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Thread: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

  1. #21
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Well based on a few perspectives:
    You could cut the Spell Pierce since you have Flusterstorm access, but arguing against, the option to use Spell Pierce against Planeswalkers, Artifacts & Enchantments might be something you want to keep as an option there.

    You could cut the sideboard Meditate for the Intuition directly, since it only takes 12 mana to Wish > Intuition > Time Spiral, but arguing against, the option to Wish > Meditate > +1 cantrip if you're at 11 or less mana, is an option you'd be losing if you feel that's vital, even though I've been leaning toward cutting Meditate more and more, I still can't ignore that note myself.

    You could cut the Echoing Truth since against most "multiples" you'd use it against, you can just Spiral & cast Wipe Away on it again, but you also lose the option to Echoing Truth an army of 1/1 goblin tokens in some match ups where you might actually want to do that as an example.

    Basically, whatever you decide to remove in place of the Intuition, from the many perspectives, you'd be giving up something, you just have to find what is the weakest for how you play, what you're willing to give up, and chose that spot.

    Based on that, you could argue 1 of the Wipe Aways since Counterbalance is on the "out" right now, thank you Abrupt Decay & while you also can't predict your match ups for Sunday, the likelyhood of playing against U/W control isn't as high as it was a few months ago, though it is still a deck, and a form of U/W control did win last weekend.
    Last edited by feline; 03-13-2013 at 07:13 PM.
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  2. #22
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Thank you so much for the extensive information

    Came right on time, playing hightide in dc this weekend :)

  3. #23
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    That makes at least 3 people from the forums that are hitting DC with High Tide this weekened, I wanna see the deck own! More High Tide the better!, at least, for High Tide players. ^.^
    Last edited by feline; 03-13-2013 at 07:13 PM.
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  4. #24
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by feline View Post
    Based on that, you could argue 1 of the Wipe Aways since Counterbalance is on the "out" right now, thank you Abrupt Decay & while you also can't predict your match ups for Sunday, the likelyhood of playing against U/W control isn't as high as it was a few months ago, though it is still a deck, and a form of U/W control did win last weekend.
    I would be careful with this statement. I wrote this in the TinFin Primer based on the last Grand Prix Trials for GP Strasbourg I played in every one seems to dust off his combo Deck to beat the fair Decks like Jund. In this situation playing Miracles is the logical step to be one step in front of the Metagame. Espescially after Miracles won the last two SCG Opens this opionen could only be reinforced during the next weeks. At least until so many play Miracles that it is time to bring back the Anti Miracle Decks.

    Nice new Primer. I am also interested in this Deck but so far I only have one Candelabra, so I will have to wait a little bit more before I play this deck.

  5. #25
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Hei Guys

    I'm new in this Forum.
    Well i'm from Switzerland and a serious High Tide Player:D
    High Tide is for me the best Deck ever.
    Now this is my List at the Moment:

    4 Candelabra of Tawnos (For me 4 Candels are a obligation, i mean they are so good and all instant can be found)

    4 Brainstorm
    3 Cunning Wish
    3 Flusterstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 High Tide
    1 Meditate
    1 Snap
    1 Turnabout ( 1off because tutorable)
    1 Wipe Away (We have a lot Uw/x Miracle controll in Switzerland)

    4 Merchant Scroll
    4 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    4 Time Spiral

    12 Island
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Scalding Tarn
    2 Polluted Delta

    Sideboard:

    3 Defense Grid (Dont know but i like them more than Pact of Negation, for the putting on the field)
    1 Blue sun's Zenith
    1 Brainfreeze ( i use 1 in Sb when i cant make enough mana for the Zenith Kill but can make enough Storm.)
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Intuition
    1 Meditate
    1 Mindbreak trap
    1 Misdirection (Well a Metachoice, lot of Hymn to..and can change the decay/Bolt to a creature;) and 5th FoW)
    1 Rebuild
    1 Spell Pierce (a Counter more to Counter a Lili maybe Chalice)
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Turnabout
    1 Wipe Away


    Well i hope your enjoy my List:)
    Now the Treath have a High Tide player more:P

    Greets from Switzerland

    Pdingo

  6. #26
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    I have to ask in relation to the above list, very rarely do you see a list that doesn't max out on Turnabout, how long have you been doing that for & what drew you to come to the conclusion of running just 1 main 1 side instead of 3 main 1 side? I actually personally do something like that myself, but that is my own perception, it's rare to find someone else that does so I feel compelled to ask. Less Turnabout's does mean you are relying on the tutors more to get to it.

    Aside from that, welcome & keep representing High Tide ^.^ as everyone here knows, the deck is just awesome to play!
    Last edited by feline; 03-13-2013 at 07:13 PM.
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  7. #27
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    I play 1 because you have 7 Tutor for Turnabout and with 4 Candels i think, you only need 1 maybe 2 Turnabouts i think. I mean you use it more to Tap controll Decks out at end of turn like RUG or Miracle maybe for MUD and tap a Sphere.
    Its for each people different.
    For me the List doing perform very well. :)

    And sorry for my bad english-.-

  8. #28
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    I understand that very well, I play the same way, with all the tutors I never have issues with getting to a Turnabout when needed, and I also max out on Candelabra's because of how I feel about running them in relation to the specifics as to, why to run them, I also understand that everyone has their own playstyles and such and everyone is different, so I try not to jump on people unless I feel it's absolutely necessary to say "hey, don't do that" etc. Basically I just asked because, I was not expecting to run into someone else that saw things the same in such a way that they too would run their list like that, your maindeck is actually 60 for 60 cards exactly what I ran in Seattle a few months ago. High Tide decks at their core are the same, so the same 50 something cards is expected, but exactly the same on what is a non traditional list, well I guess all I can say is thank you for sharing, I was pleasantly surprised.
    Last edited by feline; 03-13-2013 at 07:13 PM.
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  9. #29
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    yep that's cool.
    Well i play the next GPT Trial for Strassbourg with High Tide:)
    The Last Time i was 1-1-1 then i have to consede because i was to Sick.-.-

  10. #30

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    @ Pdingo

    We had a lot of discussions in the previous thread about what to maximize, Candles or Turnabout. The outcome was that Turnabout is really superior to Candles because:

    - You can tap the lands of your opponent.
    - You can pitch it to Force.
    - You can Fog your opponent.
    - You can untap your Candles when you have more than 1 on the field.
    - It is not sensible to Needle and Stifle.

    Playing only one, means you want to Scroll into it which is very slow against deck like RUG or Merfolk. Moreover, your scroll can be required for a High Tide. There are also some marginal cases where it is interesting to have a split between Turnabout and Candles (mainly against Surgical, which was one of the target of my opponent in the last tournament, so it happens). In my opinion, Candle plays a bit better around Daze and Pierce but that's the only advantage (plus the fact that they are awesome with Turnabouts and Capsize).

    What are your arguments to run more Candles? I guess you want to maximize the chance of having a powerful Turnabout, but that's post Spiral so it matters really less. One strange idea I got about a 4 Candles list is to play Thirst for Knowledge and more Tops. I am curious how this would behave, but probably poorly.

    @ Meditate

    We had a debate about cutting or not the Meditates (or keep 1 or 2). Considering my last tournament plus additional tests against Stoneblade, I think they should be cut. The only time when I am happy to see them is post Spiral and very slow control decks. As I said, I don't even like them so much against Stoneblade. I think about few cards to replace the 2 I have main board:

    - BSZ
    - Preordain (I run 3 and a Top right now)
    - Impulse
    - Peer through Depths
    - Intuition (not a big fan of having 1 main board because it felt clunky post side board)
    - The 4th Flusterstorm
    - Gitaxian Probe

    I realized also that I really don't like spells costing 3 mana or more. Wishes are a necessary evil in this case.

    @ Another question:

    How do you feel about Pact of Negation main board? (I already run 3 Flusterstorm main board)

  11. #31

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    @Pdingo
    Read the last couple of pages (edit: in the other thread), there are a few arguments for both cards:)

    @untaps... again:)
    Im of the opinion that untap-effects are the worst cards in the deck (followed by cunning wish and perhaps FoW, allthough a necessary evil), so keeping those to a minimum is preferred. The only reason to add untap-effects is to add speed against "uninteractive", decks like burn/goblins/elves etc, at the cost of consistency. Untaps are NOT needed to goldfish turn4 because hight tide-spiral-spiral-bsz on yourself->wish->turnabout->bsz your opponent is good enough, with a few high tides here and there.
    I can see myself playing only a singleton turnabout maindeck and 4 candelabras in my board if the meta is full of hymn to tourachs.

    @PoN main
    I don't like it... Atleast not now where discard and fast combo is more common than force of will/daze/reb/pierce. Counterspells are often used on your opponent's turn these days...
    PoN is great against control and against those, slow, decks we have wishes to get that pact. I would max out on flusterstorms before I add my first PoN.

    @Meditate
    I still don't like it... But I can see it beeing atleast a one-of maindeck. You get a lot of options for a little cost playing one (since it's scrollable) but the second copy adds very little IMO.

  12. #32
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by TiMeWaLk View Post
    @ Pdingo

    We had a lot of discussions in the previous thread about what to maximize, Candles or Turnabout. The outcome was that Turnabout is really superior to Candles because:

    - You can tap the lands of your opponent.
    - You can pitch it to Force.
    - You can Fog your opponent.
    - You can untap your Candles when you have more than 1 on the field.
    - It is not sensible to Needle and Stifle.

    Playing only one, means you want to Scroll into it which is very slow against deck like RUG or Merfolk. Moreover, your scroll can be required for a High Tide. There are also some marginal cases where it is interesting to have a split between Turnabout and Candles (mainly against Surgical, which was one of the target of my opponent in the last tournament, so it happens). In my opinion, Candle plays a bit better around Daze and Pierce but that's the only advantage (plus the fact that they are awesome with Turnabouts and Capsize).

    What are your arguments to run more Candles? I guess you want to maximize the chance of having a powerful Turnabout, but that's post Spiral so it matters really less. One strange idea I got about a 4 Candles list is to play Thirst for Knowledge and more Tops. I am curious how this would behave, but probably poorly.

    @ Meditate

    We had a debate about cutting or not the Meditates (or keep 1 or 2). Considering my last tournament plus additional tests against Stoneblade, I think they should be cut. The only time when I am happy to see them is post Spiral and very slow control decks. As I said, I don't even like them so much against Stoneblade. I think about few cards to replace the 2 I have main board:

    - BSZ
    - Preordain (I run 3 and a Top right now)
    - Impulse
    - Peer through Depths
    - Intuition (not a big fan of having 1 main board because it felt clunky post side board)
    - The 4th Flusterstorm
    - Gitaxian Probe

    I realized also that I really don't like spells costing 3 mana or more. Wishes are a necessary evil in this case.

    @ Another question:

    How do you feel about Pact of Negation main board? (I already run 3 Flusterstorm main board)
    I am big on 4/4/4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain myself, however you basically have that if your 4th Preordain is a Top.

    Gitaxian Probe is something that I thought about when that came up, but I always play picking up as many counter's along the way as I can anyway, so I just act like they have the worst case scenario hand possible, so whether I see it or not it's "meh" The advantage though is seeing their hand with nothing means "Oh I can go off right now instead of digging for more stuff." So I see that point of view, but personally I'd likely never run the Probe package.

    4th Flusterstorm, I love that card, I toy with 3 main 1 side & just straight 4 main at times, though some people like having 1 as a wish target since it is a unique spell. But against most of the decks where Flusterstorm really shines, you will want it in hand so you can use it early, -vs- waiting till your turn 4 or later where you can wish for it & use it, since Flusterstorm is awesome against discard earlier than that, or against opposing, faster storm decks like Belcher / Ad Nauseam storm decks, etc. Even against a turn 1 or 2 Show & Tell, you want that Flusterstorm in hand.

    For Meditate, I've actually cut it completely, though I still have a month before my next SCG Open, it's looking likely that if I even run Meditate at all it'll just be 1 total, but right now I am currently messing around with 1 main / 1 side Intuition, since the focus on Time Spiral works nicely.

    Peer through depths, I admit I haven't seen that card since it was in type II.

    As far as maindecking a Blue Sun's Zenith goes, I hate having dead cards pre combo, so I don't have anything maindeck that is currently, my maindeck pact of negation, is just another flusterstorm, there's no meditate, no BSZenith, or whatever else.

    Impulse, I think I might have to look that up I don't actually remember specifically what that does.

    I suppose in the end, I'd just vote for the 4th preordain or a maindeck intuition between the options listed, or maindecking the 4th flusterstorm, if you don't have any pacts main, if you have 3 flusters 1 pact main, then that's probably fine. But that's just me. Based on the average decklist and not my personal input, the evidence compels me to argue putting in a maindeck Blue Sun's Zenith. That does mean that against opposing extractions, if they do make you discard a wish and then extract successfully, you'll have access to a main deck blue sun's zenith, without having to bring in the one from the sideboard.
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  13. #33

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    I can see myself playing only a singleton turnabout main deck and 4 candelabras in my board if the meta is full of hymn to tourachs.
    I don't understand why. Could you develop about this?

    @Meditate
    I still don't like it... But I can see it being at least a one-of main deck. You get a lot of options for a little cost playing one (since it's scrollable) but the second copy adds very little IMO.
    I guess it's what pushed Di to keep one. However, I realized that I never Scroll for it or only when I am desperate. I'll probably cut one to start with.

    @ feline

    I don't want to run dead cards pre Spiral either. I may give a try to some of these exotics cards I named. If they don't do the job, I'll put the 4th Preordain and/or 1 Intuition.

    @ Pact of Negation

    I had several time the feeling that I would have preferred 1 more Flusterstorm because of all the discard and S&T.

  14. #34
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by feline View Post
    I am big on 4/4/4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain myself, however you basically have that if your 4th Preordain is a Top.

    Gitaxian Probe is something that I thought about when that came up, but I always play picking up as many counter's along the way as I can anyway, so I just act like they have the worst case scenario hand possible, so whether I see it or not it's "meh" The advantage though is seeing their hand with nothing means "Oh I can go off right now instead of digging for more stuff." So I see that point of view, but personally I'd likely never run the Probe package.

    4th Flusterstorm, I love that card, I toy with 3 main 1 side & just straight 4 main at times, though some people like having 1 as a wish target since it is a unique spell. But against most of the decks where Flusterstorm really shines, you will want it in hand so you can use it early, -vs- waiting till your turn 4 or later where you can wish for it & use it, since Flusterstorm is awesome against discard earlier than that, or against opposing, faster storm decks like Belcher / Ad Nauseam storm decks, etc. Even against a turn 1 or 2 Show & Tell, you want that Flusterstorm in hand.

    For Meditate, I've actually cut it completely, though I still have a month before my next SCG Open, it's looking likely that if I even run Meditate at all it'll just be 1 total, but right now I am currently messing around with 1 main / 1 side Intuition, since the focus on Time Spiral works nicely.

    Peer through depths, I admit I haven't seen that card since it was in type II.

    As far as maindecking a Blue Sun's Zenith goes, I hate having dead cards pre combo, so I don't have anything maindeck that is currently, my maindeck pact of negation, is just another flusterstorm, there's no meditate, no BSZenith, or whatever else.

    Impulse, I think I might have to look that up I don't actually remember specifically what that does.

    I suppose in the end, I'd just vote for the 4th preordain or a maindeck intuition between the options listed, or maindecking the 4th flusterstorm, if you don't have any pacts main, if you have 3 flusters 1 pact main, then that's probably fine. But that's just me. Based on the average decklist and not my personal input, the evidence compels me to argue putting in a maindeck Blue Sun's Zenith. That does mean that against opposing extractions, if they do make you discard a wish and then extract successfully, you'll have access to a main deck blue sun's zenith, without having to bring in the one from the sideboard.
    I really hope I do well and have good things to say since we're on the same page about a lot. I'm running 0 Meditate, 1 Intuition main and 1 side, and 4 Flusterstorm main.

  15. #35
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Yea the only thing I'm on the fence about is the last 2 weekends have been 1st place U/W control something, so I don't know if I want access to a wipe away main again, I did at one point but then squeezed out the maindeck bounce, but if U/W is doing good enough it could be ran into, I'm always brainstorming and I constantly second guess everything, my brain never gives me a break!

    Either way, good luck again down, or up there, depending on whether you're driving north or south ha ha! As long as you've done your homework and know the huge diversity of match ups that is legacy, you should walk out with a winning record at a minimum, unless for some reason you just get a chain of bad match ups and some bad luck which would suck.

    The list currently is basically the same as what I pushed in Seattle, except for -1 maindeck Meditate, +1 maindeck Intuition, and the sideboard is -1 Pact of Negation, +1 Ravenous Trap, since most match ups I was only bringing in 2 of the pact's and the flusterstorm, so 2 were left in the sideboard, and I had a game in Vegas where even wish>extraction against ANT targeting Infernal tutor in response to Past in Flames, still wasnt enough because they had a bunch of ponders in the graveyard, so I was more sold on Ravenous Trap after that, not to mention it's implications against other decks that utilize the graveyard even more.
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  16. #36
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    You'd probably rather want to maindeck Repeal than Wipeaway since it's very good with Candles and much better if you aren't against Counterbalance ('sup, flipped Delver?). Gaddock Teeg seems to have left us, so there's also that.

  17. #37
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Well that's the thing, I'd only do the maindeck Wipe Away if I still suspect opposing Counterbalance in a month here. Basically if I switched it over to Repeal I'd at that point probably just cut it completely, I just hate the counterbalance match up & want that edge for it from game 1.

    Also yes, when I did have Repeals and used them for X = 0 against a flipped delver, that was just awesome, sometimes it was like a cantripping Time Walk against RUG that only got better if it didn't flip for a few turns coming back down.
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  18. #38

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    I don't think you want to make your main board weaker for only 1 match up. You still have your Forces and your Wishes for game 1. On top of this, they may not hit their counterbalance.

  19. #39
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by TiMeWaLk View Post
    I don't think you want to make your main board weaker for only 1 match up. You still have your Forces and your Wishes for game 1. On top of this, they may not hit their counterbalance.
    You are totally right that if you're making your main board weaker just for 1 match up, that's not something most would recommend, that's how much I hate the Counterbalance match up, my feelings get in the way.
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  20. #40
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    If it's a singleton Wipe Away, I'd probably put it in. Being completely comfortable with your deck counts for a lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

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