I'll be playing this list on High Tide. The field seems to be much reanimator, miracles and lands with some random delver and bug.
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
4x Brainstorm
4x Merchant Scroll
3x Cunning Wish
1x Meditate
4x Force of Will
4x Flusterstorm
4x High Tide
2x Candelabra of Tawnos
1x Snap
3x Turnabout
4x Spiral Tide
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Scalding Tarn
12x Island
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Rebuild
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Turnabout
1x Meditate
2x Pact of Negation
1x Wipe Away
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Snap
1x Capsize
2x Grafdigger's Cage
Only have access to 2 candels
I know I need a few cards but what I have so far is pleasing and I can still win. Usually from brainfreeze/remand with BSZ, I scored a time spiral; working on finishing out the last 400$ for the deck.
I only play this deck in our FNM casual night and have no intention on winning. Just having fun and annoying the kids that like to conspire against me because I'm the oldest and know the game better than they do.
Now problems I am having.
I draw extensive amounts of lands all the time.
I usually never see counter magic no matter how much I dig for them, 75% of the time see only lands or cantrip when I need tutor or just an untap.
In the above situation I end up using cantrips and the only untapper I can use is snap to get me going again.
If I shuffle away with ponder 90% of the time I get a land on the draw. I usually scry them lands away just to draw another land!
No wish board as I have no wishes yet(need fow, Flusterstorm, and more).
I was using 2 tops in place of ideas and the single spiral and found it extremely lackluster.
The good
I love having SCM, he's great at everything.
I love snap because 90% of every deck in legacy has a creature I can bounce, even if I don't have SCM as the optimal target its another untap effect.
Has yet to be a dead card, also fow fodder, snap a snapcaster to snap a snap, to snap snap.
It's a easy way to build a storm count and use multiple MScroll (if I didn't spiral them away) to keep the snap chain going then go for the win.
I use this tactic if I'm low on lands and can't tutor for a more expensive untap effect.
This was the primary line of play for my deck and was working very well.
Most of my opponents were using casual decks with solid plans of attack. So they put up very good fights, no way would I be confident in taking this(or a best case build) to a large event.
Sorry for the wall, enough reading just have a gander.
Last edited by Sidneyious; 04-20-2016 at 09:57 AM.
Is high tide dead?
Is the card selection of 50-55 for a core and rest is optional?
As it is I can't do a t3 win, I need 4-5 lands and at 4 its questionable.
By snapping SCM a lot for snaps and turnabouts I can make ridiculous mana with just 2 high tide. If I have 5-6 it gets nutty, if I sxm a 3rd and or find more along the way 7 is the most I have been able to generate and its gets nuts after that.
Still as I dig for lands and counter magic I get the opposite.
As I see your list it has a lot of mana generation but not a lot of card drawing.Originally Posted by Sidneyious
The high tide engine functions in two parts Mana and Drawing
The typical mana cards are candlesticks, turnabout, and time spiral.
The typical drawing cards are meditate, time spiral, and BSZ.
You seem to have a lot of ways to generate mana but not quite enough ways to turn that mana into a win.
The first thing I would consider is cutting two snaps and a turnabout for the full 4 time spirals.
If you can't do that due to budgetary reasons try replacing two of the snaps with either meditate or impulse; if you want to get really spicey you could even try something like pieces of the puzzle.
No matter which way, high tide is supposed to be a turn 4 deck. It's a classical combo deck in the sense that you want to in general wait until the last possible moment to combo.
I don't know your specific meta which could be pushing you to combo as fast as possible (Belcher, MUD, Eldrazi)
The second thing is that you really want cunning wishes, they are part of what makes the deck playable being able to find whatever you need from protection to draw to artifact bounce to mana is incredibly powerful.
Last but not least, consider how you play your cantrips especially with the lack of time spirals to bail you out. First priority should be to get to 4 lands, then high tide, then draw engine (in most cases some people do it different).
TL;DR
Time Spiral is great and I think that you may be trying to push the deck to fast.
No love for Pieces of the Puzzle and Pore over the Pages in Spiral builds? Pieces digs for (likely) two cards, and Pore is an extra untap effects and card quality/advantage item.
Tide is helpless unless we get to combo a turn faster, being outclassed by omnitell sucks but that's pretty much it.
"You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"
100% agree, I usually use BSZ to draw a lot (5-6lands,3-4 not so much).
I save time spiral and usually do a BF, with BSZ win, its like a spring tide deck using SCM to full value.
I have acquired 1 wish and that helps, I have 1 meditate I can use but for cost I think ideas is better.
I will do full 55mb spiral tide eventually but I need to decide if I want to sell some cards or hold them.
I have a second TS coming so that helps, I fizzle if I get into a brainstorm lock or if a ponder shuffle nets a land.
I get lands a lot, I almost want to use mana severance just to remove lands that are useless on combo turn.
Thank you all for keeping the deck and conversation alive because I can't get help from many.
I'm considering potp because I don't have all TS, I don't like potp because no untap.
Same acronym, hope you get it.
I have eyeballed this list and I still want to run the snap/snap package.
I still want to run as much counter magic as possible.
But with full TS SCM seems kinda dead and exiling cards is bad and leads to more lands in potential draws.
Can wish still grab exiled cards? I own them and they are outside the game
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11734&d=266890&f=LE
Last edited by Sidneyious; 05-11-2016 at 12:25 PM.
Unfortunately wishes can no longer wish for exiled cards :(
I also like the snap/snap package but from playing solidarity I can tell you that having 4 Snap is too much because often the bottleneck is cards, if you want to run that package I think the best split is 3 Snapcaster 2 Snap.
The problem is that snap just doesn't do enough by itself to make it worth the full 4 slots, I would replace 2 of them with other cantrips if you don't have the time spirals.
I do agree the package gets a lot worse with the full 4 time spirals, but by the time you're casting it you should win anyway.
I like how it gives you a backdoor out to win, I've won way to many games with solidarity with snapcaster + remand beats.
Anyway I feel scm deserves a slot in ST.
Maybe in place of 1 or 2 of the flex spots most people have.
Not sure on the optimal setup to have 2scm and 1(?) snap?
I got so used to having used SCM to get my second high tide online.
OK folks, with every card out there for high tide and you want a list to take to as many possible games for top4.
What do you think is the optimal list?
I am about to finish my deck but most feel strong about specialized selections in the 5-10 cards in the 75.
I have no idea on a meta so I like sideboarding for choices.
I like 5 cards for each type of deck, aggro, combo and resources taxing.
If they can mingle ie efficient for more than 5 that's great.
I have
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/01-04...acy-high-tide/
Want
2 fow
4 Flusterstorm
1 intuition
2-3 cunning wish (have one need to remove something)
3 tspiral
I have leads on 1-2 want 4(duh?)
Has anyone ran 3 time spiral mb, 1sb to wish for because of "that deck"?
Or do you say FI and do that during g2-3?
Need ideas on what would be beat to run for a full TS build that been playing snaptide?
You use Burning Wish to grab the sorcery?
Haha brain fart. Yeah sorry totally forgot wish is instant only.
Sorry i'm being a nuisance but I'm working on a list and I am coming up short, no candles in the budget right now.
Not sure what to fill in, my shopping cart is already crazy right now and im losing my mind on the thought process on how I want to finish out a real time spiral list.
meta is 100% random and I cant even guess what I can see from week to week
57 mb
10 island
8 fetch
4 high tide
4 Time Spiral
3 turnabout
4 merchant scroll
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 preordain
3 cunning wish
1 Intuition
1 meditate
4 fow
3 flusterstorm
10sb
1 blue sun’s zenith
1 brain freeze
1 turnabout
1 hurkyl’s recall
1 rebuild
1 echoing truth
1 ravenous trap
1 surgical extraction
1 flusterstorm
1 wipe away
Last edited by Sidneyious; 05-15-2016 at 11:13 PM.
Perhaps you could try some Retraced Image?
Possible, I may drop 1 preordain for a top.
I can see how useful image can be, but what about mana severance?
I'd play Past in Flames and at least 1 more intuition
I think I will do 3 retraced image.
What is the consensus on the number of fetch lands being right?
Not sure what to do about the last 5 cards for the sideboard.
1 chain of vapor
2 Spell pierce or swan song
1 snap
1 Meditate
This is not consensus, but I've found it to be very good.
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Cunning Wish
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Intuition
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Flusterstorm
1 Swan Song
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Capsize
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
10 Island
1 Flex Spot, meta-dependent
Sideboard
1 Turnabout
1 Intuition
2 Teferi's Realm
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Capsize
1 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
Tide's weak matchups have always been super-fast (dredge) and super-slow (miracles) decks. So I board into Show & Tide, boarding out Candelabras, Wish, and other cards depending on the matchup - sometimes including USZ. Your win condition is either turn 3 show & tell (with a lot more countermagic than regular S&T), or generate 15 mana and hard-cast Emrakul.
Notes:
Candelabra + Capsize goes infinite (usually), add Top to that combo and you draw your deck.
1 of Snapcaster makes Intuition a lot stronger.
You can cunning wish for Extraction.
Teferi's realm laughs at D&T and MUD.
I would never play meditate unless it was in the board. The card is dead if you aren't comboing that turn.
If the meta is right, I'll play a 1-of dual land splash for the right flex card. Don't do it willy-nilly, but if you play properly you'll be fine. You'll lose some games because of it, but if you picked the right flex card you'll win more games than you'll lose.
Hope this helps!
Unfortunately though, I'm selling my Candelabras for personal reasons. If anyone is interested in NM artist-signed candels, please pm me :)
"I have a dream that my children will one day play in a tournament where they will not be judged by the color of their cards but by the execution of their play."
After some discussion a reworked candless list.
Still working on the sideboard, kinda want to just add the other 3 snap and 2 SCM.
8 fetch
10 island
4 high tide
4 time spiral
4 turnabout
4 merchant scroll
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 preordain
4 force of will
3 Flusterstorm
1 swan song
2 intuition
3 cunning wish
1 snap
1 surgical extraction
1 ravenous trap
1 Flusterstorm
1 wipe away
1 echoing truth
1 rebuild
1 hurkyl's recall
1 brain freeze
1 blue sun zenith
1 chain of vapor
Sorry, I missed that you wanted candleless.
Honestly, if you want to play Spiral Tide without Candles, you can do pretty much whatever you want.
I would definitely move a turnabout sideboard so you can wish for it, and a blue sun's zenith maindeck. With 12 cantrips, you aren't going to hit it if you don't want it, and it can be really good mid combo.
"I have a dream that my children will one day play in a tournament where they will not be judged by the color of their cards but by the execution of their play."
Snap + SCM is not really that efficient of a package. Pre-combo you would rather merchant scroll / Intuition (more efficient) rather than SCM a cantrip. Snap is marginal versus most of the metagame. Post combo you need both cards that only accomplish what turnabout can do in one card. You then require other cards in the yard to add value which is unlikely after Time Spiral, considering you only get a fresh 7.
I think the draft you have above is a better starting point. There is an argument for a turnabout in the board but for mono blue and no candles, I would argue 4 is better (more on that below) . I would also advocate (in a mono blue version) that you want more meditate and less intuition. Not stellar pre-combo, still has its uses (vs combo, discard, slow decks, heavy blue control, etc), but necessary post combo.
You got to remember that pre-combo all that matters is getting high tide and time spiral to resolve. Post combo, make mana and draw cards. That's all obvious but consider how Candles reduce a requirement to draw specific cards post combo and can be reused as you combo. This further reduces the requirement for specifics, or the mana investment required to tutor specifics, as the combo continues. Candle'less builds that splash green or red accomplish the same thing in a different way (Explore or Past in Flames). So as a mono blue deck you need an efficient replacement. Draw 4 for 3 mana fits that in my book. Rather than Candles or alternatives to a "candle effect" you power through with basic card advantage to draw the high tide / turnabouts / time spirals you need to continue the combo
I actually prefer a Candle'less build with a red splash to a Candles. All variants have pros / cons.
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