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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

  1. #501
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    noob question - if you have a hand which allows you to put Belcher but not to activate it would you keep it or bin it? I know it depends whether you expect it to be countered, if that is a hand of 7 or 6, how much mana will you need to activate it but is this a sensible way to play?

  2. #502

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    I'd keep that hand, all things being equal. Maybe try to slow play the hand, if the next draw step allows you to cast and activate. It really depends on what you're playing against- will they draw into counterspells, will they draw into other forms of hate. But yeah, you can put an opponent on tilt by casting a Belcher and them just looking at their potential game loss on the table across from them.

    Also, keep the hand because each mulligan is going to make it harder and harder to win.

  3. #503
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    I'd keep that hand, all things being equal. Maybe try to slow play the hand, if the next draw step allows you to cast and activate. It really depends on what you're playing against- will they draw into counterspells, will they draw into other forms of hate. But yeah, you can put an opponent on tilt by casting a Belcher and them just looking at their potential game loss on the table across from them.

    Also, keep the hand because each mulligan is going to make it harder and harder to win.
    thanks. got one more question regarding Diminishing Returns. What is it's purpose? I noticed that if I gathered enough mana/storm to cast Burning Wish for a 4cmc tool why not go for Empty? I tried once to grab Returns to try it and ended up with a hand of 7 manamakers, huge storm but no kill.

  4. #504

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    it is there when you can't kill with goblins, like when your opponent has a ratchet bomb or some sweepers( seen from gitaxian probe before its ban haha) etc it's clunky but it's mandatory

  5. #505
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by AmokPL View Post
    noob question - if you have a hand which allows you to put Belcher but not to activate it would you keep it or bin it? I know it depends whether you expect it to be countered, if that is a hand of 7 or 6, how much mana will you need to activate it but is this a sensible way to play?
    Peanut butter and JAAAAAAAAM. Especially if you can get to five or six mana without sacrificing Petals; you'll be Daze proof, and (maindeck?) Abrupt Decay isn't boss enough to hit our Goblin of Arson Gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmokPL View Post
    thanks. got one more question regarding Diminishing Returns. What is it's purpose? I noticed that if I gathered enough mana/storm to cast Burning Wish for a 4cmc tool why not go for Empty? I tried once to grab Returns to try it and ended up with a hand of 7 manamakers, huge storm but no kill.
    If you end up with mana floating and you've only used one Wish to get you there, you're more likely to kill with Tendrils than you are to come up empty. That's actually one reason I'm coming around to Manamorphose in the new metagame.

    Another thing about Diminishing Returns: it forces the opponent to mulligan. Not as good in Legacy as it is in Commander (and definitely no good against control), but still something to bear in mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  6. #506
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by AmokPL View Post
    noob question - if you have a hand which allows you to put Belcher but not to activate it would you keep it or bin it? I know it depends whether you expect it to be countered, if that is a hand of 7 or 6, how much mana will you need to activate it but is this a sensible way to play?
    In order for any Belcher hand to do anything, you need:

    Business
    At least one initial mana source to cast your fast mana
    At least two other mana cards to get you to 4+ mana in order to cast your business

    I would likely keep every hand that is capable of actually making plays on turn 1. You haven't provided any context that would make me choose not to keep that hand--if there is any consideration for throwing that sort of hand back, it would be entirely based on the number of mana sources available after putting Belcher in play.

    Your cards are very redundant, but you're playing a 4+ card combo deck. If you mulligan, what are the odds that your new hand would actually be functional, let alone kill faster than playing Turn 1 Belcher and waiting for mana?

    Quote Originally Posted by AmokPL View Post
    thanks. got one more question regarding Diminishing Returns. What is it's purpose? I noticed that if I gathered enough mana/storm to cast Burning Wish for a 4cmc tool why not go for Empty? I tried once to grab Returns to try it and ended up with a hand of 7 manamakers, huge storm but no kill.
    Diminishing Returns is for situations where Empty the Warrens is too slow. Empty the Warrens making less than 20 Goblins gives your opponent two turns to respond. Against opposing combo decks like Storm, Reanimator etc., that's very likely not fast enough to win before your opponent performs their own combo. In those situations, having the option to cast Diminishing Returns opens up many options that wouldn't leave you dead to an opposing combo; you could possibly kill with Belcher, possibly kill with Tendrils if you're playing one, possibly make 20+ Goblins with Empty the Warrens to take a turn off of your clock, possibly give your opponent a non-functional hand, and in some cases it's relevant that you shuffled your opponent's graveyard into their library

  7. #507
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    awesome. thank you all for the answers.

  8. #508

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Hi there,

    I haven't been active for a long time but I have updated the .PDF with 2 lists that include Street Wraith in order to take the probe's ban into account : http://trall3.free.fr/belcher/Belcher.pdf

    TLDR :
    - Swap probe for SW, still good but ~1 gob less on average
    - Keep playing 4 wraith and don't go full ritual !

    By the way something interesting came through my head : what if we had 4 probe & 4 wraith instead of mox & P. Ritual... I have made 1 simulation (not written in the doc since it's not usefull anymore) but :
    - ***** hand dropped to 17.6 % instead of 18.4 % --> very good
    - Belcher win T1 up to 13.2 % instead of 11.8 % (T1 win) + 1.2 % (T2 win) --> faster and overall a little better
    - Gob's 31.1 % instead of ~30.5 % (less fizzle hand -> more gob's hand)
    - Mean gob : 13.7 +- 3.5 (= the same)

    The fact that we increase overall fizzle rate & belcher T1 seems quite fun (but belcher dropped T1 and activated T2 drop to ~0 % in this case cause no mox in list) but well... This list is now illegal.

    Please keep in mind that chrome mox are good for :
    - Persisting mana sources (= belcher t2 or grinding game)
    - Recycle business spell (= OK with 11, so so with 10, and probably almost bad with 8 (or 9) BP)

    Which isn't exaclty in the objective of maximizing T1 win / action that's why I still love the 2 moxen in the recommanded list.

    Feel free to discuss Smile
    By the way if you have specific list to test that aren't close to the one in the doc, I can provide results.

  9. #509
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Anyone been tinkering with the new Sphinx? I've been goldfishing it in All Spells, and I think it's got promise.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  10. #510
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Anyone been tinkering with the new Sphinx? I've been goldfishing it in All Spells, and I think it's got promise.
    The Scry 3 sphinx? Why??? When is Belcher ever going to draw the top 3 cards?

    If you're on the play, you hope to never see any of those 3 cards before deploying your win condition (Belcher/goblins), even if you don't win turn 1.

    If you're on the draw, maybe the free Portent fixing your first draw could help improve the quality of your hand. But then you're also playing with a dead card in hand, so best case the Sphinx digs you into another card to make up for the dud in your hand. Seems terribad.

  11. #511
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    The Scry 3 sphinx? Why??? When is Belcher ever going to draw the top 3 cards?

    If you're on the play, you hope to never see any of those 3 cards before deploying your win condition (Belcher/goblins), even if you don't win turn 1.

    If you're on the draw, maybe the free Portent fixing your first draw could help improve the quality of your hand. But then you're also playing with a dead card in hand, so best case the Sphinx digs you into another card to make up for the dud in your hand. Seems terribad.
    Feels no worse than Probe in a number of situations; seems like picking six out of ten for our first draw step may be better than picking seven out of seven. But maybe you're right. That's why I was asking. I'll concede readily that the reason I'm interested in using it in All Spells is that the deck needs better consistency and protection, which the card appears to facilitate.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  12. #512
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Feels no worse than Probe in a number of situations; seems like picking six out of ten for our first draw step may be better than picking seven out of seven. But maybe you're right. That's why I was asking. I'll concede readily that the reason I'm interested in using it in All Spells is that the deck needs better consistency and protection, which the card appears to facilitate.
    Might be true for All Spells more than Belcher.

    Belcher wants to cast Empty/Belcher turn 1, before you draw those top cards.

    Belcher needs 5-6 cards to go off and cares about storm count. Being down a card makes a big difference (EtW for 8 gobs is jank; EtW for 12 vs EtW for 10 could be an extra turn for the opponent). Then what if you draw multiple Sphinxes? 2 Sphinx + 2 Land Grant = cringe. Terribad. You could have 5 free Vampiric Tutors after that and still lose. Your next draws just don't matter when the opener is that useless. All Spells has room for dead slots like Chancellor, so I assume you don't need as many cards to go off and have more room for Sphinx.

    Belcher's also more redundant. Each draw is roughly +1 mana. They all serve the same function. It doesn't really matter what the next one is, just that you have a critical mass to go off. Being short a card hurts more than being able to sometimes scry away extra Land Grants/Chrome Mox/wincons.

    I guess Probe was less good in All Spells. In Belcher it's free storm. The information helps too. With Burning Wish to fetch answers and the choice between EtW and Belcher sometimes, you can choose between multiple lines of play to work around hate if you know what's there. In All Spells you have no Wishboard and are always doing the same thing, so the information might be less of a big deal. Losing Probe hurt this deck. This thread's been dead since the ban. The Recross the Paths version I helped build is completely dead now, since it needed those free cantrips.
    Last edited by FTW; 01-24-2019 at 09:27 PM.

  13. #513
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Anyone trying Experimental Frenzy? I added one to the list, I initially cut a Seething Song but am not trying only 2 Empty. I've really liked seeing it in my opening hand, I've made 20+ goblins several times.

    Someone did 5-0 with Belcher recently and I've been having a good time with it on MTGO. I don't think the deck is completely dead yet, losing Probe did hurt a lot though.
    Last edited by escobert; 03-09-2019 at 09:14 AM.

  14. #514
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    might as well comment on this thread too:


    // 60 Maindeck
    // 16 Artifact
    4 Goblin Charbelcher
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Chrome Mox

    // 12 Creature
    4 Tinder Wall
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Simian Spirit Guide

    // 12 Instant
    4 Desperate Ritual
    4 Seething Song
    4 Manamorphose

    // 1 Land
    1 Taiga

    // 19 Sorcery
    4 Burning Wish
    4 Rite of Flame
    4 Land Grant
    3 Timetwister
    3 Empty the Warrens
    1 Gamble


    // 4 Sideboard
    // 4 Sorcery
    SB: 1 Gamble
    SB: 1 Timetwister
    SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
    SB: 1 Empty the Warrens


    where do we go from here? is there a way to finally commit to something less cannony after game 1? or does this just improve our win rate and we take it?
    -rob

  15. #515

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    The new Twister is an ok SB card but a bad MD card, the deck's problem isn't threats and if you're lucky enough to resolve LED/Twister the first time vs Island.dec then you're not going to be lucky the second time you give them a new 7. Just add more mana, Chancellor of the Tangle or Grim Monolith are the last of the playable accelerants that I can think of.

  16. #516
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    i disagree here. if you play belcher you need to play with a certain philosophy.

    the philosophy is: i don't care about FoW.

    opening hand pre echo: you can slam goblins/belcher turn 1, or you can die to FoW. you might be able to grind your way back, and that's fine too.
    opening hand post echo: you can slam goblins/belcher turn 1, or you can die to FoW. however, you also have more outs. if your opponent isn't playing FoW, your deck is strictly better, as now you have X more playable cards. if your opponent cannot counter with first hand, but could counter with second hand, it's possible that you have enough cards to jam through their counter, or you just hard cast an empty off the new 7.


    // 60 Maindeck
    // 14 Artifact
    3 Goblin Charbelcher
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    3 Chrome Mox

    // 12 Creature
    4 Tinder Wall
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Simian Spirit Guide

    // 12 Instant
    4 Desperate Ritual
    4 Seething Song
    4 Manamorphose

    // 1 Land
    1 Taiga

    // 21 Sorcery
    4 Burning Wish
    4 Rite of Flame
    4 Land Grant
    3 Timetwister
    3 Empty the Warrens
    3 Gamble


    // 15 Sideboard
    // 4 Creature
    SB: 4 Xantid Swarm

    // 2 Instant
    SB: 2 Autumn's Veil

    // 9 Sorcery
    SB: 1 Gamble
    SB: 1 Timetwister
    SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
    SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
    SB: 1 Grapeshot
    SB: 1 Telemin Performance
    SB: 1 Reverent Silence
    SB: 1 Shattering Spree
    SB: 1 Pyroclasm


    i was last at 4 belcher and 2 gamble (and 1 gamble sb). someone on the facebook thread suggested 0 belcher and 4 gamble. i still want to have at least 6 cards that kill on turn 1 without requiring any twisting.

    i'm still on the fence about 3 belcher, and might go back to 4 belcher 2 gamble.

    i haven't gotten a chance to play post board, but there's a good chance the autumn's veil in this version might be better than xantid swarm. it's probably unlikely though as xantid is insane and can give you free wins against show and tell.

    after about 50 goldfishes i don't think i've wished for gamble more than 1 time, it's probably better as a goblin war strike
    -rob

  17. #517

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Whatís the reasoning behind Gamble? Is there some interaction Iím missing or is it just to grab a combo piece and pray? Or is it Echo of Eternity 5 and 6?

  18. #518
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    It can find echo or led. (if searching for led, there is a chance you will hit it)
    -rob

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