Don't need fetches when you have ponder, preordain, merchant scroll, time spiral, intuition.
Brainstorm for most combo decks when I use it it's to hide combo pieces from discard.
Most of the cards I end up putting back I still want to draw.
If not I scry or ponder them away, usually when I'm looking for a land.
i don't understand how this isn't strictly worse when you have marginal hands and brainstorm shuffle isn't just better. won't there be times when you need to shuffle and your opponent counters your shuffle spell?
i understand if you're afraid of stifle, but other than that is the life that important? (maybe it is?)
-rob
Of course it's worse, unless you are absolutely plagued by Stifle.
People need to stop interpreting too much into random 5-0 lists.
I rarely if ever shuffle away cards.
Brainstorm and fetchlands make a plethora of unkeepable hands keepable, just one of the reasons the card is the strongest card in Legacy. There's no reason behind not playing fetchlands. Maybe if you want to cut some then sure, but playing none at all is just not optimal.
I actually think cutting Fetchlands is a reasonable decision, Brainatorm is still playable without shuffle effects and the way Stifle has gained in popularity protecting your manabase from disruption is one of the most critical aspects of the deck.
There is probably a happy medium, but the extreme itself isn't unreasonable considering how integral your land drops are to the combo.
Activating candels & Paying X into Blue Sun's Zenith on modo takes so long! I'm having to maindeck a Remand and go for Brain Freeze just to save time. Had to cut capsize from the sideboard too because going infinite with a tapped candel just sucks up WAY too much time. Modo is weird.
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
I went 2-2 at our 4 round weekly last night with the following list. Would have been 3-1 but in G3 vs Eldrazi I spiraled with 5 lands in play, 4 floating into 2 counters, brainstorm & 4 lands.... the brainstorm found me a ponder which showed me land / land / land and off the shuffle I drew a land.... Welcome to Brickville, population me.
2 Spell Pierce
1 Meditate
1 Intuition
4 High Tide
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
3 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Time Spiral
3 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Turnabout
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
12 Island
6 Fetches
Sideboard
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Defense Grid
1 Snap
1 Teferi's Realm
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wipe Away
This is basically the 5-0 list from the daily the other day. I only own 2 candles & removed the swan songs & probs cause I just don't like them in this list. I went up to 4 FoW and 4 Spirals, if I was playing again today I'd switch the 4th spiral for the 4th Cunning Wish, I feel for newer players having that 4th wish allows them to wish more to get themselves out of problems.
Think I'm doing the Legacy Challenge on Modo today (7-9-2017) at 11 EST! I'll post how it goes & the results! Wahoo!!!
-edit-
Well, went 2-5, got a win on the BYE and then an opponent timing out. Every loss was 1-2 except round 3. Then did a Modern league after and went 4-1 with titanshift. Weird day, tournament was tough. I don't remember there being so much disruption, there was more stuff going to my graveyard unresolved than resolved (Discard / Counterspells everywhere) Is this the new norm? I basically have been out of action for about 2 years and I dont remember it being like this.
Last edited by feline; 07-09-2017 at 08:18 PM.
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
I've now played about 15 or so individual games with High Tide and have managed two single wins, both of which were Game 1. The first win was against a ANT, wielded by a player new to Legacy, and the second was today against Lands.
The three decks that I face regularly are:
1. BUG Delver - pretty fairly matched but always seems to have counters/disruption on the ready. A much more experienced player than myself, so I think that his experience helps him anticipate and time his plays better. Lilianna hitting the board is awful for my hand.
2. RUG Lands - Almost always death by Dark Depths Thespian Stage combo. I have to start w/ at least one counter in hand for Chalice for 1 or Exploration. Game 1 is always a little closer, and once sideboarding happens, I don't generally stand a chance. Multiple Chalices, Trinisphere, and Sphere of Resistance slow me down far too much.
3. Eldrazi - Hand disruption, T1 Chalice for 1, Thorn of Amethyst, and so many spaghetti monsters... This rarely makes it to T5.
My deck:
4x High Tide
3x Turnabout
2x Candelabra
4x Time Spiral
4x Merchant Scroll
3x Cunning Wish
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Preordain
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
4x Force of Will
3x Flusterstorm
2x Spell Pierce
1x Snap
12x Island
6x Fetchlands
Sideboard:
1x Turnabout
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Snap
1x Wipe Away
1x Meditate
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Echoing Truth
1x Pact of Negation
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Rebuild
1x Capsize
1x Intuition
Still room for more cards here.
In general, I start off feeling pretty good, using a cantrip or two here and there to try and assemble the pieces (4 lands, High Tide, Time Spiral, and some counters), but feel like I never quite make it. Even on games that go to turns 6+, I find it difficult to get what I need in my hand.
My point being, I guess, that hand disruption and counters are rampant, and drastically affect our ability to go off. That said, I'm enjoying playing High Tide, even if my record is something like 2-15 for individual games, not even rounds.
Yeah, I hadn't considered Chain of Vapor before. Thanks. I'm pretty new to playing games with sideboards as well, so learning how to sideboard is like learning to play again. Mostly a casual EDH player. Luckily I have lots of coworkers who also play (some of whom play competitively) so I always have folks to playtest with.
Made a few minor tweaks to fairly good success this week. Having more Spell Pierce in the main has helped a ton. I'm still not winning post-sideboard against Lands, but I went 3-1 vs Eldrazi Aggro, which has historically been a difficult deck for me to beat. BUG Delver is my next deck to figure out how to defeat. I'm prepping to play a Legacy side event this weekend at GP Toronto, so lots of practice games. Thanks for the help everyone. This thread is fantastic.
4x High Tide
3x Turnabout
2x Candelabra
4x Time Spiral
4x Merchant Scroll
3x Cunning Wish
1x Intuition
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Preordain
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
4x Force of Will
1x Flusterstorm
3x Spell Pierce
12x Island
6x Fetchlands
Sideboard:
1x Turnabout
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Snap
1x Spell Pierce
1x Wipe Away
1x Meditate
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Echoing Truth
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Rebuild
3x Tormod's Crypt
Good catch. It's a 4th Preordain. Most decks are very similar, so I try to keep the maindeck focused on combo and protection. I've had great luck in having a Spell Pierce and/or FoW in my opening hand almost every game, which helps out so much. I find that for turns 1 and 2, I concern my self w/ land drops, Brainstorm at the end of their turn to keep mana open for protection, and then by turns 3 and 4 I'm concentrating more on getting the pieces I need for combo.
The first few games I played, I was way too overzealous in cantriping early to try and get combo pieces but that meant that I didn't have land up for counters. Since slowing down and relaxing in the beginning, my games have gone much more smoothly. Also using a notepad for High Tide, Storm, and floating Mana is very helpful.
Apologies for double posting, but I played my first ever tournament today, Legacy side event at GP Toronto, today. I went 2:2 with High Tide, which sounds decent, but in reality, it was not.
Round 1 vs Loam, 1:2 :
I comboed off on turn 5 w/ a Candelabra in play and he scooped after I hit ~30 floating mana.
Game two he crushed me w/ Knights after landing a Thoughtseize and Chains of Mephistoles early on.
Game three, I fizzled... I had 5 High Tides resolved, and on my last Spiral, I pulled 4 lands, Turnabout, and two counters.
Round two vs Elves, Bye:
My actual opponent no-showed, so I got the win. I ended up playing casually against a really fun Elves deck that stomped me both games. Game 1, I nearly comboed out but fizzled, and game two he Craterhoofed me before I knew what happened.
Round 3 vs a custom Prowess build, 0:2 :
Game 1 I was Cabal Therapied, Thoughtsiezed, and Duressed far too quickly. He played Young Pyromancer and a Monastery Swiftspear, and then used instants to buff and swing hard.
Game 2 I felt more confident as I brought in more counters and some bounces, but it wasn't enough. Dead on T3.
Round 4 vs Tendril Storm, 2:1 :
Game 1, I stopped him comboing off on T2 with a double FoW, which then drew the game out a bunch as I waited until his last card in hand to use the 2nd counter. In the end though, he was able to whittle my hand down until he was able to go off again and win it. He had to leave, so I got the win though.
All in all, it was a really fun day, despite losing 7 out of 8 games played, and most importantly, I learned a few things:
* Folks really enjoy watching High Tide being played. Every match we had a crowd of onlookers.
* Turn 4 just isn't fast enough unless you have a perfect hand, which is different for every match.
* sideboarding out a High Tide in games 2/3 is fantastic to protect the combo
Last edited by jasonious; 07-24-2017 at 10:01 AM.
Hi there, pretty average legacy player here. After the top ban I left DDFT for my 2nd favourite legacy deck, high tide.
Thoughts on Probes? Went 4-1 today on league today with the following (loss was to turbo depths, made quite a few errors there too so perhaps could have won that one);
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Turnabout
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
1 Intuition
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Time Spiral
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
11 Island
SB:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Wipe Away
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Defense Grid
1 Teferi's Realm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
I added them (and cut the land) after fizzling one to many times with tide->spiral. The fact that the card literally feels like cheating is a bonus.
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