@Mindlash
I think in grindy matchups like games 2 and 3 against tempo you'll want chrome mox. You'll find permanent mana sources really useful which is why i also include a forest in the sideboard (so I can land grant for it without fear of wasteland and multiple land grands aren't dead over the course of the game either).
I'm not sure about the 2 vs 3 empty the warrens. I'm playing your list -2 pyretic ritual, +1 chrome mox +1 empty. Sideboard I think I would do -2 pyroblast +2 carpet of flowers. Again, permanent mana sources are good! Carpet being especially good because it will help shut off soft counters like spell pierce and daze. Don't forget it can be used the turn you play it (by going to second main phase!) Pyroblast will stop one counter (basically useless vs daze) while carpet basically stops everything but force of will. It will also help with mana for late burning wishes you draw, and color fixing to grab diminishing returns as you'll most likely side out manamorphose in g2 and g3.
I am unsure about siding in xantid swarm in against RUG and UWR as they keep bolts in. It's great against esperblade, show and tell and miracles though! What are your thoughts?
4 burning wish is somewhat necessary I think. Especially when they side in hate. Hull Breach is a card you could look at for the sideboard (I've killed a leyline and pithing needle with it...felt so good!)
This is probably true. Why do you think people play much more belcher than PSI?Originally Posted by Vacrix
Cruel bargain cost? 0.o
If you play b wish version, You HAVE TO play 4. Otherwise it's just a waste of design space. Tutoring artifact / enchant hate is very very powerful and having access to +2/+4 goblins for "free" is a must. Seriously, a good player will counter the "good" spell, depending of the card you have in hand and the mana floating.I am not sure about the win condition split. 4 Charbelchers are set for sure but what are the benefits of 4 wishes and 2 empties vs 3 of both. Empty the Warrens works better to battle counters though most lists I see go with 4 wishes. Is it because of more storm or better accessibility to the sideboard?
I am also not sure if 2 Chrome Mox is too low...but I don't know whatelse to cut.
Any opinions on these points?
Enjoy the weekend.
Greetings Chris
Chrome mox has to be beetween 2 and 3. I like 3 even if on game 1 it slows us a little. In attrition game (game 2&3 of after a fow) it's really good to have permanent mana sources as stated before !
Seriously, don't play 11 business spell (or may be in HEAVY discard meta when you want to top deck another one, 10 is statiscally enough).
For the PSI question, PSI fizzle more than BELCHER. If you want to play another glass canon deck, I guess Oops is the one to play after Belcher but I won't recommand any one to play PSI (nothing to do with the 30$ price tag from bargain)
I'm not pretty sure of this. Belcher has very good t1/2 hands but PSI has better win cond in my opinion...
Permanent mana sources are important...especially for Belcher activations and so on. I will try to cut another card for the 3rd mox. I thought about Seething Song...it has high mana cost und you die instantly most of the time it gets countered. On the other hand it has the strongest mana gain.
Carpet is a nice card. I have never played it in Belcher so far. Using it in ANT most of the time. They might be good against RUG Delver and the likes in Belcher too.
As of now I use swarms against decks who are not likely to keep their removal in or do not play removal at all. Sneak Show, Merfolk, High Tide and probably those you mentioned. Against RUG and other delver decks I use Pyroblasts.
I've cut Hull Breach for Infernal Tutor. I do not now how good it is as of now. I just used it once in the mirror to tutor for belcher and shoot him instantly...although it used up quite a good chunk of mana :D
I didn't want to cut Reverent Silence nor Shattering Spree because they can handle multiple artifacts/enchantments.
You have access to 6 goblin spells in either combination as I plan to play a combined 6 of them and a total of 10 wincons.
Most players counter your wish/belcher and/or try to prevent you from getting to 4 mana because countering empty is not that good ;)
You can just reach 4 mana by going from 3 to 4 with the help of spirit guides. But I agree that using 4 wishes makes more sense to get use of the wishboard (which is apart from empty, dim ret and tutor dead most of the time).
Ok so 3 Chrome Mox seems to be prefered. Any ideas what to cut for Manamorphose? -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Empty the Warrens, -1 Pyretic Ritual. So whats best to cut here so get in the whole playset?
Thanks for the answers and opinions so far.
Regards Chris
"I came into this world covered in someone else's blood and screaming, I'd like to leave it the same way."
I don't think there's anything significantly better than the 11th win condition that really warrants being played, also personally I hate Seething Song and Manamorphose and would never play them over Grim Monolith and Chancellor of the Tangle anymore because accelerants that are immune to Spell Pierce are underrated. I also think 4 Chrome Mox is just always better than 3, resolving Belcher doesn't assure you victory when Ancient Grudge and Krosan Grips are getting thrown around.
Agreed on manamorphose and seething song. They're annoying to have sometimes but I think manamorphose is necessary to build storm and to consistently get green mana to cast tinder wall. If manamorphose is to be cut, it would be harder to cast off-color spells from the SB (infernal tutor, diminishing returns).
I was currently thinking about more pyretic rituals instead of seething song. Currently I run a typical list (4 of everything, 3 chrome mox, 1 pyretic ritual).
If you notice, some SCG lists have cut gitaxian probe in the favor of pyretic ritual but I'm not sure if this is correct.
Seriously I'm asking if some of you have read my report I posted on last page.
You MUSN'T* play 4 chrome mox
You HAVE TO* play SS & Manamorphose
(* if you wan't to maximize turn 1 win / crazyness which is the main aim of any Belcher deck. If you disagrea, move on TES / ANT / DDFT)
For the SS, sure it stop us cold while getting countered. But that what the deck does. If you are against a field with 70%+ tempo, drop and take a nap. Belcher will lose SS or not... It's like "ok I have a deck that lose vs FOW, but I don't want to lose that hard" :D Just build a deck that is designed to do what it does : THE BEST ON TURN 1, nothing more nothing less ! We don't have silence / duress to go through this. We have to respect the 40% likehood our opponent has a FOW on his oppening seven (with another blue card)
About the "trix" to go for ETW with 3 mana and Guide... Most of times you'll get 6/10 goblins dying to t1 drs followed by T2 anything (SFM ?). To be faily safe, we have to go for 12+ gobs on T1. Build without card listed before won't be able to achieve this goal ocnsitently and will die to FOW, and also to SFM / DRS & co.
And btw when you cast Diminishing R. It's almost always on a LED activation, not a manamoprhose taking UU >_<
About chancellor & monolith I have to admit I'm not sure about them since I didn't test. But seriously, I dont think having a green mana without storm is good enough [but it seems very fine with him + mox]. For the grim, the +1 mana is colorless... Why don't simply play P.Rit since it achieve the same goal ?
For the 11th business spell... Do the maths (or read my doc' if you don't want to). 9 should be enough. 10 is OK, 11 is too much... Unless again you play in a discard heavy meta ! You wan't 1 in oppening. Not 2 (wich is equal to a free mull to 6 since you won't play 99.99% of the time the 2 wincon you have in hand)
Ps : Sneak & show side in pyroclasm to take care of our gob's... And it'll also shoot x.swarm
Belcher is just a deck that functions on win conditions and mana and it doesn't really need Manamorphose to build storm or filter colors for Tinder Wall - I already play Pyretic Ritual because Gitaxian Probe was always garbage. Chrome Mox is really important if you want to activate Belcher on your following turn, there are plenty of decks that will just kill you or blow up your Belcher if you think you can just resolve it and wait around until you have the mana in hand.
How can you say Probe is garbage ?I already play Pyretic Ritual because Gitaxian Probe was always garbage
Free storm, free info (= you know you can go for the win or know HOW TO BAIT without losing that much ressources...) Free stuff on PIF plan, Yeah garbage. (The only drawback = you can't know the card you'll draw of it :( )
Tell me what's the avg storm count you have with 0 probe & 0 manamorphse ? 4.X ?
Belcher = 40% on wincon (assuming 4/10)
ETW = 60%. Most of time you'll win with goblins. My bet is winning with 12.5 on avg is easier than winning with 8.5. I may be wrong...
How does DRS do anything besides block one per turn?
What is the value of free information for a linear combo deck compared to free mana for a linear combo deck? You should already know how to bait counters without losing as much resources as possible because you should already take into consiteration counters like Daze and Spell Pierce etc. This isn't Storm, the efficacy of Empty the Warrens decreases dramatically with every passing turn so playing around counters by passing turns is ultimately self defeating.How can you say Probe is garbage ?
Free storm, free info (= you know you can go for the win or know HOW TO BAIT without losing that much ressources...) Free stuff on PIF plan, Yeah garbage. (The only drawback = you can't know the card you'll draw of it :( )
Tell me what's the avg storm count you have with 0 probe & 0 manamorphse ? 4.X ?
Belcher = 40% on wincon (assuming 4/10)
ETW = 60%. Most of time you'll win with goblins. My bet is winning with 12.5 on avg is easier than winning with 8.5. I may be wrong...
I really don't care what % of Storm Gitaxian Probe or Manamorphose add because I can't properly evaluate an X -1 card hand when I draw or mulligan into them, the deck used to kill people just fine without the added storm count and it still does kill people just fine without the added storm count as it's quite rare for it to be any less than 5. Those cards are completely unnecessary.
Blocking one per turn when you have 8 or less gob's might result into an extra turn clock. And eating tinder wall can put you in trouble when they are buying time to dig into SFM / Bskull or jitte or...How does DRS do anything besides block one per turn?
While I have to agree with you (since you are 100% correct), the mana fixing from manamorphose is really helpfull. Infernal tutor might be a +, but fixing for tinder wall is really good. I dislike the fact that some times you spend 2 mana and draw like shit (ex : another kill) but hey, that's why you play 10 business spells. Once on have 1 in hand, you are less likely to draw another one.What is the value of free information for a linear combo deck compared to free mana for a linear combo deck? You should already know how to bait counters without losing as much resources as possible because you should already take into consiteration counters like Daze and Spell Pierce etc. This isn't Storm, the efficacy of Empty the Warrens decreases dramatically with every passing turn so playing around counters by passing turns is ultimately self defeating.
And the "free" storm count really matters when people tend to play high quality blockers these days...
Oh and I may forgot, but manamorphose under chrome mox (very rare but happens) = really good at starting hand with either a rit or a tinder wall. If only we had a spell like R ad RR to your pool, it'll be different... But we only have a set of RoF
Feel free to test, feel free to goldfish. I have done millions hands and I'm faily sure about what I say
Let me ask: In your millions of hands did you pay attention to these two things?
How many times have you kept a hand because you banked on Probe/Manamorphose turning into a certain type of card?
How many times have you mulliganned a hand because you had too many wild cards in your opener and you couldn't properly evaluate what your hand could do?
I find it strange that you think the purpose of playing the deck is to maximize the turn one win while also somehow thinking it makes sense to build the deck in such a way to allow yourself to lose even a single game because you couldn't properly evaluate what your opening hand could do on turn one. While you dislike that sometimes you "draw like shit," I find it downright unacceptable, so I don't put the cards in my deck that allow it to happen.
While I'm keeping probe, I'm for sure cutting manamorphose. After playing the deck for a while I've decided that I absolutely hate this card. Having to topdeck seething song late game is bad enough without this garbage. After testing with pyretic rituals in its place, I'm never looking back. I'm playing 4 chrome mox at the moment, not sure what to add if I cut one but I find the extra permanent mana source game 2/3 to be quite helpful.
Oh and carpet of flowers is insane against tempo. It makes casting diminishing returns so much easier. I'll consider playing past in flames as well for this reason. My maindeck is 4 of everything, 3 empty as usual. My sb is the following:
Burning wish targets:
1 Hull Breach
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reverent Silence
1 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in flames
1 Diminishing Returns
Blue Sb:
3 Xantid Swarm
2 pyroblast
2 Carpet of flowers
1 forest
Have you read my paper ? Cause in the "shitty hand", this case appear. And after testing without manamorphse I can tell you that you musn't take em of. I mean there is nothing better happening while decreasing the AVG of gob's...Let me ask: In your millions of hands did you pay attention to these two things?
How many times have you kept a hand because you banked on Probe/Manamorphose turning into a certain type of card?
How many times have you mulliganned a hand because you had too many wild cards in your opener and you couldn't properly evaluate what your hand could do?
About the number of "wild card". On average you'll have 1 per hand. In this case there is not a lot of "information loss" while keeping 6 + probe vs 7 (even if there is 1 card hidden for sure !)
About my algo,it is plain simple : no business spells = mulligan. If I have one I keep and play (most of time I do smth, sometimes I don't). In real life, you'll wait a turn or 2 but that's not what I'm testing.
Seriously, all spells exept 10 (and multiple LG) are +1 mana source. Casting probe will get you a MS in 44/53 % of case (assuming you have 1 business spell in hand). If you have a chrome mox, the 2nd BP will go under it so what are you affrais of ? The 10% "bad draw" that may happend ?
Oh and even drawing a 2nd business spell does'n mean you fizzle... 4 MS + ETW + PROBE + what ever you want will still get you ETW, with 2 free gobs :)
Ps : On the info gained, you told me it's unnecessary since we can't ajust our play. That's not false, but don't forget good player will scoop vs 16 gobs without showing us anything. Knowing that they play RUG or w/e enable us to side accordingly. Don't underestimate free information, free storm at minimum cost (even if it has a cost :) )
@Blastoderm : I like your side, but I'll recommand you to always go for 4 * swarm. Exept vs RUG (they keep bolt) it's a "counter me spell or get ready to suffer" :)
Are other people on the SBing out Burning Wish and Lion's Eye Diamond plan post-board? The entire point of playing Chancellor of the Tangle, Pyretic Ritual and Grim Monolith is that you're cutting 7 cards from your deck, 7 considering your SBing in the 4th Empty the Warrens, in order to play 7 blasts on the draw and have a chance in hell vs blue. Otherwise on the play you're SBing in Chancellor of the Annex on the play and Force Spiking them. Xantid Swarm is kind of self defeating, you can't afford to wait a turn vs anything playing Batterskull.
All I know is that you die to turn 2 stoneforge on the draw if you have 12 goblins or less. You beat turn two stoneforge with 14 goblins if they don't play another creature. The issue with waiting a turn could be present with blasts as well if you're short on mana. I'll give it a try though.
So I don't side in swarms at all vs RUG/UWR?
We had a small legacy (4 rounder) tournament last weekend.
My matches were as follows:
Jund 2-0
Mavs 2-0
Junk 2-1
UB Reanimator 2-1
The other decks that were there: elves, ub reanimator, two mono R goblins, mono B sui and sneaky show.
This coming March two is our scheduled monthly big legacy tournament at Kick Engine's hobby shop in Cubao QC.
Im expecting a meta of sneaky show, miracle, BUG and URW-TNN.
Is belcher a good choice?
TJB
http://deartiyopaeng.blogspot.com/ <---- (updated) MTG related blog. ^_^
TES: 102nd out of 2000 players at GP Kyoto 2015 (Legacy)
UR Storm: 37th of 950 players at GP Guangzhou 2016 (Modern)
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote