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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

  1. #481

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by WarpWorld View Post
    I would play it along side Swarm instead of blast. It suffers from the same down side of costing one more on the combo turn but the up side it higher.
    I can support that. Especially with the banning of SDT, there are far less Counterbalances entering play that we need to blast.

    I always have trouble converting the Green mana for Veil or Swarm. You're dumping at least two cards from a critical mass deck into building some protection for the combo.

    How many turns do you 'generally' delay pulling the trigger if you're on the play in SB games with protection against counters? On the draw?

    Let's assume that your opponent is not also packing discard.


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  2. #482
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by AtticusBlaqk View Post
    I can support that. Especially with the banning of SDT, there are far less Counterbalances entering play that we need to blast.

    I always have trouble converting the Green mana for Veil or Swarm. You're dumping at least two cards from a critical mass deck into building some protection for the combo.

    How many turns do you 'generally' delay pulling the trigger if you're on the play in SB games with protection against counters? On the draw?

    Let's assume that your opponent is not also packing discard.


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    For reference this is the sideboard I have been playing with lately.

    Anti FOW 8
    4 Xantid Swarm
    2 Autumn's Veil
    2 Carpet of Flowers
    Won Cons 5
    1 Empty the Warren
    1 Infernal Tutor
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Diminishing Returns
    1 Goblin War Strike
    Answers 2
    1 Pyroclasm
    1 Hull Breach

    If they don't have discard and they kept a hand that has some form of interaction... I go for it and make them stop me because we can't control what we draw and it takes time to get my life total to zero. If I fail I can hopefully draw something that goes off again before I die. EtW blanks just FOW if we get lucky. Also with card #8 we can try to play through soft counters and resolve a win con. If not I depoly something to the board and wait a turn. Sometimes getting a belcher on the table turn 1 can win you the game on turn 4 when you finally draw the mana to activate it. Of course if I have hate I take that route. But no matter what I go for it early and often and don't be afraid to commit mana sources to the board if you are planning on waiting a few turns.

    On the mana thing. Green can at time feel hard to come by but we run "equal" numbers of green and red mana. That gets a little weird when most of our mana sources are either one time uses or chrome mox which gets stuck on one color unless you have manamorphose. Permanent mana sources are very important to our success in games two and three. Green being the most important in post board games.

  3. #483

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Disruption is more viable on the draw than on the play, if you don't have enough mana, and namely enough green mana, then you should cut Manamorphose for Chancellor of the Tangle to support your disruption. On the play, you should just use Chancellor of the Annex.

  4. #484
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Disruption is more viable on the draw than on the play, if you don't have enough mana, and namely enough green mana, then you should cut Manamorphose for Chancellor of the Tangle to support your disruption. On the play, you should just use Chancellor of the Annex.
    I agree that it is easier to play disruption on the draw than on the play. I don't like cutting manamorphose for Chancellor of the tangle is the way to go if you are looking for extra green. It's feels too narrow because it is dead past your opening hand. I would rather max out on chrome mox if green is really hard to come by. I have even gone as far as sideboarding a basic forest to support green in post board games to get around wasteland. Test different numbers and see what works best for you.

    I do like the idea of Chancellor of the Annex on the play even pre board but as AtticusBlaqk said we do need a critical mass of cards to go off so testing will tell. They do suffer from drawback of not functioning past your opening hand, and being terrible top decks.

    Speaking of other cards. I have been testing 3 Leyline of Sanctity in the board and have enjoyed them so far. They are obviously there for discard but have pulled weight in other Match ups like storm. They are cute but over rated in Match ups like burn. So I don't always board them in.

  5. #485

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Hey guys, I just started playing Belcher this month and have had 2 5-0's with the deck online.

    I've put up a 75% winrate and have been extremeley happy with my list. I would not change anything.

    4 Xantid Swarm + 1 Guttural Response or 2 Xantid/3 Guttural come in for some number of Chrome Mox/Pyretic Ritual/Manamorphose in sideboarding vs. blue decks.

    Basic Belcher principles of wanting Xantid vs. Flusterstorm and not vs. damage based removal decks. Haven't liked the Chrome Moxes vs. Kolaghan's Command or the Manamorphose vs. Leovold decks.

    I have been really happy with the Guttural Responses because you can cast them off of the basic Forest which I bring in against blue Wasteland decks and also off of Elvish Spirit Guide or a Tinder Wall imprinted on Chrome Mox.

    If anyone has any questions about the deck let me know!

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/728720#paper

  6. #486
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Has anyone tested Reforge the Soul in the maindeck? I don't like relying so heavily on goblins, and I think it could help enable Tendrils of Agony or lethal War Strikes if we draw a second Wish.

    The weaknesses of the card speak for themselves, but I'd be interested to hear whether anyone's tried it.

  7. #487

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by WarpWorld View Post
    I agree that it is easier to play disruption on the draw than on the play. I don't like cutting manamorphose for Chancellor of the tangle is the way to go if you are looking for extra green. It's feels too narrow because it is dead past your opening hand. I would rather max out on chrome mox if green is really hard to come by. I have even gone as far as sideboarding a basic forest to support green in post board games to get around wasteland. Test different numbers and see what works best for you.

    I do like the idea of Chancellor of the Annex on the play even pre board but as AtticusBlaqk said we do need a critical mass of cards to go off so testing will tell. They do suffer from drawback of not functioning past your opening hand, and being terrible top decks.

    Speaking of other cards. I have been testing 3 Leyline of Sanctity in the board and have enjoyed them so far. They are obviously there for discard but have pulled weight in other Match ups like storm. They are cute but over rated in Match ups like burn. So I don't always board them in.
    You should be using 4 Chrome Mox regardless, Chancellor of the Tangle is A LOT better than Manamorphose as Belcher is not a deck that needs color filtering as much as a initial mana sources and the fact that Chancellor of the Tangle is worthless after the first turn isn't that significant in a combo deck that doesn't plan to see another turn if possible.

  8. #488
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by CyrusCG View Post
    Hey guys, I just started playing Belcher this month and have had 2 5-0's with the deck online.

    I've put up a 75% winrate and have been extremeley happy with my list. I would not change anything.

    4 Xantid Swarm + 1 Guttural Response or 2 Xantid/3 Guttural come in for some number of Chrome Mox/Pyretic Ritual/Manamorphose in sideboarding vs. blue decks.

    Basic Belcher principles of wanting Xantid vs. Flusterstorm and not vs. damage based removal decks. Haven't liked the Chrome Moxes vs. Kolaghan's Command or the Manamorphose vs. Leovold decks.

    I have been really happy with the Guttural Responses because you can cast them off of the basic Forest which I bring in against blue Wasteland decks and also off of Elvish Spirit Guide or a Tinder Wall imprinted on Chrome Mox.

    If anyone has any questions about the deck let me know!

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/728720#paper
    Congrats. Keep it up. How has the 2 wheel effects been for you? I had that split for along time and liked it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Has anyone tested Reforge the Soul in the maindeck? I don't like relying so heavily on goblins, and I think it could help enable Tendrils of Agony or lethal War Strikes if we draw a second Wish.

    The weaknesses of the card speak for themselves, but I'd be interested to hear whether anyone's tried it.
    Yes people were playing around with it when it was first printed. It wasn't as good as people wanted it to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    You should be using 4 Chrome Mox regardless, Chancellor of the Tangle is A LOT better than Manamorphose as Belcher is not a deck that needs color filtering as much as a initial mana sources and the fact that Chancellor of the Tangle is worthless after the first turn isn't that significant in a combo deck that doesn't plan to see another turn if possible.
    I don't think Chrome Mox needs to be a 4 of in this deck I have been on 2 for a long time haven't missed them. Although I could see an argument for 3. But I have been playing around with a lot of different builds lately. Chancellor of the Tangle is best game 1 but his weakness I have found is in hands with Xantid Swarm were we want to wait and go off. Yes he casts swarm but he takes up space in your hand on turn 2 without a Chrome Mox to imprint(yes I have tested 4/4). Manamorphose sometimes fixes our green mana but sometimes it also fixes blue and black when we don't have an led handy when wishing but most of the time it is a free spell and cycler. I don't think that you should be considering mystery cards when make keep or mull decisions because we have no control of the top of our deck sans mirri's guile. Can you share your list?

    I am glad that this thread is seeing active discussion.

  9. #489

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by CyrusCG View Post
    Hey guys, I just started playing Belcher this month and have had 2 5-0's with the deck online.

    I've put up a 75% winrate and have been extremeley happy with my list. I would not change anything.

    4 Xantid Swarm + 1 Guttural Response or 2 Xantid/3 Guttural come in for some number of Chrome Mox/Pyretic Ritual/Manamorphose in sideboarding vs. blue decks.

    Basic Belcher principles of wanting Xantid vs. Flusterstorm and not vs. damage based removal decks. Haven't liked the Chrome Moxes vs. Kolaghan's Command or the Manamorphose vs. Leovold decks.

    I have been really happy with the Guttural Responses because you can cast them off of the basic Forest which I bring in against blue Wasteland decks and also off of Elvish Spirit Guide or a Tinder Wall imprinted on Chrome Mox.

    If anyone has any questions about the deck let me know!

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/728720#paper
    Hi, why you play 2 empty main deck? 3 is no good?

  10. #490
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by caprino View Post
    Hi, why you play 2 empty main deck? 3 is no good?
    I'm not the guy you were talking to, but there's a .pdf from several years ago in which someone ran the numbers on how best to get an opening hand with one piece of business and the mana to use it. The person/people in question came to the conclusion that lists with ten pieces of business (4x Charbs, 4x Burning Wish, 2x Empty) were statistically slightly more likely to give those hands than lists with eleven.

    That's not to say that it's universally a better setup; I think having a second piece of business is usually better than having redundant mana in case we hit discard and countermagic, and my experience has suggested that it's important. With that said, I can see merit to both sides of the argument (optimal T1 hands versus resilience). The difference was, IIRC, pretty small—like 1–3%. I might still have that .pdf lying around, though I'm not sure I'm allowed to share it here. I'd do some Googling for it because they did a pretty comprehensive job, though as a humanities guy, I can't say whether their math was correct. I found it a valuable read.

  11. #491
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    [QUOTE I might still have that .pdf lying around, though I'm not sure I'm allowed to share it here. I'd do some Googling for it because they did a pretty comprehensive job, though as a humanities guy, I can't say whether their math was correct. I found it a valuable read.[/QUOTE]

    I am quite certain that you can post it here!

    Indeed, there is no court order issuing a publication ban on this particular material, nor is there a sealing Order. Therefore, if you adduce a significant piece of information that buttresses and bolsters your argument/ position on a significant and material issue pertaining to this or any other deck for that matter, than it would be prudent strategy for you to post it here and prove its existence, rather than ostensibly hiding behind something that may not even exist.
    To be the man, you gotta beat the man!

  12. #492
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    @Demonic_Attorney it is back on page 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trall View Post
    For those who haven't read it : My study about Belcher

    Always usefull to have maths behind our arguments :)

  13. #493

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by CyrusCG View Post
    Hey guys, I just started playing Belcher this month and have had 2 5-0's with the deck online.

    I've put up a 75% winrate and have been extremeley happy with my list. I would not change anything.

    4 Xantid Swarm + 1 Guttural Response or 2 Xantid/3 Guttural come in for some number of Chrome Mox/Pyretic Ritual/Manamorphose in sideboarding vs. blue decks.

    Basic Belcher principles of wanting Xantid vs. Flusterstorm and not vs. damage based removal decks. Haven't liked the Chrome Moxes vs. Kolaghan's Command or the Manamorphose vs. Leovold decks.

    I have been really happy with the Guttural Responses because you can cast them off of the basic Forest which I bring in against blue Wasteland decks and also off of Elvish Spirit Guide or a Tinder Wall imprinted on Chrome Mox.

    If anyone has any questions about the deck let me know!

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/728720#paper
    Vs blue deck you side 4 xantide 3 guttural 1 forest...side out which cards? Thanks

  14. #494
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Hey there folks,

    Now that we have lost Git Probe, how will we replace it? 4x Street Wraith? I'm not really sold on that (no storm count, useless color to be imprinted on Chrome Mox, is misleading in opening hands), but I don't really like any other option.

    Thoughts?
    Colorless is the new blue
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  15. #495
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Go to the first page of this thread and look at the decklists right before New Phyrexia was released. I don't think much has changed.

    Frankly, putting Street Wraith in your deck is a mistake. I've argued against Probe in this deck multiple times, and Wraith is so much worse than that. You play Belcher to constrict the game so much that opening hand and Turn 1 are the only decisions to be made in the game. Playing Street Wraith is deciding to obscure information from what could be the only decision you make all game ("Do I keep this hand?") for the sake of thinning your deck to improve your draws in a deck that is hoping to win without seeing any more extra cards from the top of the deck. That's like playing Wrath of God in your Delver deck because you want to be prepared for if you fall behind. At least Probe contributed to your Storm count, and chaining Probes to make bigger Empty turns is the only positive thing I think the card had going for it.

  16. #496

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by gRR!! View Post
    Hey there folks,

    Now that we have lost Git Probe, how will we replace it? 4x Street Wraith? I'm not really sold on that (no storm count, useless color to be imprinted on Chrome Mox, is misleading in opening hands), but I don't really like any other option.

    Thoughts?
    I think - 4 gitaxian and play 4 manamorphose /pyretic ritual

  17. #497

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by caprino View Post
    I think - 4 gitaxian and play 4 manamorphose /pyretic ritual
    The one question I have is whether you want Manamorphose in the deck. One the one hand it boosts storm count and fixes your colors. On the other hand it suffers even worse from the topdeck problem than Wraith and Probe did. The only replacement that I came up that wasn't terrible was Grim Monolith, which is one of the few fast mana accelerants left, but can give you bad color problems. It does let you "bank" mana produced from lands and moxen for postboard battles, but is vulnerable to artifact destruction doing so. On the whole I think you probably play the 1 Taiga, 20 IMS, 11 Win conditions, 8 1 mana ritual 8 2 mana ritual, 4 Song, 4 Manamorphose 4 LED list. When you're sideboarding you can cut manamorphose first anyway.

  18. #498

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    The one question I have is whether you want Manamorphose in the deck. One the one hand it boosts storm count and fixes your colors. On the other hand it suffers even worse from the topdeck problem than Wraith and Probe did. The only replacement that I came up that wasn't terrible was Grim Monolith, which is one of the few fast mana accelerants left, but can give you bad color problems. It does let you "bank" mana produced from lands and moxen for postboard battles, but is vulnerable to artifact destruction doing so. On the whole I think you probably play the 1 Taiga, 20 IMS, 11 Win conditions, 8 1 mana ritual 8 2 mana ritual, 4 Song, 4 Manamorphose 4 LED list. When you're sideboarding you can cut manamorphose first anyway.
    I think post bann gitaxian is possible play 2 lands.
    This is my list in test

    1 taiga
    1 forest
    4 land grant
    4 pyretic ritual
    4 desperate ritual
    4 seething song
    4 rite of flame
    4 manamorphose
    4 simian spirit
    4 elvish spirit
    4 tinder Wall
    4 Belcher
    4 led
    4 lotus petal
    4 Chrome mox
    4 burning wish
    3 empty

  19. #499
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Just search for pre probe lists. Maindeck forest is a bad idea. If you are going to play a 2nd land just make it another taiga.
    -rob

  20. #500

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    Just search for pre probe lists. Maindeck forest is a bad idea. If you are going to play a 2nd land just make it another taiga.
    Yea is good 2 taiga.

    Vs blu deck what do you think 3 reb and 3 swarm?

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