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Thread: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

  1. #41
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Heya, also new to the forums here though I've lurked for awhile.

    I built High Tide last summer to play at SCG Buffalo and didn't quite do too well as I was still trying to work on the deck and that I had net decked from an older build (one of Lorenzo Fedeli's lists) and still don't feel entirely confident. I've done decent during a few events closer to home (I actually live in Tampa but was visiting family for a wedding in NY the week after the Open) but still am not confident enough in ability to play it and have been far more enjoying my GWb Maverick build, but would love to try working on my build some more and get used to it so I can play High Tide more often as I really love playing it.

    Here's my current list I've been playing around with. I only have the one Candelabra so far:

    4x Brainstorm
    2x Cunning Wish
    3x Flusterstorm
    3x Force of Will
    4x High Tide
    1x Intuition
    2x Meditate
    3x Turnabout

    1x Candelabra of Tawnos

    2x Cloud of Faeries

    4x Merchant Scroll
    3x Ponder
    4x Preordain
    4x Time Spiral

    1x Trade Routes
    1x Mind Over Matter

    1x Breeding Pool
    3x Misty Rainforest
    14x Island

    ///Sideboard:

    1x Blue Sun's Zenith
    1x Brain Freeze
    1x Echoing Truth
    1x Hibernation
    1x Krosan Grip
    1x Meditate
    3x Pact of Negation
    1x Rebuild
    1x Slaughter Pact
    2x Snap
    1x Turnabout
    1x Wipe Away


    Reading through here the first thing I'm probably going to do is move the Intuition to the side (though I really like it mainboard since it makes tutoring Time Spiral really easy when I need it) and put a BSZ into the main in addition to the one in the side. I don't own a Tropical Island and Breeding Pool works for when I need it. It opens me up to the possibility of being Wastelanded, sure, but as a one-of that in most games I won't grab, it's usually fine. I don't grab the Grip for much anyways, usually for problem cards like Ethersworn Canonist from what I've played so far but Leylines and Chalices are also tough to deal with. I also need more fetches and definitely more Candelabras once my money situation loosens up a little bit, but for the time being I'm working with what I've got. I also understand Mind Over Matter is considered a bit "win more" but since I picked it up and have been testing I find it's been making my games go faster which is good for me and my opponents, especially as a relatively new High Tide player (from a competitive standpoint). The less my opponent looks like they want to punch me in the face, the better I'll feel.

  2. #42
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Hei Timewalk

    Well first to the Candels and turnabout.
    Ok yes with turnabout you can tap the lands of the oppenent, thats the best part i think.
    But my arguments to candels are:
    -you can put them down a turn before(Ok yes its sensible to stifle)and its a pernament and its likes felines argument a card less in the deck.
    -you have faster more mana than with turnabout for the zenith kill.
    -and this argument is very important i think, i mean you have to go off very fast with 4 islands like Decks like Jund or RUG when the clock are fast.then you have high tide tap all (6six mana) then candel(5 mana) then untap (4mana) and 1 mana in pool for a flusterstorm and i think thats very important and with turnabout you dont have that.

    to meditate

    i would never cutt a card this, i mean this can save games from time to time and its so good against discard. 1 off for me are important in main and sideboard because its tutorable.

    to pact of negation

    I dont like it main because i wont have a death card in hand ok when you draw it before you can combo its ok but i mean you can have 1 Pact in the Sb and search it.
    I like 3 flusterstorm main more they are good against discard etc. From time to time i play a pact in the sb for a eot wish to have a counter more before comboing.


    Greets Dingo

  3. #43

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Is there any room for Retraced Image? I thought that High Tide decks played that card to put Islands into play.

  4. #44
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by Zalren View Post
    Is there any room for Retraced Image? I thought that High Tide decks played that card to put Islands into play.
    I'm not sure I'd want to run Retraced Image myself, though I'm sure others might have a different opinion. Okay, it gets you going a turn earlier maybe, but a lot of times with how few lands are in your deck anyways, you're not even going to want to see it. I'd rather have more draw power or library manipulation that gets me closer to lands or otherwise untaps my lands. Putting another land down is okay early on like that but mid-combo especially I'd rather be doing something else. Turnabouts, Cloud of Faeries, and Candelabra are all just more effective (Cloud especially if you have Snap).

    Mind Over Matter might be equally "win more" but once you drop it on the board, it stays there. I don't really know how much I might enjoy seeing a Retraced Image after a Time Spiral, especially if I draw a fetch and no islands, as you've now got a card in hand that's deader than a door nail. I'd like Trade Routes more since, even though it doesn't necessarily generate more mana, it still not only thins my deck but sifts through it, getting me closer to my combo pieces. I realize neither of these options that I run are exactly popular but I think they're generally more effective than Retraced Image. The card might've been good in the deck's early days but I think it just doesn't quite work as well as others do.

  5. #45

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    @ BlackFlameAshura

    I played Cloud of Faeries before having 2 Candles. From what I tested, 3 Turnabout and 2 Cloud of Faeries were enough. I guess you can do -1 Cloud of Faeries on your current list.

    For the rest of the main deck:

    - With only 2 Wishes, I would be scared to run 0 win condition main board. How do you feel about this?
    - MoM and Trade Routes are dead cards pre Spiral. The deck does not need them.
    - If you can, increase the number of fetches to make your Brainstorm and Ponder better.

    For the side board:

    - I really dislike the Meditate in the side board. Something must have gone horribly wrong if you have to Wish for Meditate (especially that you run only 2).
    - Krosan Grip is not enough to justify weakening your mana base. It is far from a necessary card, which has an impact on a limited part of the metagame. On the other end, your mana base will be weakened against all the decks running wasteland (plus the fact that you don't own tropical). I let you do the maths. If you are afraid of counterbalance, run 1 more Wipe Away.
    - You have an incredible amount of bounce for a metagame where few hate bears are left.
    - What is Hibernation for?


    @ Pdingo

    About Turnabout/Candles:

    - A card outside of the deck is not always such a good news.
    - I can kill with BSZ all the time with 2 Candles and 3 Turnabout main board. Killing "faster" is a bad argument.
    - If you have 4 island, the exemple you give is quite bad for Candle. It costs 5 mana to untap with Candle and 4 for Turnabout.

    The only thing I can see about Candles is that they combo very well with Turnabout and make your life easy post Spiral. However, I don't care about esasy


    @ Retraced Image

    The card does card disadvantage and it is pointless to speed up the deck right now. The best thing you can do is to pitch it to Fow (joke). I would run Cloud of Faeries before even considering this card.

  6. #46
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    @ timewalk
    - i dont mean you can faster comboing, i mean you make faster MORE mana than with turnabout for spells like Blue sun's zenith target yourself and draw a lot card. This i mean with faster more mana.
    yes i mean 2 candel and 3 turnabout are easy enough for a blue suns zenith kill but i think more candel are better:P
    and that comes to argument number two.
    -Yes ok when candel resolve its a mana more but when it dont resolve you have more mana to play other spells.
    -You can put it IN TO PLAY (Still a Pernament more, not to fizzle) a turn before(When you not play against a decay Deck). When you have more Turnabout in Deck you fizzle more than with more candels.
    -And Turnabouts eats a lot more counter than a candel, REBs etc... and thats a other argument for me to play 4 candels.

    ok i like the 3/3 split to but at the time now 4 candels for me are to good :DD

    to meditate

    I cut now for the next gpt the main meditate for a intiuition main. Now i have a intuition main and 1 sb. Maybe its make really more than meditate like deck against jund.
    And yes how felines says its better to find Time spiral.

  7. #47
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by TiMeWaLk View Post
    @ BlackFlameAshura

    I played Cloud of Faeries before having 2 Candles. From what I tested, 3 Turnabout and 2 Cloud of Faeries were enough. I guess you can do -1 Cloud of Faeries on your current list.

    For the rest of the main deck:

    - With only 2 Wishes, I would be scared to run 0 win condition main board. How do you feel about this?
    - MoM and Trade Routes are dead cards pre Spiral. The deck does not need them.
    - If you can, increase the number of fetches to make your Brainstorm and Ponder better.

    For the side board:

    - I really dislike the Meditate in the side board. Something must have gone horribly wrong if you have to Wish for Meditate (especially that you run only 2).
    - Krosan Grip is not enough to justify weakening your mana base. It is far from a necessary card, which has an impact on a limited part of the metagame. On the other end, your mana base will be weakened against all the decks running wasteland (plus the fact that you don't own tropical). I let you do the maths. If you are afraid of counterbalance, run 1 more Wipe Away.
    - You have an incredible amount of bounce for a metagame where few hate bears are left.
    - What is Hibernation for?
    This is why I'm posting here, lol. Keep in mind I net decked a lot of this and am still trying to find some stable footing at the tournament level. First off, I'm well aware I need more fetches, it's just not in my budget for the time being and so I'm having some trouble trying to trade around for them but every so often I've gotten lucky. I've been performing real well with my Maverick build the last few weeks I've played it so if it keeps up I'll probably manage to get enough store credit to grab some Scalding Tarns and eventually Deltas or Strands but it'll be a little bit yet. I personally like the Routes and MOM but I agree they're not exactly necessary.

    I might go -1 Cloud, remove those two, move the Meditate in SB over to main, and add another BSZ and Wish to the main. As for how I feel about having 0 win cons main I have an awful tendency to just go in and grab the Brain Freeze and mill for game. Lately I've gone for the BSZ more often so I do think it might be best slipping that back in main especially since it does a lot of what Trade Routes also has been doing for me: allowing me to draw a ton and sift through my deck.

    With regards to the SB, I agree on Krosan Grip, it's just what I had and I'm not entirely sure what else to slip in at this point. Probably another Wipe Away like you said. That also applies to most of the rest of my board but some of it has specific applications. Snaps were mostly for the Cloud of Faeries but also for Canonists and the like, Rebuild was for Affinity matchups (the list I ND'd actually ran Hurkyl's Recall as well but I think Rebuild is better because you can cycle it if all else fails), Echoing Truth is for Empty the Warrens, and Hibernation is usually for Combo Elves, all to combat them from killing me too quick. Slaughter Pact is for Iona which pops up in some of the decks in my meta and completely crushes my deck if I can't grab an answer. Slaughter Pact is effective here since I can still cast it even if my opponent calls blue on Iona.

  8. #48
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    The biggest thing I think most would compel to push, would be to make all the lands fetches & basic Islands, and turn the Krosan Grip into a Wipe away since it basically does the same thing, gets that permanent off the battlefield with split second. ^.^ Also if you're newer with the deck then awesome! I love seeing people pick up this deck and deciding "ok I'm going to play this, thing, that is a combo legacy deck." Maybe I'm just weird, crazy or even mean, but I just love seeing this deck in action!
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  9. #49
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by feline View Post
    The biggest thing I think most would compel to push, would be to make all the lands fetches & basic Islands, and turn the Krosan Grip into a Wipe away since it basically does the same thing, gets that permanent off the battlefield with split second. ^.^ Also if you're newer with the deck then awesome! I love seeing people pick up this deck and deciding "ok I'm going to play this, thing, that is a combo legacy deck." Maybe I'm just weird, crazy or even mean, but I just love seeing this deck in action!
    That's exactly how I felt when I first saw it. I bought the Burn precon on MTGO soon after I got into the format with Affinity last March and got absolutely wrecked by High Tide and thought it was an awesome deck to play so I at least had an idea of how to build it. Next thing you know I had almost everything in the deck except the Forces which I got from my uncle when I bought his collection before SCG Buffalo and played it at the Legacy Challenge day 1 and in the Open day 2. I went 2-2 in the Challenge and 0-3 in the Open. I've played it a couple other times since but never did too well. It's changed a good amount since last time since I was able to catch some Legacy sales at my LGS and bought a bunch of cheap staples for the deck. I'll probably try it again in a couple weeks after I try and do well with Maverick so I can work on getting some more stuff for this deck (like fetches) but the help is definitely most appreciated!

    P.S. Thanks for sharing the link to the primer on Reddit, Feline!
    Last edited by BlackFlameAshura; 03-15-2013 at 01:40 AM.
    Main deck: Maverick
    Secondary decks: High Tide // Affinity
    MTGO decks: Affinity

  10. #50
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Yea, when I linked that in the middle of the night, there was like "50+ guests" viewing for a few hours afterward every time I got on and did random stuff in the forums and decided to check the High Tide thread, I try to share the information everywhere with relevant stuff, especially the metagame analysis that I do for the format which I'll be updating again sometime in the next few weeks since it's about a month old now and enough Open's have happened to add a handful of new decklists.
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  11. #51
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    High Tide has got to be one of the better decks in the format if not the best combo deck. Sure SNT is good, but it is somewhat weak vs discard and sometimes the hands are horribly awkward. Meanwhile High Tide plays 12 Cantrips and has a billion tutors for redundancy... If I didn't feel bad for my opponents while I played I would certainly play this deck. And for anyone interested in a powerful combo deck play this. I played a candleless list (havent heard that before have you? :P) with the untap Faeries in their place and it was for the most part fine. I did well with it in testing and it was somewhat enjoyable to play.
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  12. #52

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    yeah, I myself also play 2 Cloud of Faeries before I have received my Candelabra. Faeries can provide you with extra mana, although much less than Candelabra.

    "cycling" of Cloud of Faeries is useful, when you are close to fizzle(need that "one more" card to continue).

    Spiral Tide without Candelabra is not a big issue, at least in my opinion. Candelabra does increased our chance to win faster(maybe turn 3), but as Spiral Tide is a late-game combo, we can just try to control the situation and try to stop them before we go off.

    In my opinion, Candelabra makes the deck more explosive. but without them, the deck is still there.

  13. #53

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by TiMeWaLk View Post
    I don't understand why. Could you develop about this?
    If the goal is to resolve Time Spiral and we are not under significant pressure a simple land-drop could replace an untap-effect. This is atleast a turn slower but makes it easier to "try again" later. If any attempt to go off on the back of a turnabout is countered you have to start over again, with an additional card. If the failed attempt was made without candelabra/turnabout you only need one or two cards to try again (Spiral or high tide+spiral or lands+spiral). Something that happens alot vs blue+black decks. Candelabra is better than turnabout in this regard since it's still around (hopefully) but unless your second attempt is with a High tide the candelabras do NOT help you go off. So against heavy discard I make sure not to miss any landdrops and unless they have liliana or Bob going there is no reason to push for a quick kill. Even if you have a late attempt with 5 Islands+Turnabout+spiral you loose one more card compared to 6 lands + spiral if it fails. Remember; the deck can win with one card and 6 islands.

    Also, focusing on lands helps vs targeted discard. Hymn was a bad example as it can also hit lands. Against discard in general I rather have Islands than turnabout/candelabra. Im not saying you should sideboard additional Islands it's just that I think the untap-effects are the weakest card post-board against heavy discard (plus counters) and something has to go for the cards we want to side in.

    And;
    1) With the power of brainstorm you can float business (i.e Time Spiral) on top of your library and having only a land (preferably your sixth) in hand the turn before you go off, negating any duress (but not hymn/liliana).
    2) You can float brainstorm on top with only lands in hand to win with tide+spiral.

    So, if the meta calls for it I rather start of with a slooow, but stable turn 4-5 deck (with very few untap-effects) and become a turn 3-4 deck post-board versus goblins (siding candelabras).
    I don't think we need more untap-effects post-spiral than time spiral itself.

  14. #54
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    You know what's also great against slow blue/black decks? Playing at least 3 Meditate in your 75.

  15. #55

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    @ Mackan

    I understand what you say but I don't get why you would like 4 Candles & 1 Turnabout in certain cases. If you want to decrease your number of untap effects, I'd go to 2 Candles 3 Turnabout. If you want to decrease even more, 1 Candle & 3 Turnabout still works.

    @ Pdingo

    - Candles makes less mana than Turnabout. The only time they do is with 3 lands in play ( and Candle in play) or when you have 2 Candles and you can cast a Turnabout (that is, when you already won).

    -Yes ok when candel resolve its a mana more but when it dont resolve you have more mana to play other spells.
    - Agreed.

    -You can put it IN TO PLAY (Still a Pernament more, not to fizzle) a turn before(When you not play against a decay Deck). When you have more Turnabout in Deck you fizzle more than with more candels.
    - You hardly change the probability of fizzle (1 card out of 50, you have to imagine you can also draw this untap effect instead of a land...). Not to mention that from time to time you may want the untap to be shuffled in (tapped Candle for example which could have been Turnabout). You will only know if you lack mana after opening your new 7. All in all, that's probably few tenth percent variations...

    -And Turnabouts eats a lot more counter than a candel, REBs etc... and thats a other argument for me to play 4 candels.
    - Your opponent will spend his counters on Scroll, HT, Spiral... This is a corner case.

    Let's agree to disagree


    @ flrn

    How does Meditate works against Jund for you? Do you consider this match up as a "slow" black deck?

  16. #56
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    @Timewalk

    I know that make turnabout more mana when its alone but yes when you have more candels its make more.

    -To the fizzling and pernaments. I mean before i have the candels i played candless Tide and dont know but i fizzle more than with candels.^^
    -And i mean a RUG player we have to tap out with turnabout a lot of games.(When he have use the SB) And he have to counter a Turnabout like this.


    @flrn

    to meditate

    I have to say that 3 meditate are not really good now, and against jund(not a easy Match up) you cant cast a meditate i think.

  17. #57

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by Pdingo View Post
    -And Turnabouts eats a lot more counter than a candel, REBs etc... and thats a other argument for me to play 4 candels.
    Wait.. WUT?! Normally I wouldn't go into the candlelabra-turnabout discussion again, but this kinda makes me cry.
    If your opponent keeps his ReB for turnabout, you should win anyway because your opponent is a very very bad player. They have a gazillion better blue targets for it, not in the least high tide. But with turnabout, you at least have the option the EOT tap his land, so he can never ever use his ReB to stop your high tide. If you hold candelabra.. you just lost the game to his ReB.. oh and on top of that, you're dead to his stifle as well.
    And you lose to vial on 2 against D&T if you can't EOT tap it with turnabout, while having a useless candelabra in hand.
    And you lose to trinisphere.
    And you lose to ...
    Turnabout helps you out in a lot of random situations where candelabra is stuck in your hand. People play candelabra because they want 4+ untap, after they have maxed out on turnabouts! (The version feline played with only 1 turnabout main had 2 bounce cards main to solve the problems an EOT turnabout sometimes could solve as well.)

    Also the more mana faster argument.. that sounds a lot like win-more to me. I'd much rather need 5 minutes extra to win, if that means having a better toolbox to combat problems.

  18. #58
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    @esthoril

    Lol, do you really know what i mean ?
    situation:

    (RUG)2-4 Tropical/volcanics in play from oppenent: i say still g2 maybe g1.
    I play eot turnabout to him he have to counter it.
    because:
    -He have a lot more REBs, spell pierce,stifle and flusterstorm maybe in hand.
    -When he do not i can be sure that he have only FoWs and Daze's.
    -When he do counter it i be more unsure to going off.
    -Why should he kp his REB in hand when he cant play it when i tap all his lands? lol?!

    and when you look at my list i play 2 bounce spell to main;) 1 turnabout only but we have enough tutors. You can SEARCH it for any problems like the Trinisphere etc.

    I like 4/1 with Bounce etc split and 3/3 split are very good bouth together are so good.

  19. #59

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by Pdingo View Post
    Why should he kp his REB in hand when he cant play it when i tap all his lands? lol?!
    Lol did you read my post? :) I was giving an example of just how bad candelabra is compared to turnabout in the same spot. You are very likely not(!) tapping his land EOT, as you have useless bounce or useless candelabra in your hand.. (while on top of that, the need to play around stifle..) That is what I was pointing out! With turnabout you'll at least have the option to tap his land EOT, while you are very unlikely to have that option. Or you need to waste a scroll on it, where we can use the scroll for another counter. You'll have a much harder time beating RUG with your build.
    Also in the current meta, there is hardly any counterbalance, and maverick is completely absent. So what exactly are you looking to bounce? RUG is still the deck that puts up the best results of all and I like to play a maindeck that has the best chance to beat it. 4 candelabra + bounce isn't doing that.

  20. #60
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Well i like the 4/1 split and yes you can search the turnabout and it was never a problem to do tap out like that.
    I make this play a lot and have no problem. And a Eot turnabout(was search with scroll) can make more than search a counter with scroll. I mean it can be possible eat a counter or tap all lands and he can't use his REB!
    The other slot i use it for wipe away! Make a lot to right now in the Meta in Switzerland.
    And i thinkt the meta is a little diffrent from Switzerland to the big USA.^^

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