I'm also running 3 tops now. It really feels like the right number, we want to see 1 a game, and we draw so many freaking cards. The upside is when you're going off they turn into cyclers (assuming you have a decent amount of shuffle)Originally Posted by Charon
Yea, if I wasn't doing Counterbalance, I'd only be running 2-3 Sensei's Divining Tops. They were at either 2 or 3 before I started doing Counterbalance.
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
I'm getting an insane amount of value out of counterbalance. There are so many games that I end up "just winning" when I bring them in. I feel like it's one of the only ways I can beat elves (at least they've got to spend a turn abrupt decaying it..) It is at worst a 1-1 trade with a counter spell and at best your opponent rages and does that thing people do vs counterbalance where 2nd main w/8 cards in hand they literally just throw their spells in to the graveyard knowing that you're going to counter them. My BIG question is what do you sideboard out to bring it in? I've been doing -1 candel (to 3), and then -1 fluster storm -1 preordain -1 depends. Every time I go to sideboard out I feel like I don't know what to do and I feel like what I do is wrong.
I've been running feline's list minus capsize plus defense grid, although up until a couple weeks ago I didn't have (and therefore didn't use) any of the fetches. Last time I played high tide at LGS I got absolutely destroyed by stifle in 2 of the 3 matches I played which was probably an outlier but felt really really bad. I also got beaten by that insane card that turns all basics from one type to another. That was just nuts.. talk about splash damage. The fetches are superior but they do open the deck to stifles and blood moons which are actually fairly common (in my meta) although this will come and go over time. But it is a time walk *or worse* when it happens. It feels extremely bad especially since a HUGE STRENGTH of High Tide is to be blanking all these land hate cards. There have also been plenty of games where I've won with 1 or 2 life. Legacy is a meta of give and take but I'm putting this data point out here because being one of the only mono colored decks out there could let us potentially get more basic and blank more of our opponents' hate. The counterpoint is that I've obviously won games because I could crack and shuffle my deck and find an answer.
My biggest struggle at this point - which is a very scary one - is that my local meta is EXTREMELY aware of High Tide, our LGS has Anwar playing it (who I know is on these boards) and another gentleman who has Top 8'd or won an open with HT before, David Gearhardt works there and lots of the regulars have been used to playing against these decks since he was playing Solidarity. This is obviously a very twilight-zone-esq meta (the other night we counted 21 candelabras between people at the shop) but it really makes me wonder if a huge strength of HT is "security through obscurity" - Feline you do a great job with the deck but I see your opponents even in later rounds making huge misplays that I literally never have the pleasure of having occur against me. Any deck is worse if people are expert at playing against it but I feel that pain is more acute for high tide. That's pretty bad
I'm also extremely concerned that we aren't benefitting from treasure cruise or dig through time. It has become really clear from watching the opens (and from Bob Huang being at our LGS and people picking up his decks haha.. nightmare continues!) that the meta is dividing in to winners and losers based on how much the decks can take advantage of these two broken cards. If we can't use them, we're probably on the losing end. My HT vs *Delver match ups were already really tight, with these cards in the meta I've been getting blown out. I feel like the deck either needs to run them, or the win % is going to drop significantly until they're banned. The only perk here is that maybe the extra graveyard hate will get people off Dredge, hah!
I've also been considering running gitaxian probe. I struggle so much because this deck doesn't give you hand knowledge. IDK probe has problems though. If it weren't 3 mana I'd even consider vendillion clique in sideboard but I believe it's too expensive. I lose regularly against miracles (lots in my meta, what a HARD match up) and it often comes down to having to start a blind counter war, not knowing their hand quality, and losing by one counter spell or a surprise clique out of a combo piece. This could all be entirely due to me misplaying though - vs miracles I often try to go off asap with permission but I've sometimes felt like the better move would be to get them to make the first move, fight on their turn, and then go for it on mine. Doing that seems to simply leave them with lots of mana, countertop, jace, and potentially even more counters in hand when I've run out.. miracles losing a counter war suffers the loss of their 1 threat card (CB, Jace, Entreat, Clique), for us it typically means we've lost a HT and a TS and are basically starting over and require gathering one of each
Sorry for the doom and gloom but these are the issues I've been struggling with in my head for a while. After a few months strictly playing high tide I'm taking a few weeks off and playing another deck. I'm happy to discuss any of this stuff though, would love constructive criticism, and if I have any epiphany I'll chime in.
Ok, and I love the opinions on this as I see how it can work but haven't had them bear out for me.
For example elves,
The earliest I've been able to get countertop active is turn 4, upon which turn you are usually dead anyway? If they don't kill you by turn 4 aren't you going to win that game anyway?
You are fine, and you are correct. At my local store, I don't fair as well as I do at opens, because in going to my local store, people there know I'm on High Tide, we've all played against each other a number of times, and they know better what to do and not to do now. When I first arrived at the local store here in Cleveland Ohio earlier this year, I was averaging better finishes than I am when I go there now.
Basically it's an advantage as you said, going up against people who are experienced against High Tide -vs- those that are not. So far at the Open Series, there's enough players that don't playtest against the deck that it's definitely a large advantage sometimes as the High Tide player. I can also understand why people don't playtest against a deck that is often times 1% or less of the room. Just by the numbers alone, if 2 people are playing High Tide in a 300 person tournament, and you will play against only 9 of them to get to top 8, it's very unlikely you'll get paired against High Tide. People only have so much time to playtest against the field and they would be better served playtesting against Delver/Show and Tell/Storm/Miracles/Elves/Death and Taxes/etc decks that they know are much more likely to go against.
The benefit however of playtesting against a rare deck in the format that is Legacy though, is that once you playtest against Goblins, High Tide, Dredge, Cheeri0s, Spanish Inquisition or whatever else, the format doesn't change the way standard does, and that playtesting will pay off forever. That's why if someone asks "what should I play test against in Legacy" I tell them that if they can, they should play test against everything.
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
In my experience, (on the Elves side) it's not so much that I'll kill you T3, it's that from T3 onwards I pretty much ask "is if okay if you die now?" to which you understandably say "No". Then I ask you again. And again. And again. And each and every answer delays you, some important cards get pitched to FoW or discarded so you need more, and at some point you just can't say no anymore. What the matchup boils down to is Elves' absurd finisher density - what other combo deck can boast 12-15 kill cards?
You want to beat Elves, you have to solve that disparity somehow. For that, Grafdigger's Cage is ideal. Blanks half the kill cards and bringing in Decay for it is awkward. Reclamation Sage is a workable solution but Cage shuts down GSZ, so that's unreliable too.
Right, and it's either cage or defense grid we are removing to play the counterbalance package.
Maybe it's because I should be sideboarding differently. I've been removing preordains, and it's been hurting my post spiral percentages.
What's your deck and SB plan?
if you're having problems with a hostile meta, try switching to 12 post. It is good against most of the decks that are good against high tide. Plus, since you already have the candles, it isn't that expensive!
as for elves, I've said before that I splash red, and that gives me pyroclasm out of the board, which helped immensely. But the other thing about elves is to remember that you can let them glimpse as much as they want, and you can save your counter spells for natural order, green Sun's Zenith, or a drawn crater hoof. If you let them glimpse, your foster storms will actually be somewhat effective. Ordinarily they aren't because L can generate so much mana, but if you let them build storm for you you will be much better off. if they do not get hooked, none of their drawn creatures have haste, so you get at least one more turn to combo with.
12 island
2 flooded strand
2 misty rainforest
2 polluted delta
4 high tide
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 preordain
4 force of will
3 flusterstorm
4 time spiral
3 cunning wish
1 turnabout
3 candelabra of tawnos
4 merchant scroll
3 sensei's divining top
1 Dig through time (flex slot, but I love it so far)
Board
4 counterbalance
2 wipe away
1 blue suns zenith
1 capsize
1 rebuild
1 turnabout
1 brain freeze
1 snap
1 intuition
1 flusterstorm
1 pact of negation
Board swings, and i'm trying new things. Unlike many, I actually like the capsize for mental stamina. Creating infinite mana without going through 10 minutes of motions across 9 rounds really helps me, maybe i'm just less focused than some other players but I value the shortcut enough to give it a slot.
Actually removing Preordain for Counterbalances in the games 2 & 3 is pretty much what I do myself. I still have 4/4/4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Sensei's Tops. The other stuff is -1 High Tide, +1 Blue Sun's Zenith (In case Extraction games 2/3 hits Wishes or High Tides.) I will usually -1 Cunning Wish as well if I have to trim more since with a Blue Sun's Zenith in the maindeck, the 3rd Cunning Wish is always for Blue Sun's Zenith anyway game 1 since there's no Blue Sun main. After that if you have to cut stuff and bring in maindeck bounce for decks with possible Meddling Mage/Ethersworn Canonist/Gaddock Teeg/Thalia/Spirit of the Lab/etc, -1 Candel is usually fine if it's against a slower deck. Miracles for example, some lists will have a couple hate bears in the sideboard that come in games 2/3.
Other times I will cut the Flusterstorms because against decks like Death & Taxes/Mud/Decks with 99% permanents in their list, Flusterstorm is pretty much dead.
Also I am liking the Capsize in the sideboard too, saving time never hurts if you have to worry about the clock being against you. Can bounce all permanents of opponents before a Spiral, go infinite with candel, go infinite card draw with a top in play, etc. So for now, it's a staple in the sideboard that isn't going to be cut anytime soon.
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
And, it is also a bounce! Not the best one, but still. Against MUD for example, I bring it in.Also I am liking the Capsize in the sideboard too, saving time never hurts if you have to worry about the clock being against you. Can bounce all permanents of opponents before a Spiral, go infinite with candel, go infinite card draw with a top in play, etc. So for now, it's a staple in the sideboard that isn't going to be cut anytime soon.
I'm actually main-decking it now, with Wipe away in the side. The only time the split second is relevant is against miracles - no other deck has counterspells and something that we really want to remove. Right? Or am I forgetting something?
Yea when I realized over the course of 4 Opens in a row I had gone up against counterbalance 1 time, I realized I could go down from 2 to 1 Wipe Away in the sideboard. The Capsize took that slot and worst case scenario against Miracles, if I can cunning wish and it resolves, then capsize will probably resolve too, so I can put 1 Wipe away in the main games 2/3 against miracles, and still have a counterbalance target in the sideboard.
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
I play red , so my miracles tech is Vexing Shusher. But that's let me cut all the wipe aways, so I've got 1 capsize main and 1 side. I don't need wipe away for anything else, right?
Wipe away is super good. Just off the top of my head, some dnt players try to be cute and leave a vial@2 untapped so they can flash in some dickhead hatebear while you try to combo off. Wiping away vial saves you from that tomfoolery. Against URW delver they're going to be able to prevent Cannonist (I know not everyone has him, but some do) from being bounced by non split second spells but wipe away will always get it done.
Vexing shusher sounds a little too cute for me. He needs so much red mana to be worthwhile. Is he really that much better than Grid? I've never played with him in this deck. Splashing red is probably still terrible.
Splashing red really takes some of the incremental advantage we get by nerfing their wastes.
For me, missing a land drop or getting a land wasted is about the worst thing to happen. I want 5 lands on turn 5, without fail.
Yeah, I've been over the red argument before. What it comes down to for me is that no deck has both wasteland and Emrakul, so just don't fetch red if you don't need to. We see enough cards to ensure we always get islands if we want, and even if we're up against, say, D&T, trading a land drop in exchange for pyroclasming all their hatebears has proved to be worth it to me.
Anyways, I don't really like Defense Grid. It keeps us from doing EOT plays before we go off, like bounce, wish, or intuition.
Good point about the vial/canonist things though. Meddling mage too against miracles.
Running this tomorrow at a GPT:
11 Island
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Time Spiral
3 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Merchant Scroll
3 High Tide
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Turnabout
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Impulse
2 Swan Song
3 Pact of Negation
1 Intuition
3 Cunning Wish
SB: 1 Intuition
SB: 1 High Tide
SB: 2 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Swan Song
How did it go?
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