I vote buy candles. 1 maindeck Intuition or 1 maindeck Meditate has been done before and they are still nice options.Originally Posted by Stuart
Dig just got banned, so I need something to replace it with. Any ideas, Tide vets? Below is my current list. (Note: I don't own Candles.)
Combo: 12
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
Draw/Tutor: 22
2 Dig Through Time
1 Intuition
2 Cunning Wish
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
1 Retraced Image
Protection: 8
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
Mana: 18
6 Fetches
12 Island
Board: 15
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Wipe Away
2 Pact of Negation
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Teferi's Realm
2 Defense Grid
My first thoughts are:
- Replace Dig with Meditate. I ran this before Dig and liked it, but I feel like it's just devolving to a weaker form.
- Replace Dig with more Intuitions and/or Cunning Wish.
- Go for a more controlly build and try out a few Counterbalances and Tops. I've played Top as a 1-of in the Retraced Image slot; as a singleton it didn't do much, but the Countertop package could be nice.
- Go more cantrippy with replace Dig with some Gitaxian Probes.
- Buy Candles
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
Thanks Feline! I know you're right about Candles, but that pricetag . . .
I still love Intuition, and Meditate was solid back when I was running it. I guess I'll play around with the options I mentioned and see what feels right. My concern either way is that without Dig in the format, discard will rear its head and make life for High Tide difficult.
Actually less opposing blue and more discard is a good thing, you can't fight counterspells with sensei's tops and brainstorms, and you can cast your flusterstorms earlier to stop discard, where against counterspells you have to fight back during the combo turn which, when first starting can suck up precious mana. I hope the perspective helps and is motivating when I say, I am very glad discard will be on the up, I Want to go against decks like Jund and BUG and stoneblade strategies like I use to. It is very possible that if enough people get on the band wagon High Tide will make a resurgence of some kind.
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
What changes to Solidarity/reset high tide would there be in place of DTT? I started buying the cards for spiral/reset just this morning because it looked very fun to play-I figured I'd play reset while I slowly grind at candles-then I saw that DTT got banned, lol.
You cant straight replace DTT with one card. increase some numbers. (4 snapcasters is first thing if you didnt have them in already)
I played single Flash of Insight before Dig got printed. Anyway this is propably wrong thread for solidarity discussion?
Play Past in Flames. The red splash isn't as debilitating as people make it out to be. Just play around wasteland (not hard) and adjust your sideboard accordingly (less concern vs permission).Dig just got banned, so I need something to replace it with. Any ideas, Tide vets? Below is my current list. (Note: I don't own Candles.)
- Buy Candles
You get full leverage of intuition that makes the deck even more consistent and acts as its own engine allowing you to combo more frequently then you think without needing to find Time Spiral. Added bonus is more sideboard options for postboard games.
This. Turning Merchant Scroll into a win con is awesome. Winning without spiral is awesome. Red splash is amazing here now.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
So without out Dig Through Time's I will confidently move back to a wishboard and Candelabra deck list.
With Dig Through Time gone, my best guess is that we'll see less Ominshow and more Sneak & Show. The Grixis Delver player base will shrink, but BUG Delver might resurge to prey on Sneak & Show. Hymn to Tourach is viable as well.
What cards go in our sideboard and main-deck flex spots more BUG delver?
Right now I have a main-deck Wipe Away, and in my sideboard I have been thinking about Polymorphist's Jest, Teferi's Realm, and Back to Basics.
It's absolutely motivating! Discard has always been the most problematic strategy for me, so it's encouraging to hear that you aren't worried
Very interesting thought - I'll give it a try. Assuming you have/are playing the red splash, how many duals and Past in Flames are you running?
I don't know that it does much against BUG, but I want to cast my vote for Teferi's Realm. It's amazing against DnT and MUD, amongst other things. I haven't looked back since I first put 2 in my board.What cards go in our sideboard and main-deck flex spots more BUG delver?
Right now I have a main-deck Wipe Away, and in my sideboard I have been thinking about Polymorphist's Jest, Teferi's Realm, and Back to Basics.
(On a side note, I wound up replacing my pair of Digs with 2 Tops. I'm thinking of bringing it in for Legacy next week; I'll let you guys know how it plays.)
2 Volcanic Islands and 1 Past in Flames.
Remember a major benefit is getting full value (and abusing) Intuition. This encourages you to adjust the deck construction accordingly and ultimately, at least in my case, generated what felt like a more consistent deck with a faster velocity and more protection. That was a long way of saying merely cutting Candles for 1 Past in Flames an a few Intuitions isn't realizing the full value.
Enjoy
Looking back it looked like I suggested three specific cards for the BUG Delver match up, whoops! Sorry!
To clarify, I like Polymorphist's Jest to combat the hate bears etc. in decks like Death & Taxes, Maverick, and MUD. But perhaps Teferi's Realm overlaps this slot, although not a Cunning Wish target. As for non-wishable targets, I have 2 Defense Grids and either 2 Back to Basics or 2 Teferi's Realm. I will be goldfishing until next weekend's LGS tournament. I won't really know how Back to Basics will perform until then, it just seems like an idea worth trying.
I have been happy with 2 Tops, I ran them along with 2 Digs too ;-). To make room, the precious playset of Preordain was shifted to the back of the box (with the other bench-warmers). I've yet to take a list without all 11/12 cantrips, but that day is coming nearer!
Brought Tide in for my weekly Legacy last night. Decent turnout - 14 or 16, I think? All new matchups for me. Ran this list:
Combo: 12
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
Draw/Tutor: 22
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Intuition
2 Cunning Wish
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
1 Retraced Image
Protection: 8
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
Mana: 18
6 Fetches
12 Island
Board: 15
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away
2 Pact of Negation
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Teferi's Realm
2 Defense Grid
Round 1: rogue RB discard deck: 2-0
- Game 1: He's off to a slow start, spending his first few turns playing things like Waste Not. I build up my combo and hold countermagic to protect myself from discard, then go off turn 4. Get there with Brain Freeze + Blue Sun's.
- Game 2: He's in the same situation as last time, so I go off turn 4 and Blue Sun's him for 80.
Round 2: Esper Mentor: 2-1
- Game 1: I start off with a pretty solid hand (a couple islands, cantrips, a Tide, and a Time Spiral). His turn 1 Deathrite leads to a turn 2 Mentor, and then he Therapies my hand into oblivion.
- Game 2: (Board: -2 Top, +2 Defense Grid) He draws 3 Therapies (!), but I counter 1 of them and still have a Time Spiral in my hand. Luckily he doesn't have a clock on me. Turn 3 I land a Defense Grid, and Turn 4 topdeck a High Tide and go off. Brain Freeze + Blue Sun's gets me there.
- Game 3: Therapy doesn't show up, but Mentor's got me at lethal going into Turn 4. I try to go off . . . and he doesn't counter my Tide! Brain Freeze + Blue Sun's does it again.
Round 3: Sneak & Show: 0-2
- Game 1: I durdle around with cantrips while he Show and Tells a Griselbrand. That leads to 14 cards, a Sneak Attack'd Emrakul, and a game loss for me.
- Game 2: (Board: -2 Top, -2 Cunning Wish, -1 Retraced Image, -1 Preordain, +2 Defense Grid, +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Pact of Negation) He's off to a slow start, but he's Intuition'd up some Emrakuls, so I know he's close to comboing off. On my Turn 4 I've got a High Tide, Turnabout, Time Spiral, and 2 Pact in my hand. Seems good, right? I cast High Tide, he Red Blasts it. I Pact the Red Blast, he Swan Songs the Tide. I Pact the Swan Song, and he Flusterstorms the Tide! Ugh. I die next turn when I can't pay for the Pacts.
Round 4: Bant: 0-2
- Game 1: I have the full combo in my hand pretty early and things are looking good. Then Clique comes down to steal my High Tide. Next turn Karakas . . . you know how that goes. He's got a Batterskull online, so I die shortly thereafter.
- Game 2: (Board: -2 Top, +2 Defense Grid) I'm not familiar with Bant, and since I didn't see any Thalia effects Game 1, I didn't think to bring in Wipe Away, Rebuild, or Teferi's Realm. Welllll, he gets down a turn 2 Ethersworn Canonist, and after he Forces my Cunning Wish, I can't find a solution for it and he kills me eventually.
Thoughts:
- So it was a mediocre night; I felt great after rounds 1 and 2, but got deflated by Sneak and Show and never really recovered. That said, I was fairly happy with Tide - I hadn't played it in a couple months, and it didn't totally roll over in the new meta! I can see nights like this becoming 3-1 or 4-0 nights under the right circumstances.
- I reallllly like the singleton Retraced Image. It occasionally lets me go off Turn 3, and it's pretty nice when you're Spiraling. For those of you without Candles, give it a try.
- Between this and goldfishing, I'm not sure Top is the right fit. Occasionally it's saved me from fizzling, but on early turns when I'm trying to cantrip/tutor for combo pieces, it's pretty mana intensive. Maybe I'll switch it for Meditate?
- People are scared of Defense Grid. It got countered a lot.
If you aren't playing Capsize, Top probably isn't worth it. And if you aren't playing Candels, Capsize isn't worth it.
"I have a dream that my children will one day play in a tournament where they will not be judged by the color of their cards but by the execution of their play."
Testing this atm
4 High Tide
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Time Spiral
3 Cunning Wish
3 Flusterstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Turnabout
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
6 Island
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Snap
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Meditate
Resoning behind cards
2 Candels: Needed to try 3 land combo and to get easy BSZ kills, think 2 are enought
1 BSZ: Could be in the SB, but i feel like is easier for us to get a MD slot than a SB one
1 Pact of negation: Again, not really a key card but is generally usefull to have it, could be a cut
16 Lands: Feel like we have to take a gamble in order to play tide atm, we have harder to get 4 lands (but we will draw into it via spiral if we dont have it already) but we get way better spirals in general, also i feel ok about the 4 landr drop turn 4 ratio, it happens like 80% of the time so far
1 Trop 4 Grip: feel its the only way to play in a miracle metagame, having to face a god amount of miracle we need a good answer to CTop, wipe away is nowhere near as good, given that you cant resolve multiple CBs in eot, that you likely want to turnabout them in eot too and that they have much more freedom to setup a 3 drop on top if you must eot them, 4 grips are often a bit too much but we must be able to get one at least even if we are not cantripping as much
3 xantid: again really key vs miracle, postboard is pretty hard to come up on top considering their amount of counters (likely 4 fow 2 CS 2/3 fluster 2/3 pyro 2/3 vendilion 2/3 snapcaster), think xantid is our best shot, also it helps vs a good number of bad or close MU as merfolks (usually good but generally worse since they pack a playset of COTV) and reanimator/tell decks
1 Snap: usually not as a wish target but as a board in vs creature based, is pretty good just for tempo even if we dont have much to remove
1 Slaughter pact: againg mostly a board in card, i like to board 4 answer to creatures in mu like goblins or aggro loam
1 Freeze: still think is needed, mostly for 3 lands combo and for bad spirals
Testing is not going so bad after all, given that if you play tide you do it for love, not for playing the best deck.
Thoughs on the list?
"You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"
I like the idea of cutting land. I don't think I would go down to 16, but 17 could work. The new mulligan rule helps a lot.
"I have a dream that my children will one day play in a tournament where they will not be judged by the color of their cards but by the execution of their play."
You can also borrow the Solidarity Tech of Hunting Pack to randomly Eot Tide into Turnabout into Cunning Wish into some 4/4s.
Hello all,
I have been eyeing High Tide for a while now because it really appeals to me. It seems like their very high stakes for the chance to fizzle and get no reward. I love the idea of this deck, and I realize it isn't a tier 1 deck anymore. I also play Death and Taxes which seems to be more tier1/1.5 now that Dig is gone.
I posted this in the MtgSalvation thread as well I simply want opinions because I haven't seen it tested:
What are thoughts about 3 - 4 leyline of sanctity? I realize the mull to hit one is not ideal, but to stop discard entirely beyond pox could this work? Would that be viable? I am looking at ways to not die to discard. I think if 1 wipe away is in main and 1 in board, that could improve miracles.
Or another option is to play top and counterbalance (CB sided) stick it on a 1 drop and hopefully counter any hymms.
Thoughts?
With Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll, Intuition, and Sensei's Top (I play two tops, no counterbalance), discard doesn't hurt that badly. If they are making you discard, they aren't presenting a clock, and you can reload better than they can thanks to tutors + cantrips. My roommate plays Jund with three maindeck hymns, so I get a lot of practice against discard. It really isn't that bad.
A common line is this:
Turn 2, have no Tide or Spiral in hand, have Merchant Scroll. You could scroll for tide, but then you don't know that you'll get a spiral. So you scroll for intuition, and use it once you find one piece to get the other.
The problem with leyline is that, if we aren't playing pox, they'll have a clock that we can't compete with if we mull to leyline. If we mull to 5 for leyline, we've just hymned ourselves, and then they can just play a goyf/delver/zombiefish and kill us.
As far as fizzling goes, it really doesn't happen very often. Sure, its possible, but after you've played with the deck a bit it almost never does.
"I have a dream that my children will one day play in a tournament where they will not be judged by the color of their cards but by the execution of their play."
Not really, if you start with a decent setup (1 tide, 4 lands into a spiral) you have like an 80% to not fizzle in my experience, sure thing if you cut the brainfreeze and rely on BSZ only to finish the fizzle are a bit more.
Leyline is not really needed, this deck have a better time vs discard then counters imho, you have 3/4 flusterstorms, fow and brainstorm and you can recover form a single discard (just dont go ham on intuition if you fear a discard, wait for the last possible moment, usually an EOT to go for it.
Uh also small thing, if you dont have candels your chance to fizzle is a bit higher.
And again, you have no reason to fear himn, if ou are scared just pack 4 flusters and some swan song between MD and SB.
The real problem with the deck is just miracles being a real nightmare, you have to fight against a redicolous amount of counters (reb and fluster are the worst) up to 3 cliques and CBTop, for this reason i reccomend green sb for KGrip and xantid swarm, wipe away is much worse and experienced player will punish you for run it if possible (aka 3drop an top always except in draw step, and if you bounce in draw they just recast the counterbalance).
Hope it helped, if you have more questions feel free to ask
"You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"
No.for this reason i reccomend green sb for KGrip and xantid swarm, wipe away is much worse and experienced player will punish you for run it if possible (aka 3drop an top always except in draw step, and if you bounce in draw they just recast the counterbalance).
Hope it helped, if you have more questions feel free to ask
Kgrip = wipe away = 3 CMC.
You don't play wipe away / KGrip during draw step. End of upkeep is the last moment to play it properly.
Beginning of draw step, you don't have any priority and the act of drawing the first card during the draw step does not go onto the stack so that your opponent will always get to draw first before you can cast any spell in this step.
Therefore, playing Kgrip/Wipe at the end of draw step is asking to meet the 3 drop lock.
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