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Thread: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

  1. #81
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by feline View Post
    Understood, technically asking is just that, asking, and it is important to question everything as a base.
    Definitely, though in retrospect, it was a pretty obviously terrible question given just how far back Daze can actually set you back in your gameplan. Ah well. Least it's not as bad as the embarrassing statement I made in the Maverick thread last week.
    Main deck: Maverick
    Secondary decks: High Tide // Affinity
    MTGO decks: Affinity

  2. #82

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Hi everybody and congrats to Feline for the incredibly complete primer.
    I'm an european player and I would like to point out some facts about the candleless version of the deck.
    It seems to me that most of the information you posted about Candleless Tide is taken from E.Becker's list, which might be a good list but it is also not really standard, and full of questionable (edit: what I mean is probably "weird", or "unusual") choices. I apologize in advance if I am wrong about that, I might have misunderstood the content as english is not my native speech; also, for the same reason, i don't want to sound mean or harsh, I know the primer is written from the point of view of a seasoned pilot of the candelabra version.
    Anyway, here's what most people in europe would run in the mainboard:

    12 Island
    6 Fetchlands

    4 High Tide
    4 Turnabout
    4 Time Spiral

    4 Brainstorm
    3 or 4 Ponder
    3 or 4 Preordain, depending on the quantity of ponder's
    3 Meditate

    4 Merchant Scroll
    3 Cunning Wish
    1 Intuition

    4 Force of Will
    3 Flusterstorm
    1 Pact of Negation
    Now, a little commentary:
    This deck which is very similar, if not identical, to the one that was posted on the previous Spiral Tide thread around page 60-ish (it won a "first-of-the-year-tournament" somewhere in europe, can't remember where).

    1. First of all, no kill spell maindeck. The Candelabra version, due to its incredible ability to produce big amounts of mana, has access to USZ in the maindeck. USZ not only is a killing spell but also an excellent businness spell. Brain Freeze(which is the standard kill spell for uncandled tide), on the other hand, is an awful draw both in the first seven cards AND while comboing. You want to keep comboing as smooth as possible, without unnecessary bad draws. I didn't post any sideboard on the above list; anyway, most people keep one copy of both USZ and Freeze in their 15 (I do), and they often bring one of them into the mainboard G2-G3 (against opponents who might want to try to discard+extract wishes). I can understand why Becker would run Brain Freeze mainboard into his list, and that strategy has been proved effective. I am just not a big fan of that, and most players here seem to agree with me.

    2. Meditate. I've been following and lurking High Tide threads on this forum for quite a long time now, and I have noticed the card is not thought to be good anymore. Everybody in NA seems to be running one or two copies between mainboard and sideboard. Well, I agree the card itself is bad pre-comboing, but it is really awesome while going off. Plus, at the cost of repeating myself too much, it is clear that without candelabras you can't constantly USZ yourself for 7-8+, and you should consider USZ > Meditate only in that case (well, it depends, but generally USZ is way less convenient; it only gets better when you really have a ton of mana). If you draw meditate post spiral, it is very often the first and most important spell you want to cast -unless it was your first spiral, you have 3 or 4 islands and no merchant/turnabout in hand, and you went off with only tide+spiral, which is already a tough spot-. It is a 3mana +3 card advantage, and the only one source of card advantage of the deck: you can't simply get rid of it while not running candles. As it has been already said in this thread, most uncandled list pack 3 to 4 meditates between MD and SB. And they should.

    3. Intuition. I understand those who don't play that card (even in candleless Tide), but yeah, it is simply too good. It has won me lots of matches and I really believe that it deserves a spot in the MD. Here's the reason: without candelabras you want the full set of turnabouts MD. I am very aware that %'s of reaching a turnabout are higher with one of them in the sideboard. I am also aware, though, that the most important spells while storming are the very first 6-7, when you are generally on your toes mana-wise. Wishing for Turnabout "under 1 high tide cast" and while controlling four islands will only produce one blue mana, which is enough to win I guess, but it is not what I call a good play. Chances that single blue mana will prevent you from failing to combo are very small; and you wasted a cunning wish for that. Therefore, you want to maximize %'s of drawing or scrolling into turnabout. Back to intuition: with a full set of all your key spells in the maindeck, intuition IS the card you want. You can always intution for 3 copies of X when you already used one X (in most cases, x=tide, spiral, or turnabout) and this prevents candleless builds from fizzling A LOT. God, the card is so good that once in my lifetime I witnessed a friend winning a match with my deck, EOT intu'ing into three islands (perfect hand but very short clock and only 3 lands) . Imho the card is too versatile to keep it out of my 60, and you can always bring it out g2.

      >>> On a sidenote, I keep a Snap on my sideboard, which gets convenient (+1 mana, but also -1 creature on the board) when 2 tides have been cast, and very good afterwards. Second sidenote: there actually are people who run 3+1 Turnabouts, and that is because they also pack 2-3 Cloud of Faeries maindeck, which in my opinion is a terrible choice (because untapping 2 lands is not as good as untapping all your lands, Spell Snare is coming back, Faeries can be stifled, bolted them in response to snap, and i don't want filthy creatures in my classy blue full-spell deck )

    4. Support Counters. Remand is not very used, in reality. Along with their fow's, everybody runs:
      - 3 Pacts or
      - 3 Flusterstorm + 1 Pact or
      - 1 Flusterstorm + 1 Pact + 2 Pierce (because no matter how many abrupt decay you can print, Europe tables will always be infested by counterbalances).
      Which is in fact very similar to what candelabra builds run generally.

    5. USZ Kill. I feel that what i have written so far seems very pessimistic about winning a match with blue sun's zenith in a build without candless. You can definitely do that, it just takes longer and a bit more of luck. Anyway, everytime I have wanted to USZ-Kill (vs sneak-show) so far, I have managed to. :)


    This was what I wanted to point out. I know that this primer+thread refers generally to NA metagame and that I am probably your only source about EU-Candleless (you should look up in Germany, they are big fan of candleless builds up there). Still, the thread was a very good read and I felt like I had to contribute to it.
    Greetings.
    Cave (from switzerland too!)

  3. #83
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    I wouldnt' say meditate isn't good, just that I've been finding it weaker in the deck than all the other cards overall, in either case, I know for a fact if I wasn't running candels, I would surely be running Meditate & more than just a 1 of. Before I got candels myself, that was my focus, I would push more Meditates very similar to the list you noted, though I still had 1 turnabout in the sideboard so it wasn't that Exact same setup, I also had a 1 of Mind over Matter in there at the time, since resolving so Meditate after Medidate meant I'd have a bunch of Lands to discard, I also had a higher emphasis on resolving more High Tides, I know when I first started like that I was casting them more because just a few lands in hand would give me alot of mana untapping 1 for 1 island when that island tapped for 6+ mana. As far as Candels or not, in the end, the deck is still the same at it's core, cast high tides, tap, untap, tap, untap etc etc etc, throw in some Spirals, & then cast a kill spell.
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  4. #84

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by feline View Post
    I wouldnt' say meditate isn't good, just that I've been finding it weaker in the deck than all the other cards overall, in either case, I know for a fact if I wasn't running candels, I would surely be running Meditate & more than just a 1 of. Before I got candels myself, that was my focus, I would push more Meditates very similar to the list you noted, though I still had 1 turnabout in the sideboard so it wasn't that Exact same setup, I also had a 1 of Mind over Matter in there at the time, since resolving so Meditate after Medidate meant I'd have a bunch of Lands to discard, I also had a higher emphasis on resolving more High Tides, I know when I first started like that I was casting them more because just a few lands in hand would give me alot of mana untapping 1 for 1 island when that island tapped for 6+ mana. As far as Candels or not, in the end, the deck is still the same at it's core, cast high tides, tap, untap, tap, untap etc etc etc, throw in some Spirals, & then cast a kill spell.
    This is indeed true, running candles makes meditates a lot weaker. And if I remember correctly the previous thread, being able to run less medit's is what makes you room for a full 12x of cantrips, which are better cards pre-combo. I don't run all 12. Anyway, my approach on dead meditate draws is different. I don't like mind over matter, as most of the times i found it was even more of a dead cart than a meditate (or sometimes a wish) is. I usually tend to make card quality out of the lands i draw with meditate by brainstorming them back on the top of the deck and fetching-preordaining/pondering-scrolling-intu'ing them away; which is also good and indirectly produces mana too (because you draw-tutor into more turnabouts and tides). I didn't test MoM very deeply though, perhaps you were using it to constantly go for the USZ kill: in that case it would be more of a key spell and less of a win-more.

    However, 3 Turnabouts md= 30-ish % post spiral, 60-ish % taking scrolls into account, 80% with wishes.
    4 turnabouts md = 40-ish % post spiral, 70% (if i'm correct) with scrolls.

    The two approaches are kinda different, but I feel both are viable.

  5. #85
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    I eventually cut the Mind over Matter anyway, but when it was in there yea, I was pushing for Blue Sun's Zenith even before I got Candels, I'm not sure why now that I think about it, but now that I realize it, I think I've always gone for Blue Sun since the beginning, I don't know why if starting out like that I overlooked Brain Freeze, maybe I just got too used to USZenith when proxy'ing the deck before making it, or I'm just nuts and like to do 50+ mana into X instead of just casting 15+ spells because it takes more cRaZyNeSs!!! ^.^
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  6. #86
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    So here's my updated list I'm planning on playing this weekend:

    1x Blue Sun's Zenith
    4x Brainstorm
    3x Cunning Wish
    3x Flusterstorm
    3x Force of Will
    4x High Tide
    1x Intuition
    3x Meditate
    3x Turnabout

    1x Candelabra of Tawnos

    1x Cloud of Faeries

    4x Merchant Scroll
    3x Ponder
    4x Preordain
    4x Time Spiral

    3x Misty Rainforest
    2x Scalding Tarn
    13x Island

    ///Sideboard:

    1x Blue Sun's Zenith
    1x Brain Freeze
    2x Defense Grid
    1x Echoing Truth
    1x Force of Will
    1x Hibernation
    2x Pact of Negation
    1x Snap
    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Turnabout
    2x Wipe Away

    I decided to take apart my U/R Delver list in an attempt to focus on my main two decks for now, including High Tide, so it opens me up to having an extra Force for the side (in place of a Pact) and 2 Scalding Tarns for the main.

    The things I changed in the side after some thought was Surgicals over Slaughter Pact (since the only reason the Pact was in there in the first place was Iona, I figured I'd rather have something that doesn't kill me and hits other problem cards) and I figure I'll try some Defense Grids. They might not do a whole lot for me but one of the problems I've found myself in before from time to time was losing the counter war. Even if they have islands that are making extra mana, I imagine D Grids will put them back a bit.

    What I'm absolutely sure I'll see this week at this point is U/B Reanimator, MUD (possibly two of these), and UWr Delver. There's also a pretty solid chance of me seeing Oops All Spells, Belcher, Esper Stoneblade, and RUG Delver, based on what I've been seeing these last couple weeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by feline View Post
    I eventually cut the Mind over Matter anyway, but when it was in there yea, I was pushing for Blue Sun's Zenith even before I got Candels, I'm not sure why now that I think about it, but now that I realize it, I think I've always gone for Blue Sun since the beginning, I don't know why if starting out like that I overlooked Brain Freeze, maybe I just got too used to USZenith when proxy'ing the deck before making it, or I'm just nuts and like to do 50+ mana into X instead of just casting 15+ spells because it takes more cRaZyNeSs!!! ^.^
    Only 50+ mana? Psh, you totally gotta get it to 140, draw your whole deck, then Preordain/Ponder and force them to do the same!
    Main deck: Maverick
    Secondary decks: High Tide // Affinity
    MTGO decks: Affinity

  7. #87

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackFlameAshura View Post
    So here's my updated list I'm planning on playing this weekend:
    Pls play the 4th force maindeck :) You can easily cut 1 meditate or the maindeck blue zenith.
    Instead of the force in sideboard + 2nd pact in sideboard, I would play 2 spell pierce. Helps you win against belcher and MUD and lots of other stuff postside. Also Hurkyl's Recall instead of Hibernation, especially if you expect at least some MUD.

  8. #88
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by esthoril View Post
    Pls play the 4th force maindeck :) You can easily cut 1 meditate or the maindeck blue zenith.
    Instead of the force in sideboard + 2nd pact in sideboard, I would play 2 spell pierce. Helps you win against belcher and MUD and lots of other stuff postside. Also Hurkyl's Recall instead of Hibernation, especially if you expect at least some MUD.
    I think 6 maindeck counterspells is fine, personally, especially with tutors everywhere, I'd rather just keep the one in the side so I can wish it if need be. Also helps if someone tries to Surgical my Forces though I don't really think that's going to be very often. I'll see how it goes and if I feel I really need the extra counters that's why I've got my board. From what I've seen with a lot of decks they're the same way, not many counters in the game 1 but have a lot in the side. Also, Recall is probably not a bad idea now you bring that up (though I'll probably play Rebuild myself). I was playing Hibernation for Elves which also pops up regularly but MUD is probably way more problematic.
    Main deck: Maverick
    Secondary decks: High Tide // Affinity
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  9. #89
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackFlameAshura View Post
    I think 6 maindeck counterspells is fine, personally, especially with tutors everywhere, I'd rather just keep the one in the side so I can wish it if need be. Also helps if someone tries to Surgical my Forces though I don't really think that's going to be very often. I'll see how it goes and if I feel I really need the extra counters that's why I've got my board. From what I've seen with a lot of decks they're the same way, not many counters in the game 1 but have a lot in the side. Also, Recall is probably not a bad idea now you bring that up (though I'll probably play Rebuild myself). I was playing Hibernation for Elves which also pops up regularly but MUD is probably way more problematic.
    Please put the 4th Force back in the maindeck. It isn't nearly as good Wishing for it as it is opening it or drawing it. If you are in need to Wish for a counter, you have plenty others available. The instances where you need to burn a Wish for an immediate counter to handle something are incredibly rare, and not nearly as common as using Wish end of turn to grab one to help protect your combo (which in that case Pact is superior). If an opponent ever Surgical Extracts your Forces, then give them a high five for severely misplaying against you. If you truly believe six counters is enough maindeck, then at least run four Force and two Flusterstorm.

    Switch your Ponder and Preordain count. You would always want a full set of Ponder before Preordain because it digs deeper.

    I'd also recommend Hurkyl's Recall over Rebuild. You'll pretty much never see a Chalice on two so that nullifies that argument, and the only reason Rebuild really gets the nod in some builds is because it bounces your Candles as well. However given you only have one that won't happen often, and you're better off using the cheaper, faster Hurkyl's Recall, which is especially important through a deck like MUD's sphere effects. I prefer it myself because of its cost despite the fact I run three Candles myself. I'd definitely run this over Hibernation, which is pretty laughable against Elves anyway given they can simply drop their hand the following turn and go nuts regardless.

  10. #90

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    I like your list, Ashura.
    6 Counterspells is definitely viable, especially in a metagame which is full of decks that will try to outrace you (except that i would not cut FoW #4, but perhaps Fluster #3).
    I quote Esthoril on Spell Pierce SB; it is definitely your better option, as it is the card that hits most of the hate-cards people board in against tide.
    And it opens you to a standard sideout plan that would be -1 Tide -1 Intuition +2 Pierce, which is good against pretty much any deck.
    Are those 1x Faeries gonna be a second candelabra any soon? Or you just like to wish->snap that?

    Edit: On a side note, I'd like to point out another thing, which is pretty obvious, although it is not written on the OP and it could be news for people who just started testing the deck.
    High tide is not always necessary to go off. You always have the two "poor guy's combos", which are:
    -Six islands into Time Spiral
    -Five islands Turnabout into Time Spiral
    And then pray to get a merchant or a tide :D
    Of course you only want to consider those two options when both you and your opponent are at nearly 0 cards in hand, and he/she has a fast clock against you. Still, it has net me some games.

  11. #91
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by Di View Post
    Please put the 4th Force back in the maindeck. It isn't nearly as good Wishing for it as it is opening it or drawing it. If you are in need to Wish for a counter, you have plenty others available. The instances where you need to burn a Wish for an immediate counter to handle something are incredibly rare, and not nearly as common as using Wish end of turn to grab one to help protect your combo (which in that case Pact is superior). If an opponent ever Surgical Extracts your Forces, then give them a high five for severely misplaying against you. If you truly believe six counters is enough maindeck, then at least run four Force and two Flusterstorm.

    Switch your Ponder and Preordain count. You would always want a full set of Ponder before Preordain because it digs deeper.

    I'd also recommend Hurkyl's Recall over Rebuild. You'll pretty much never see a Chalice on two so that nullifies that argument, and the only reason Rebuild really gets the nod in some builds is because it bounces your Candles as well. However given you only have one that won't happen often, and you're better off using the cheaper, faster Hurkyl's Recall, which is especially important through a deck like MUD's sphere effects. I prefer it myself because of its cost despite the fact I run three Candles myself. I'd definitely run this over Hibernation, which is pretty laughable against Elves anyway given they can simply drop their hand the following turn and go nuts regardless.
    Alright alright ya talked me into it :p

    I was planning on fixing the Ponder count just haven't gotten around to it yet.

    As for Rebuild vs Recall the MUD player I know at the store will in fact often go chalice for one and chalice for two. Might not always happen like that but it does and I can cycle the rebuild if I really need to. I have both though so I'll probably playtest both against him and see how it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cave View Post
    I like your list, Ashura.
    6 Counterspells is definitely viable, especially in a metagame which is full of decks that will try to outrace you (except that i would not cut FoW #4, but perhaps Fluster #3).
    I quote Esthoril on Spell Pierce SB; it is definitely your better option, as it is the card that hits most of the hate-cards people board in against tide.
    And it opens you to a standard sideout plan that would be -1 Tide -1 Intuition +2 Pierce, which is good against pretty much any deck.
    Are those 1x Faeries gonna be a second candelabra any soon? Or you just like to wish->snap that?
    I don't know that I'd board out one of my high tides ever really. I'd sooner take out a meditate than a high tide. And I'd certainly like the cloud to become a candel. The snap is there for the cloud of faeries, yes, but mainly to bounce problematic creatures in general. It works both ways for me.
    Main deck: Maverick
    Secondary decks: High Tide // Affinity
    MTGO decks: Affinity

  12. #92

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackFlameAshura View Post
    I don't know that I'd board out one of my high tides ever really.
    As I said, I know nothing about NA metagame, but a lot of decks here pack discard or counter spells, and pretty much everybody has some sort of exraction tool in their Sideboard.
    Chances of counter/discard+surgical/extirpate are low. Still, I personally don't want that to happen. And if it happens, I want some way out.

  13. #93
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Maybe I'm crazy or overly cautious, but against any opponent I assume the worst, and just about 100% of the time games 2-3, I sideboard out 1 High Tide.

    The only exception might be against something like Belcher or Ad Nauseam Storm decks, where they plan to kill the opposing graveyard based decks faster, & their sideboard is wish dedicated, usually devoting the remaining spots to things like Xantid Swarm, Pyroblast etc, anti blue stuff.
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  14. #94
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackFlameAshura View Post
    I don't know that I'd board out one of my high tides ever really. I'd sooner take out a meditate than a high tide. And I'd certainly like the cloud to become a candel. The snap is there for the cloud of faeries, yes, but mainly to bounce problematic creatures in general. It works both ways for me.
    You should be boarding out a High Tide nearly every single match. With the exception of decks that threaten to race you (Storm, Dredge, Burn) where speed is more important, you should be boarding out a High Tide in virtually all other matchups to maximize Cunning Wish's effectiveness in the face of hate, be it additional discard/disruption or Surgical Extraction.

    EDIT: What Feline said above as well.

  15. #95
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Well the more you know then I guess. I suppose I've still got plenty to learn about the deck hehe
    Main deck: Maverick
    Secondary decks: High Tide // Affinity
    MTGO decks: Affinity

  16. #96
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    I didn't know Anwar Ahmed played High Tide at the Washington DC open last week, that's awesome!

    ~Sorry for the randomness~

    -edit- 42nd out of 268, I'd say he did alright ^.^
    Last edited by feline; 03-23-2013 at 07:19 AM.
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  17. #97

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by feline View Post
    I didn't know Anwar Ahmed played High Tide at the Washington DC open last week, that's awesome!

    ~Sorry for the randomness~
    Did he do well? Can't find anything on the web, just a two-years-old tide list of him.

  18. #98

    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    I have a question for all of you, in which order are you playing your cantrips post Spiral? I guess it depends on the rest of your hand but let's say you open this:

    - Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain + 4 lands/counters.
    - Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Preordain + 4 lands/counters.
    - Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Ponder + 4 lands/counters.
    - Brainstorm, Ponder, Ponder + 4 lands/counters.

    I did not put Top in the list yet

  19. #99
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by feline View Post
    I didn't know Anwar Ahmed played High Tide at the Washington DC open last week, that's awesome!

    ~Sorry for the randomness~

    -edit- 42nd out of 268, I'd say he did alright ^.^
    How do you get that kind of info?
    Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.

  20. #100
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide

    saw that he played against bryant cook in bryant's tournament report, then i went to the event at starcity, looked up the last round standings & saw his name at that placing, I do alot of research ^.^
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

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