twitch delay)
Honestly I still don't get what Ajani Vengeant is accomplishing against the Miracles matchup... What are you tapping which is so critical to them? Also unless Miracles is over represented in your meta I wouldn't devote a sideboard slot specifically to the Miracles match-up.
Other news I maybe playing RW painter this weekend at a SCG invitational qualifier. Might just stick with mono red. I'll let everyone know how it goes either way.
Seth nailed it when he said that ajani is a distant third to Koth and chandra (respectively). Especially in the Miracles matchup, which is glacially slow from their end, Koth can put some real pressure on them.
I keep a koth in the main for miricles (a few in my meta) and he has won me a many games when stuck behind there counterbalance
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Okay, I will concede that Ajani may not be worth it. I still like him, but I don't know that I like him enough to take up a valuable slot in the SB. On that subject, one more consideration. I played this deck in a local Legacy tourney last noc, and my match-ups were:
1. Food-Chain combo with 3 Aldrazi guys and crap-tons of elves...auto-lose. Game one I have a revoker on Food-Chain and a bridge in play, but I have no way to win other than finding Jaya and dome him. Well, he found his terrastadon via Empath first and I lose. Game 2 I bring in alt win condition (1 koth + helm/R.I.P.) but he goes off on like turn 3.
2. Reanimator - lose to turn 2 griselbrand 2/3 games.
3. that Dragon-Stompy goblin deck - lose. I have my combo out twice but don't ever get a chance to activate as he has one million answers from searching up with moggcatcher.....drop
Horrible night. For one, really sad I took peacekeeper out of the board, as he would have been really good in the first two match-ups. He just seemed so fragile. Secondly, I know these are not typical match-ups one would see (except Reanimator), but I feel like this deck needs a better answer to other creature combo decks. For one, people are starting to play Pod in legacy. There is also Aluren, sneak/show, reanimator, 12-post and the other decks above. I considered torpor orb in the board, which would help a little. But I don't know if the benefit outweighs the cost of losing our imperial recruiters. Then I considered one copy of Humility, which I think I like. It does also have the draw-back of shutting off some of our own creatures, but the upside against a deck like reanimator or 12 post is huge. It also doesn't shut off our actual combo. I do know it's 2 white, and I would probably have to adjust the mana base a little for it. I also am concerned that it would make all opponent's dudes 1/1 and a swarm could get under bridge. But for the most part, you probably wouldn't bring it in against those decks anyway. It would also make firebolt or sudden demise really good. Just another card to consider. PLEASE don't tell me how I"m getting away from the combo aspect of the deck....I get it. I'm more looking for any experience people have had playing with or against humility. thanks.
p.s. for all you Koth lovers out there, just imagine koth activations with Humility in play!
^ Anyone who plays Humility against Painter deserves to get Kothed to death. And Humility occurs on a level lower (6) than color and ability changes (5), so the timestamp happens after Blood Moon changes non basics into Mountains and Painter makes all things a certain color. Plus, you already play RIP, against Eldrazi and the like, that's a helluva card that supports your main combo
I'll second that! D:
Don't be discouraged! Painter is very strong in the real meta right now. As for food chain and dragonstompy (i.e., budget decks) you might have to make some edits to the normal list. Or just force more combo rather than trying to interact.
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@Drude1- those were some rough match ups but as others have said that isn't a real meta. Some of those Boucher are terrible, to put it bluntly. You def don't want or need humility. Most likely I would say try a stock white splash list and test the ever loving shit out of it. But this is my advice to basically everyone on the board. Your best chance is to test one of those lists first before trying to innovate as the deck is far more complex than it first appears. If you add to many moving parts while learning how to play the deck you are destined to have trouble.
With the exception of like four or maybe five cards in the 75, I would say at least the shortcake lists are pretty tight and tuned for the entire legacy format. The minor differences between jack and mine are due to the different ways we want to solve similar problems and a slight variation in the way we approach a fee decks. I will leave the monored questions to more capable players
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
I die a little every time one of you calls the Rw deck shortcake
So I'm confused, is it then your allegation that humility would be a good thing to consider or unnecessary? And if not humility, any other suggestions?
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I'm sure David was talking about opposing Humilities. A double white card for this deck is not an option....
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