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Thread: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

  1. #781

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide, version, Spiral Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by zeus-online View Post
    Because, i thought that legacy high tide was called solidarity.

    When i saw this thread i figured that legacy players worldwide decided that high tide was a better name for the deck (Which it is!) ;)

    I did not know that there was two distinct variants of legacy high tide.
    Solidarity was the all-instant High Tide combo version, pioneered by David Gearheart waaaay back when. Spring Tide is the not-all-instant version with Candels, Time Spiral etc. There was even a Ug version splashing for Heartbeat of Spring and Early Harvest for a short while.

  2. #782

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    god. Last year, there was a guy at my LGS who played old-school solidarity with a brainfreeze kill. He moved out of state for his job, and then a month or two later, the LGS owners (it's a chain) decided that running proxy-allowed non-sanctioned events would generate more revenue, and everyone and their brother started playing sneak and show, to the point where you'd have to maindeck the damn surgicals to get anywhere. But I love the deck, and I feel like it's not a bad choice for a well-defined metagame, particularly if it's sneak and show heavy as the snap/snapcaster mage version of solidarity can usually pull pretty sweet combo offs against show and tell (win after S&T resolves on turn 3 giving you an extra land to combo with). However, it's a perfectly fine meta for triple maindeck ensnaring bridge lands.

  3. #783
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    What does this deck fizzle to more, not generating enough mana, or not drawing enough? Maybe it loses more because it cant start the combo?
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  4. #784
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    What does this deck fizzle to more, not generating enough mana, or not drawing enough? Maybe it loses more because it cant start the combo?
    Not drawing enough, definitely. Sometimes the combo is stopped by counters, sometimes you lose before you even get the chance to go off.

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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Playable on this deck?


  6. #786

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic_AntheM View Post
    Playable on this deck?

    It's arguably worse here than in Solidarity High Tide decks, because you're exiling the cards in the bin, which makes Time Spiral worse.

  7. #787
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    It looks terrible. Exiling cantrips pre-spiral is suicide, and any time you get enough cards in your graveyard post-spiral to make it "worth it" you are probably in excellent shape anyways.

  8. #788

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Given that Wotc has now many years of experience on what can be broken and what cannot, and that both the Blue color and the "Combo" archetype are two things that are being kept under serious vigilance by card designers, i don't think we are getting another bombcard for our deck anytime soon, especially given that Spiral Tide is a deck that 90% made of cards that were unexpectedly broken (one for all, Candelabra of Tawnos).

    If you look at all the recently printed strong cards that have an impact in the format, you can't find anything that is fit for a combo deck, except Ad Nauseam and Infernal Tutor.
    For the rest, the majority of good cards for comboing are old cards.

    I don't think we are getting a new cantrip soon (not after ponder and preordain) or a new low-cost-drawer, let alone a new blue untapper, and for sure not a new blue tutor (not after gift ungiven).
    I feel we're kinda stuck with the deck atm. That's so sad. =(

    DTT is bad, the delve effect is horrible in a deck that wants its stuff reshuffled for more action. Plus, pay UU for having 2/7 is bad when you can have 4/4 with 2U.

  9. #789

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    We are. I play Solidarity but it's the same issue, WotC isn't going to print any blue bombs for this deck. Would need a sick 2cc counterspell (something better than CC or Remand, though I'm sure this is only the case for Solidarity), 1cc super-cantrip (yeah right), or the unbanning of Frantic Search (I woudn't count on it).

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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanti View Post
    We are. I play Solidarity but it's the same issue, WotC isn't going to print any blue bombs for this deck. Would need a sick 2cc counterspell (something better than CC or Remand, though I'm sure this is only the case for Solidarity), 1cc super-cantrip (yeah right), or the unbanning of Frantic Search (I woudn't count on it).
    Swan Song is pretty new by Legacy standards. It's awesome, I don't think they will be printing anything better than it in the near future.

  11. #791

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Swan Song to me falls under the Spell Snare, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, and Disrupt brand of spells, with the crappier Force Spike, Envelop, Dispel following that line. It's nice, but it's not really bringing a new function to the deck, just improving on an old one, so it doesn't add anything "new" to the deck.

  12. #792

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanti View Post
    We are. I play Solidarity but it's the same issue, WotC isn't going to print any blue bombs for this deck. Would need a sick 2cc counterspell (something better than CC or Remand, though I'm sure this is only the case for Solidarity), 1cc super-cantrip (yeah right), or the unbanning of Frantic Search (I woudn't count on it).

    Frantic Search I honestly would not be surprised if it was unbanned at some point. I think it deserves it, but wouldn't be surprised if it never happens.
    “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle".
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  13. #793

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by JPoJohnson View Post
    Frantic Search I honestly would not be surprised if it was unbanned at some point. I think it deserves it, but wouldn't be surprised if it never happens.
    Honestly Spiral Tide would be the only deck that would fully profit of it, and even with the huge benefits it will get (it'd gain probably one full turn of speed) it would still be the slowest combo in the format. Just saying, the card is super strong but I don't think it's broken. If I am not wrong, we are currently playing in a format that can cheat a 15/15 spaghetti monster into play for the same amount of mana. Or an enchant that makes you play everything for free. Or a 3/1 progenitus.
    Well anyway i don't know if it's gonna happen anytime soon, i don't think so; dci doesn't like the card after all the mess in the early tolarian academy combo days. Anyway that's just trashtalking, speaking about the possible unban of FS won't lead the deck anywhere.

    If you desperately want to use the new cards with Delve (there's even a sorcery that makes you draw three cards for the cost of 7U-delve) you can try to put together a meditate+MoM engine, as Feline did with her early version of the deck.

  14. #794

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by Cave View Post
    Honestly Spiral Tide would be the only deck that would fully profit of it, and even with the huge benefits it will get (it'd gain probably one full turn of speed) it would still be the slowest combo in the format. Just saying, the card is super strong but I don't think it's broken. If I am not wrong, we are currently playing in a format that can cheat a 15/15 spaghetti monster into play for the same amount of mana. Or an enchant that makes you play everything for free. Or a 3/1 progenitus.
    Well anyway i don't know if it's gonna happen anytime soon, i don't think so; dci doesn't like the card after all the mess in the early tolarian academy combo days. Anyway that's just trashtalking, speaking about the possible unban of FS won't lead the deck anywhere.

    If you desperately want to use the new cards with Delve (there's even a sorcery that makes you draw three cards for the cost of 7U-delve) you can try to put together a meditate+MoM engine, as Feline did with her early version of the deck.
    Solidarity

    I'm not sure the delve cards are dynamite in this deck. They really thwart the power of Time Spiral quite a bit. I just personally don't see any of them as stand out inclusions.
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  15. #795
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by Cave View Post
    If you look at all the recently printed strong cards that have an impact in the format, you can't find anything that is fit for a combo deck, except Ad Nauseam and Infernal Tutor.
    You forgot Past in Flames :P

    If we're going as far back as Infernal Tutor, I'd like to disagree :P
    Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinel, Elvish Visionary, Summoner's Pact, Craterhoof Behemoth, Progenitus, Worldspine Wurm, Deathrite Shaman, Green Sun's Zenith, Mirror Entity, Empty the Warrens, Rite of Flame, the whole goddamn Dredge deck. I'm probably forgetting something, and not listing a crapton of great combotastic cards that aren't Legacy playable but did hilariously broken things in Standard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  16. #796
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    You forgot Past in Flames :P

    If we're going as far back as Infernal Tutor, I'd like to disagree :P
    Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinel, Elvish Visionary, Summoner's Pact, Craterhoof Behemoth, Progenitus, Worldspine Wurm, Deathrite Shaman, Green Sun's Zenith, Mirror Entity, Empty the Warrens, Rite of Flame, the whole goddamn Dredge deck. I'm probably forgetting something, and not listing a crapton of great combotastic cards that aren't Legacy playable but did hilariously broken things in Standard.
    Preordain, Ponder, Blue Sun's Zenith, Snapcaster Mage, Gitaxian Probe, Griselbrand & Reanimation-Targets, Pact of Negation, Flusterstorm, Enemy-Color-Fetchlands, Simian Spirit Guide, Manamorphose, the Hermit.dec, Omniscience, the Draw your deck-Spell etc...

    But yeah...

  17. #797
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by JPoJohnson View Post
    Frantic Search I honestly would not be surprised if it was unbanned at some point. I think it deserves it, but wouldn't be surprised if it never happens.
    Well, if paired with High Tide you have a blue ritual adding an absurd amount of blue mana to your pool with an attached card-selection effect. We already have a 3cc Ritual adding 8-15 mana to your manapool in the format in Form of Show&Tell which DOES NOT OFFER CARDDRAW.
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  18. #798
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Nothing really new on my end. Still love the counterbalances in the sideboard, they come in a lot against most decks, especially if I am on the play. They are not as great though against Sneak & Show since all their combo stuff is 3-4 mana+, but it can still draw out a counterspell. Also against Abrupt Decay decks Counterbalance is weaker, but I've been bringing them in anyway and if they hit it ok, but if they don't then it stays in play!

    Capsize is in the sideboard now, I cut the second wipe away for it since I only go against miracles about once every 2 opens lately, on average anyhow. The second "wipe away" is now the Capsize, since if I can resolve a Cunning Wish against miracles, I can probably resolve Capsize as well since they are both 3 cmc, and games 2/3 the Wipe Away will be in the main deck as a scroll target. Also to note of course, Capsize with enough High Tides resolved/Islands in play with a candel means infinite mana, and a top in play with that infinite mana means you can draw your entire deck and just win right there. It's rare, but there are a few instances where, I can't wish for Blue Sun because it's in the maindeck, or I don't have enough mana to make Drawing a large enough Blue Sun on myself, while at the same time I can't Intuition because I've used it and it's in the main already, or I'm down to 2 Time Spirals left in the deck, while thirdly, not enough spells have been cast for a lethal Brain Freeze, or the opponent has an Emrakul like card in the deck. Then fourthly my hand has no card draw left in it. In this very specific scenario that is uncommon, but can actually happen, means Capsize has actually allowed me to continue on and win, where otherwise I would have actually fizzled. Though the number of times this very specific set of circumstances has come up is quite rare, I have noticed it when it happens and it has actually happened a couple times over the past couple months.

    As a bonus to the Capsize infinite mana, if you can't draw because you have none left and don't have a top in play to infinite card draw, you can bounce all the opponents permanents before Time Spiraling so if you fizzle, they fizzle too, & on top of that, which I have actually done before, you can have some Counterbalance/Top in play to really make even a fizzle in your favor, since you have that and your lands and they are starting from turn 1 all over again in the situation of a fizzle.

    Another thing to note with capsize is that if you're just running low on time and want to turn a draw into a win, or a loss into at least a draw, you can just get Capsize and win right there with the right number of High Tides resolved and Islands in play.

    For the ratio, I have it written on my deck box: Capsize into infinite mana below:
    1 High Tides resolved - 7 Islands in play = infinite storm, but mana stays the same / 8 Islands in play means infinite mana
    2 High Tides resolved - 4 Islands in play means infinite mana
    3 High Tides resolved - 3 Islands in play means infinite mana
    4 High Tides resolved - 2 Islands in play means infinite mana

    Edited to fix error
    Last edited by feline; 09-17-2014 at 11:32 AM.
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  19. #799
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by feline View Post
    Nothing really new on my end. Still love the counterbalances in the sideboard, they come in a lot against most decks, especially if I am on the play. They are not as great though against Sneak & Show since all their combo stuff is 3-4 mana+, but it can still draw out a counterspell. Also against Abrupt Decay decks Counterbalance is weaker, but I've been bringing them in anyway and if they hit it ok, but if they don't then it stays in play!

    Capsize is in the sideboard now, I cut the second wipe away for it since I only go against miracles about once every 2 opens lately, on average anyhow. The second "wipe away" is now the Capsize, since if I can resolve a Cunning Wish against miracles, I can probably resolve Capsize as well since they are both 3 cmc, and games 2/3 the Wipe Away will be in the main deck as a scroll target. Also to note of course, Capsize with enough High Tides resolved/Islands in play with a candel means infinite mana, and a top in play with that infinite mana means you can draw your entire deck and just win right there. It's rare, but there are a few instances where, I can't wish for Blue Sun because it's in the maindeck, or I don't have enough mana to make Drawing a large enough Blue Sun on myself, while at the same time I can't Intuition because I've used it and it's in the main already, or I'm down to 2 Time Spirals left in the deck, while thirdly, not enough spells have been cast for a lethal Brain Freeze, or the opponent has an Emrakul like card in the deck. Then fourthly my hand has no card draw left in it. In this very specific scenario that is uncommon, but can actually happen, means Capsize has actually allowed me to continue on and win, where otherwise I would have actually fizzled. Though the number of times this very specific set of circumstances has come up is quite rare, I have noticed it when it happens and it has actually happened a couple times over the past couple months.

    As a bonus to the Capsize infinite mana, if you can't draw because you have none left and don't have a top in play to infinite card draw, you can bounce all the opponents permanents before Time Spiraling so if you fizzle, they fizzle too, & on top of that, which I have actually done before, you can have some Counterbalance/Top in play to really make even a fizzle in your favor, since you have that and your lands and they are starting from turn 1 all over again in the situation of a fizzle.

    Another thing to note with capsize is that if you're just running low on time and want to turn a draw into a win, or a loss into at least a draw, you can just get Capsize and win right there with the right number of High Tides resolved and Islands in play.

    For the ratio, I have it written on my deck box: Capsize into infinite mana below:
    2 High Tides resolved - 7 Islands in play = infinite storm, but mana stays the same / 8 Islands in play means infinite mana
    3 High Tides resolved - 4 Islands in play means infinite mana
    4 High Tides resolved - 3 Islands in play means infinite mana
    5 High Tides resolved - 2 Islands in play means infinite mana
    Aren't those Tide counts one too high? Capsize = 6, Candle = 1. One Tide is enough for infinite durdling on 7 lands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  20. #800

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    Aren't those Tide counts one too high? Capsize = 6, Candle = 1. One Tide is enough for infinite durdling on 7 lands.
    TRue. Still, feline, that was a really impressive infinite at the Open this past weekend.

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