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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

  1. #301
    jungle lion, good?...
    paeng4983's Avatar
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by dissy View Post
    Do you have a decklist of your deck?
    I want to play at my local legacy sunday.

    Thx in advance
    Here

    1 Taiga

    4 Tinder Wall
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Street Wraith

    3 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Goblin Charbelcher
    4 Chrome Mox

    4 Manamorphose
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Rite of Flame
    4 Land Grant
    4 Desperate Ritual
    4 Empty the Warrens
    4 Pyretic Ritual


    SB
    just sleeve up 15 random cards and side-in cards like you're actually putting in some SB cards.
    ^_^
    enjoy
    enjoy
    Last edited by paeng4983; 09-27-2014 at 10:57 PM.
    TJB

    http://deartiyopaeng.blogspot.com/ <---- (updated) MTG related blog. ^_^

    TES: 102nd out of 2000 players at GP Kyoto 2015 (Legacy)

    UR Storm: 37th of 950 players at GP Guangzhou 2016 (Modern)

  2. #302
    jungle lion, good?...
    paeng4983's Avatar
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    27 Sept 2014
    I just got home from an 18man legacy tourney.
    High tide, sneak & show, doomsday, UR delver and reanimator players were there too. This is going to be a good day for belcher.
    We had it 4 rounds and here were my MUs.
    Oops all spell 2-0
    Goblins rw 2-1
    Bw control 2-0
    Zoo ID

    Until next time.
    TJB

    http://deartiyopaeng.blogspot.com/ <---- (updated) MTG related blog. ^_^

    TES: 102nd out of 2000 players at GP Kyoto 2015 (Legacy)

    UR Storm: 37th of 950 players at GP Guangzhou 2016 (Modern)

  3. #303

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by paeng4983 View Post
    27 Sept 2014
    I just got home from an 18man legacy tourney.
    High tide, sneak & show, doomsday, UR delver and reanimator players were there too. This is going to be a good day for belcher.
    We had it 4 rounds and here were my MUs.
    Oops all spell 2-0
    Goblins rw 2-1
    Bw control 2-0
    Zoo ID

    Until next time.
    Nice seems u got nice matchups:)
    I played at a local 18 man legacy as well i got these matchups
    RUG Delver
    Patriot
    Lands
    Infect

    lost all;) were so dependant on our matchups so i think iam gonna drop the deck again. No chance against counter decks.
    and over 75% of our meta is blue;)

  4. #304
    jungle lion, good?...
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    I joined a 25man with cut to top8 legacy tournament the other day with this deck.
    My MUs were:

    Miracles 2-0
    Sneaky Show 1-2
    Dredge 2-1
    Patriot 2-0
    Omnitell ID

    landed 5th after swiss.

    top8
    merfolk 1-2

    After quarters, I seeded 8th.
    Taking home an Ons Bloodstained Mire.

    I'll be writing a brief tourney report about my belcher experiences since July.
    I'll post the link here as soon as the site admin for that page posts it.

    Cheers fellow belchers!
    ^_^
    TJB

    http://deartiyopaeng.blogspot.com/ <---- (updated) MTG related blog. ^_^

    TES: 102nd out of 2000 players at GP Kyoto 2015 (Legacy)

    UR Storm: 37th of 950 players at GP Guangzhou 2016 (Modern)

  5. #305
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    ..And on the offbeat side of things; Treasure Cruise suddenly allows the Paths version to omit playing any draw-3 maindecked whatsoever. Just chain a bunch of cantrips to fill the yard, Burning Wish as a 1RU Draw 3 and proceed to chain into Tendrils normally from there.

    It also means that Recross gets more playable as a sideboard card even in "traditional" Belcher builds, as 1x each of Recross, Cruise and Tendrils in the sideboard is a pretty low opportunity cost all things considered.
    Last edited by Infinitium; 10-06-2014 at 01:04 PM.

  6. #306

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinitium View Post
    ..And on the offbeat side of things; Treasure Cruise suddenly allows the Paths version to omit playing any draw-3 maindecked whatsoever. Just chain a bunch of cantrips to fill the yard, Burning Wish as a 1RU Draw 3 and proceed to chain into Tendrils normally from there.
    This is one option; like you say, if you have 3 mana and a cantrip post-recross, you can now win without having mediate in your deck and play a Chancellor of the Tangle or something else instead.

    make this stack:

    [Top]
    Manamorphose
    Burning wish -> Cruise
    LED
    LED
    Cantrip
    Wish -> Tendrils

    You can add more 0-mana cantrips before the treasure cruise to feed delve and build your storm count

    Another alternative for the same situation

    [Top]
    Manamorphose
    Wish -> Cruise
    LED
    LED
    Cantrip
    Wish -> Infernal Contract
    LED
    LED
    X
    Cantrip
    Charbelcher

    What you can do instead though is cut the mediate from the main and play a treasure cruise in that slot.

    Previously to win with RTP (if I understand the deck correctly) you needed either
    1 cantrip and 3 mana
    2 cantrips and 0 mana
    1 cantrip and 2 mana if you are playing Night's Whisper or Dangerous Wager or a similar card

    With Ancestral Recall in your maindeck you can now win with only 1 cantrip and 1 mana!

    [Top]
    X Probe/Wraith for delve food / storm count
    Cruise
    LED
    LED
    Cantrip
    Wish - > Tendrils

    Alternatively

    [Top]
    X Probe/Wraith for delve food
    Cruise
    LED
    LED
    Cantrip
    Wish -> Infernal Contract
    LED
    LED
    Cantrip
    X
    Charbelcher

    You can use Act on Impulse as a wish target instead of Contract with slightly modified piles if you're afraid of getting bolted or something.

    This seems like a pretty good switch to make as reducing the requirements to go off makes your deck more resilient to mulligans

    It does make you lose to Leyline of the Void but who plays that card anyway
    Another downside is that the 1 mana has to be blue so you need to either imprint a probe or use petal. But if you have 2+ mana and a cantrip you still win easily with R/G mana by putting manamorphose above cruise in the stacks so it seems like it's still an upgrade over meditate.

    It also means that Recross gets more playable as a sideboard card even in "traditional" Belcher builds, as 1x each of Recross, Cruise and Tendrils in the sideboard is a pretty low opportunity cost all things considered.
    I'm not so sure this works very well as to really take advantage of recross you need to have 0-mana cantrips in your deck, which a lot of people seem to not like doing. Say you're playing 4 probe in your 'normal belcher', what is the best thing you can do?

    stack:
    wish->cruise
    LED
    LED
    Probe
    Belcher

    For this to win you the game on the spot you need to make 5RRGU without LEDs and have a probe and a wish and put enough cards in the graveyard to make your cruise cost 1

    Going for tendrils instead of Charbelcher, or doing the Infernal Contract trick in the above piles only reduces this cost by 1

    Seems like a long shot but I guess there isn't really that much competition for sideboard slots

  7. #307
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    BW -> Recross is unlikely to win that very same turn, but stacking LED/Cantrip on top means it will always win within 2 turns at the very latest undisrupted. This is comparable in speed to EtW, and not susceptible to mass removal or blockers (stack in question being LED,Probe->BW->TC->LED,LED,Probe->Charbelcher; using the Taiga to provide R for BW).

  8. #308

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinitium View Post
    BW -> Recross is unlikely to win that very same turn, but stacking LED/Cantrip on top means it will always win within 2 turns at the latest undisrupted. This is comparable in speed to EtW, and not susceptible to mass removal or blockers.
    I guess if you're more worried about Pyroclasm than counterspells then yeah this is probably the best use for it

    The 4th card from meditate does give you some extra flexibility to play around hate which I didn't really consider in the above post

  9. #309
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinitium View Post
    ..And on the offbeat side of things; Treasure Cruise suddenly allows the Paths version to omit playing any draw-3 maindecked whatsoever. Just chain a bunch of cantrips to fill the yard, Burning Wish as a 1RU Draw 3 and proceed to chain into Tendrils normally from there.

    It also means that Recross gets more playable as a sideboard card even in "traditional" Belcher builds, as 1x each of Recross, Cruise and Tendrils in the sideboard is a pretty low opportunity cost all things considered.
    This is...way too interesting. Anyone care to share a sample list?
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  10. #310
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    You can fit it into pretty much any Belcher list running Burning Wish and at least 1 free cantrip (albeit RtP does generally get better the more cantrips you run; eg Street Wraith allows you to run Infernal Contract chains that can also remove hate permanents before killing). My current SB for reference:

    1 Recross the Paths
    1 Treasure Cruise
    1 Infernal Contract
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Empty the Warrens

    1 Reverent Silence
    1 Pyroclasm
    1 Flame Slash
    1 Shattering Spree
    1 Cabal Therapy
    1 Void Snare

    4 Carpet of Flowers

  11. #311

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    I'm sorry if this already has been asked, but I'd like to know if anybody tried out Pact of Negation ?
    Maybe it could at least protect the Belcher Combo (I know it doesn't work with EtW).

  12. #312

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinitium View Post
    You can fit it into pretty much any Belcher list running Burning Wish and at least 1 free cantrip (albeit RtP does generally get better the more cantrips you run; eg Street Wraith allows you to run Infernal Contract chains that can also remove hate permanents before killing). My current SB for reference:

    1 Recross the Paths
    1 Treasure Cruise
    1 Infernal Contract
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Empty the Warrens

    1 Reverent Silence
    1 Pyroclasm
    1 Flame Slash
    1 Shattering Spree
    1 Cabal Therapy
    1 Void Snare

    4 Carpet of Flowers

    Can you pull off the RTP combo very often? IT seems REALLY hard to pull off to me.

    Specifically it seems to me that you need at least 6 mana of three different colors (2 mana for burning wish, 3 for RTP, then 1 for Cruise)

    But you can't use LED to do it since you need to have a Cantrip in hand to dig for the Cruise so you can't crack LED when you burning wish for RTP.

    So basically you need to be able to generate 6 mana, including blue mana with a Cantrip and a burning wish in hand without using LED. That seems pretty tricky to pull off.

  13. #313

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    That was the point I raised but the counter argument is that you can wish for RTP cracking LED in response, cast RTP stacking LED and a cantrip and then go off in 2 draw steps

    Which gives you a similar clock to ETW and gives you the option to play around pyroclasm/EE

  14. #314
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    It's also one mana cheaper than BW->EtW, giving some extra playable hands against goldfish decks. Maybe I ought to explain my sideboard plan a bit more; basically it's intended to work with a 8-cantrip (2 Manamorphose, 2 Street Wraith, 4 Gitaxian Probe) maindeck running the classic kill suite of 4 Charbelcher, 4 Burning Wish and 3 Empty the Warrens MD. Pretty standard in other words. The G1 gameplan is classic Belcher, with the additional perk that any 5 mana + Burning Wish hand can also lead into the following sequence:

    [LED,GP->(...)->MM->BW(TC)->LED,LED,GP->BW(ToA)]

    [Cast Recross the Paths off Burning Wish stacking your deck so that you'll end up with LED and a Probe in hand/table (might take one or two draw steps unless you luck out). Then cast Probe cracking LED in response cycling however many cantrips you need to reach 7 cards in your graveyard. End the chain by casting Manamorphose to end up with RRU in your mana pool and Burning Wish in hand. Wish for Treasure Cruise, drawing 2 LED's and another Probe. Cast Probe, cracking the LEDs' for RRRBBB to draw another Wish for Tendrils of Agony. Win.]

    Chalice@1 or Ethersworn Canonist can (slowly) be dealt with using a [BW(TC)->LED,LED,SW->GC] setup wishing for a cruise for LED's and Street Wraith to draw into Charbelcher.

    Now, postboard is where things get interesting. If you anticipate the opponent bringing in permanent based hate (or stifle), side in the Treasure Cruise from the wishboard and prepare for for the mega-gosu wreck-your-shit-stack:

    [3 mana*,GP->(...)->TC->LED,LED,GP->BW(IC)->LED,LED,MM,GP->BW(**),BW(ToA)]

    [Cast Recross and chain some cantrips as per above, then cast TC with 2 mana remaining in pool. Draw and crack 2 extra LEDs casting Probe into another Wish for Infernal Contract. Draw the final 2 LEDs, Probe and Manamorphose. You should have 3 mana remaining. Cast Probe, then cast Manamorphose in response with the surplus mana, then crack the LEDs. You'll end up with two Wishes and 9 mana of assorted colors. Use the first Wish for either Void Snare, Reverent Silence or Cabal Therapy to either remove a permanent preventing you from winning or whatever funky tech your opponent has one hand (such as Stifle). Then Wish for Tendrils and win***.]

    *Requires additional 3 non-LED mana if going for Stifle/Void Snare, 2 if going for Reverent Silence unless you bring them MD from the wishboard.
    ** Your answer of choice
    ***Sequence of play will vary some depending on what cards you've drawn that game.

    Of course, apart from Leyline of Sanctity and Solitary Confinement there aren't a whole lot of permanents seeing competitive play that will prevent Tendrils but not the spell sequence up to it. Answering those and Stifle once in a blue moon is still good with the minor SB commitment though. Still a pretty good use of sideboard space all things considered imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by tl;dr current list:
    // Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

    // Lands
    1 [A] Taiga

    // Creatures
    4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
    4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 [IA] Tinder Wall
    2 [MMA] Street Wraith

    // Spells
    4 [MMA] Desperate Ritual
    4 [JU] Burning Wish
    4 [GPX] Chrome Mox
    4 [TE] Lotus Petal
    4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
    4 [CS] Rite of Flame
    4 [FNM] Gitaxian Probe
    4 [MM] Land Grant
    4 [M11] Pyretic Ritual
    2 [MMA] Manamorphose
    3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens

    // Sideboard
    SB: 1 [MOR] Recross the Paths
    SB: 1 [8E] Pyroclasm
    SB: 1 [MMA] Empty the Warrens
    SB: 1 [7E] Infernal Contract
    SB: 1 [FNM] Tendrils of Agony
    SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
    SB: 4 [US] Carpet of Flowers
    SB: 1 [DDK] Flame Slash
    SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
    SB: 1 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
    SB: 1 [M15] Void Snare
    SB: 1 [KTK] Treasure Cruise
    Last edited by Infinitium; 11-20-2014 at 11:24 AM.

  15. #315
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    How consistently can you use Recross the Paths? At first glance it seems like it's not something you can do all the time because you have a Taiga in your deck.

  16. #316

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Thank you for that detailed explanation. I understand it better now.I just bought the cards for this deck and I wanted to try it. I guess you go for the rctp kill if you randomly draw 5 mana, wish, led, and wraith/probe where you either draw the taiga or land grant for it. I would guess such hands occur what like 5 percent of the time? Probably a lot easier on the draw? I suppose it comes up as much as random goblin war strikes or what not?

    I had a couple ideas for exotic kills of my own.

    Living wish-storm entity: this would take up two sb slots. But would in theory come up when a swarm of goblins won't get there due to golgari charm or elecktrickery. Should in theory be able to fairly easily make a 8/8 or 9/9 hastey guy. Also enables bullets like containment priest or karakas.

    Tendrils of agony, infernal tutor- people seem to run these anyway. Was thinking of adding a second tendrils so post board I could run 1 main 1 board. This would enable a much easier tendrils kill. If you can hit 8 mana you can wish for infernal tutor, infernal tutor for the tendrils. This would come up against decks that can race the goblins such as elves.

    Living death- a random burning wish target that can wrath their board and kill them if you draw a freakish amount of street wraiths. Only for quad wraith lists. Useful perhaps against stone forge where you can't race the 'skull.

    Full on reanimator. The sb would look like: 1 empty the warrens (to enable traditional game plan) and then 4 elesh norn, 3 sphinx of the steel wind, 4 reanimate, 3 exhume. This plan is a little nuts and only works on the draw really. You board in everything except the etw and a single reanimate. Then you draw discard go discard a fatty and then turn 2 reanimate/exhume or wish for reanimate. The logic of this plan is the reanimator game plan can play around pierce/daze easily. Also many decks like delver have often 0 outs to elesh norn or sphinx of steel wind. Also you can go off turn 1 if you have the god hand of exhume, fattie, LED and can some how generate 1b. You board out like 3 etw, 4 belcher, 6 rituals/can trips. The wish for etw plan remains an option and you might randomly discard a fattie to an led activation only to randomly draw a reanimate. Also you might have to dedicate another sb slot to running a bayou- not sure on that.

    What do people think of these plans? Too cute?

  17. #317
    I'm so meta, even this acronym
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    With 5 effective Taigas in a 52 card deck you have a ~53% chance of seeing at least one in your opening 7. These odds increase to ~56% if you run the full 12 "free" cantrips. Multiply by the ~45/48% odds of seeing at least one Burning Wish (assuming 4) and you'd expect to see both together in roughly 23/27% of your opening hands after playing out the free spells on the play (available mana notwithstanding). Pretty often.

    It also enables BW as a credible topdecked win condition in games where your opponent mulliganed into FoW. How often this is relveant is hard to quantify however.

  18. #318

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Has anybody of you some sideboard advices for me on how to board against the most common decks?
    Also I'm not quite sure about the sideboard and if I got everything important in it.
    I think the 4x Xantid Swarm and 4x Pyroclast are Set due to the bad Matchup vs. every kind of blue FoW Decks.

    Btw, the list, a pretty stock one:

    4x Elvish Spirit Guide
    4x Simian Spirit Guide
    4x Tinder Wall

    4x Manamorphose
    4x Desperate Ritual
    4x Rite of Flame
    4x Seething Song
    4x Land Grant
    4x Gitaxian Probe
    4x Burning Wish
    3x Empty the Warrans

    4x Gobelin Charbelcher
    4x Lion's Eye Diamond
    4x Lotus Petal
    4x Chrome Mox

    1x Taiga

    SB:

    4x Xantid Swarm
    4x Pyroblast
    1x Empty the Warrans
    1x Pyroclasm
    1x Infernal Tutor
    1x Tendrils of Agony
    1x Hull Breach
    1x Shattering Spree
    1x Reverent Silence

  19. #319

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Hi,

    like a month ago i played Belcher on my locals with 34 participants and ended top 8. Since i play this deck the results were always arround X:2.

    @Lucipher2k,

    your SB looks good but I would add 2-3 Carpet of Flowers because blue deck must handle it quickly or they are in a bad shape. I would also play Goblin War Strike an Diminishing returns as Burning Wish Targets. Opening with Wish + Empty and winning Turn 2 is great and happens more often as you think.
    Recently i have more problems with discard than with counter because loosing dice roll with Belcher is just bad.

  20. #320
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    I just realized, this deck has fallen off the map since the printing of Khans, with the banning of Treasure Cruise, is anyone on this deck again?
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

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