Page 2 of 27 FirstFirst 12345612 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 527

Thread: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

  1. #21
    Member
    feline's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2011
    Location

    USA
    Posts

    586

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Thank you, I will note that right under the link to the previous thread. ^.^
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  2. #22

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by LeoCop 90 View Post
    For the most part I agree with replacing seething song and Gitaxian Probe ( the only cantrip I'm running) with Chancellor and Monolith. Especially the second is very good because it gives you 3 mana if you wait a turn.
    The only issue I find with chancellor is that 8 spirit guides + 4 chancellors main deck sometimes make my storm count too small. Don't you have this problem ?
    Not usually, I consistantly get 5 to 6 storm, and the consistency of the opening hands. As for chancellor being dead after turn 1, all we care about is the opening 7, the wish board is just a narrow contingency.

  3. #23

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    I'm not sure if you included this in your primer, but I feel that you should include the strategies in this article to build a Belcher deck. It is incredibly good. Not only should you link it, you should include its strategies in your primer. I've played it several times and it is incredibly consistent with going off first turn. I hope this helps.

    Quote Originally Posted by oarsman View Post
    Here is a link to an article I wrote on analyzing the charbelcher maindeck, if anyone is interested. You do need to scroll down an inch to find the start. Sorry, we are still figuring things out over there.

    http://blog.mtgdeals.com/oarsman/reb...y-charbelcher/
    EDIT: Never mind, I just noticed Koby posted it on the first page. Sorry.
    On a side note, I am currently running a SB I feel that is really strong and complements the articles 60 very well. Here it is:

    4x Carpet of Flowers
    2x Sylvan Library
    3x Autumn's Veil
    1x Forest
    1x Empty the Warren
    1x Goblin War Strike
    1x Pyroclasm
    1x Reforge the Soul
    1x Reverent of Silence

    Forest comes in VS tempo decks and LD (usually non blue decks with wasteland as well). Sylvan Library, Carpet of Flowers and Autumn's Veil comes in for Seething Songs and cantrips in the blue match up. The deck has been really consistent so far and the SB cards are always in my opening hand. The sylvan library has been really great against blue decks and discard decks as well.

  4. #24
    Member
    feline's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2011
    Location

    USA
    Posts

    586

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    I included that article in the primer post on the "links related to belcher & legacy" section, I had no idea Lossett even did a belcher article, was surprised. ^.^
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  5. #25

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by feline View Post
    I included that article in the primer post on the "links related to belcher & legacy" section, I had no idea Lossett even did a belcher article, was surprised. ^.^
    It's mind blowing how good it is to raise consistency. With previous iterations, I sometimes got stuck without a win-con in my hand or too many. After making the adjustments mentioned in the article, this has not been a problem. A few times when I did have more than one win con in my hand, I managed to use both. The first being counter magic bait while the second being the true win con. It was brutal for the blue player. His Belcher philosophy in conjunction with my SB is the only Belcher deck I feel safe playing against blue decks. You should really try to incorporate what he says in the primer. I really do feel it deserves more than a link (you have a lot of links...)

  6. #26
    Member
    feline's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2011
    Location

    USA
    Posts

    586

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Oh I see what you're saying, I can go over that and add some stuff to the primer from it, give me a bit on it though, currently I am working on another project, but I can go over that sometime shortly.

    -edit- put an intro to the article in the 1st part of the primer & a second link to it.
    Last edited by feline; 03-26-2013 at 07:15 PM.
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  7. #27

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Chancellor of the annex, infernal tutor and sylvan library should be listed as side options, I have also seen multiple lists side in a basic for forest.

  8. #28

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by feline View Post
    Oh I see what you're saying, I can go over that and add some stuff to the primer from it, give me a bit on it though, currently I am working on another project, but I can go over that sometime shortly.

    -edit- put an intro to the article in the 1st part of the primer & a second link to it.
    Take your time. I'm not expert, so I don't want to give you my interpretation of it, but after reading the article, I can really feel the difference in terms of consistency and power with the article's main deck. I just feel that it's important that other people get that same feeling as well. Just the talk about the percentages and the reason for those win-cons are very compelling arguments for running that number of cantrips/win con/mana ratio.

  9. #29

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Though I understand the theory behind cantrips, I am jaded by them because they tend to screw me more than not, hence the list I have been working on that runs 0 cantrips.
    Last edited by Buckjunt; 04-13-2013 at 10:28 AM.

  10. #30
    Psilovibin
    Vacrix's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2008
    Posts

    2,203

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    It's mind blowing how good it is to raise consistency. With previous iterations, I sometimes got stuck without a win-con in my hand or too many. After making the adjustments mentioned in the article, this has not been a problem. A few times when I did have more than one win con in my hand, I managed to use both. The first being counter magic bait while the second being the true win con. It was brutal for the blue player. His Belcher philosophy in conjunction with my SB is the only Belcher deck I feel safe playing against blue decks. You should really try to incorporate what he says in the primer. I really do feel it deserves more than a link (you have a lot of links...)
    It is a good point he makes in the article.


    However, the SB is what has been holding back Belcher as a deck. Ironically, Belcher has 15 board slots that for some reason get treated like they could somehow 'protect' a glass house. Its still made of glass. You're still building a deck that one shots the opponent or doesn't. The sideboard, then, is the opportunity in a system deck like Belcher to play a similar strategy using the acceleration and fast mana to still do something powerful on the first turn, but not necessarily go for the throat early on. For example, Mirri's Guile/Carpet of Flowers/Xantid Swarm are powerful turn 1 plays. They allow you to set up against an opponent with permission, punish them for playing multiple Islands, and ultimately, push through your business spells. This strategy works far better in Spanish Inquisition where the business density compliments the sideboard plan. Still, the cards can be played in both decks. The question is, what is the proper configuration? Ultimately the most important point to make is that Belcher is a 'mouse trap' that punishes an aggro heavy metagame. The mouse trap is just about as good as it gets or we would know about it immediately. Reforge the Soul? Yeah.. meh. Its been tried, I've seen a few good variants of it. They weren't any better than TES. If you want to make this mouse trap better, start by looking at the mouse-trap traps; control decks. If you notice, the sideboard that jin has mentioned has been (in different variants) doing quite well lately compared to other Belcher builds. Granted, sometimes Belcher just wins outright because the mice came in droves. But its those other times Belcher needs to prepare for if it wants to establish itself again as a force of the format instead of being inferior to TES in the hands of a seasoned player. Right now Belcher is just a stepping stone to higher levels of storm combo.
    Luck is a residue of design.



    I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
    http://soundcloud.com/vacrix


    Expect me or die. I play SI.

  11. #31

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    It is a good point he makes in the article.


    However, the SB is what has been holding back Belcher as a deck. Ironically, Belcher has 15 board slots that for some reason get treated like they could somehow 'protect' a glass house. Its still made of glass. You're still building a deck that one shots the opponent or doesn't. The sideboard, then, is the opportunity in a system deck like Belcher to play a similar strategy using the acceleration and fast mana to still do something powerful on the first turn, but not necessarily go for the throat early on. For example, Mirri's Guile/Carpet of Flowers/Xantid Swarm are powerful turn 1 plays. They allow you to set up against an opponent with permission, punish them for playing multiple Islands, and ultimately, push through your business spells. This strategy works far better in Spanish Inquisition where the business density compliments the sideboard plan. Still, the cards can be played in both decks. The question is, what is the proper configuration? Ultimately the most important point to make is that Belcher is a 'mouse trap' that punishes an aggro heavy metagame. The mouse trap is just about as good as it gets or we would know about it immediately. Reforge the Soul? Yeah.. meh. Its been tried, I've seen a few good variants of it. They weren't any better than TES. If you want to make this mouse trap better, start by looking at the mouse-trap traps; control decks. If you notice, the sideboard that jin has mentioned has been (in different variants) doing quite well lately compared to other Belcher builds. Granted, sometimes Belcher just wins outright because the mice came in droves. But its those other times Belcher needs to prepare for if it wants to establish itself again as a force of the format instead of being inferior to TES in the hands of a seasoned player. Right now Belcher is just a stepping stone to higher levels of storm combo.
    Although this may be true, I find it difficult to compare Belcher to TES. TES is a very dynamic and powerful storm deck, that requires a seasoned player to know how to properly can-trip and shape their hand. It also requires the understanding of many interactions that are obviously missing from Charbelcher. That said, Belcher is not as streamline in its game plan as most people think. It does take skill to mulligan in Belcher and playing against blue post board is typically a nightmare TES pilots don't have to deal with.

    Of course, Belcher's weakness is also what defines its strength. Because it does not have the ability to use finesse like TES or to use its raw power like ANT, it overcomes these short comings by pure speed. This is an advantage especially in long tournaments where a run can take a full 12 hours. This can be very tiring for most players, but not Charbelcher players. Belcher players have the advantage of a fresh mind because of the sheer speed of the games.

    Some might find this argument not compelling, but take a look at DDFT. Doomsday is probably one of the most powerful cards in Legacy, but its not a deck to beat simply because it takes a PhD in Magic the Gather to pilot that deck to perfection, while simple beat down decks just get there due to simplicity. Charbelcher and ANT have this as its advantage over TES.

  12. #32

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    I have recently started testing a Land Grant in the side as a wish target. It was originally suppose to just be to test different numbers in the deck, since i seem to get multiple land grant/ land grant and taiga hands, i thought i would try to cut one. I later found, as i just put it in the side for the moment, that it not only stops me drawing multiples, but it also makes hands with only 5 mana and wish and warrens/wish and belcher from possible mulligans to keep-able, winning hands. I can now storm my 5 mana out, wish for land grant, and i have my 6th mana. of course this doesn't work for hands with taiga/land grant already, but it also allows me to up the storm count with 6 mana hands and wish/warrens.

  13. #33

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    I'm not sure if you included this in your primer, but I feel that you should include the strategies in this article to build a Belcher deck. It is incredibly good. Not only should you link it, you should include its strategies in your primer. I've played it several times and it is incredibly consistent with going off first turn. I hope this helps.



    EDIT: Never mind, I just noticed Koby posted it on the first page. Sorry.
    On a side note, I am currently running a SB I feel that is really strong and complements the articles 60 very well. Here it is:

    4x Carpet of Flowers
    2x Sylvan Library
    3x Autumn's Veil
    1x Forest
    1x Empty the Warren
    1x Goblin War Strike
    1x Pyroclasm
    1x Reforge the Soul
    1x Reverent of Silence

    Forest comes in VS tempo decks and LD (usually non blue decks with wasteland as well). Sylvan Library, Carpet of Flowers and Autumn's Veil comes in for Seething Songs and cantrips in the blue match up. The deck has been really consistent so far and the SB cards are always in my opening hand. The sylvan library has been really great against blue decks and discard decks as well.
    That article is suspect, Belcher is a deck that lives and dies by its mulligans, and anything that makes your mulligans more difficult to judge is rarely, if ever a good idea as opposed to the reliability of 100% win conditions and mana sources. Not to mention you would have to be mentally defficient to play 2 Empty the Warrens and 4 Burning Wish over 3 Empty the Warrens and 3 Burning Wish because the more mana efficient win condition should obviously receive priority over the less mana efficient win condition for mulliganing. Furthermore, playing less than 4 Chrome Mox may be ok for gold fishing, but it is not ok for actual games vs decks with spells because you need permanent mana sources on the board in order to recover from counter magic on your mana accelerants.

    Manamorphose is the worst possible card you could play in Belcher, as soon as you mulligan to 5 cards you'll understand why, because every time you cycle Manamorphose and brick you've lost 2 mana compared to cantripping Street Wraith (and Street Wraith still sucks).

    Short of the math, I really don't think that guy knows what he's talking about, the only real things you should consider is whether or not you want to play Chancellor of the Tangle or replace Seething Song with Grim Monolith.

  14. #34
    Member

    Join Date

    Jul 2010
    Location

    twitch.tv/oarsman79
    Posts

    229

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Final Fortune,
    of course you would play more of the mana efficient kill condition. Now you tell me, if you can make three mana and have an LED, would you rather have Burning Wish or Empty the Warrens?

    As for the Chrome Mox concept that almost nobody accepts, do you really need permanent mana to recover from counterspells? Really? How often would you say that you attempt to go off and get blown out by a counter, and then come back and win the game? Compare that to how often you wish your opening hand could produce one more mana. Decks with four Forces will draw one in their opener 40% of the time. If you win the other 60%, you are in great shape. That is a huge simplification, but sums up my reasoning for how the deck should be built for game one. The only way I would play a full set of Chrome Mox is if I was using Goblin Welder in the board (it doesn't really work, because your opponent will leave in Swords or Bolts on the chance that you have Xantid Swarm)

    Permanent mana is nice, which is why I would play AT LEAST one land in the board. I would also play both extra copies of Empty in the board, since boarding out the Wishes and LED's against blue decks seems like a solid plan to me, but I have not put any real practice into that.

    I agree that Street Wraith is better than Manamorphose, but it doesn't matter too much since you probably board it out either way. However Chancellor of the Tangle is terrible, as is Grim Monolith.


    And you spelled mentally deficient wrong.

  15. #35

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by oarsman View Post
    Final Fortune,
    of course you would play more of the mana efficient kill condition. Now you tell me, if you can make three mana and have an LED, would you rather have Burning Wish or Empty the Warrens?

    As for the Chrome Mox concept that almost nobody accepts, do you really need permanent mana to recover from counterspells? Really? How often would you say that you attempt to go off and get blown out by a counter, and then come back and win the game? Compare that to how often you wish your opening hand could produce one more mana. Decks with four Forces will draw one in their opener 40% of the time. If you win the other 60%, you are in great shape. That is a huge simplification, but sums up my reasoning for how the deck should be built for game one. The only way I would play a full set of Chrome Mox is if I was using Goblin Welder in the board (it doesn't really work, because your opponent will leave in Swords or Bolts on the chance that you have Xantid Swarm)

    Permanent mana is nice, which is why I would play AT LEAST one land in the board. I would also play both extra copies of Empty in the board, since boarding out the Wishes and LED's against blue decks seems like a solid plan to me, but I have not put any real practice into that.

    I agree that Street Wraith is better than Manamorphose, but it doesn't matter too much since you probably board it out either way. However Chancellor of the Tangle is terrible, as is Grim Monolith.


    And you spelled mentally deficient wrong.
    Lion's Eye Diamond doesn't make Burning Wish better than Empty the Warrens, it makes Burning Wish playable in a deck that would otherwise struggle to reach 6 mana consistently, if you actually play and mulligan with the deck instead of running Excel it's obvious you don't want to have to rely on a Lion's Eye Diamond to cast your win conditions over relatively interchangeable mana accelerants to reach 4 mana as opposed to 6. It's easier for the deck to cast Empty the Warrens with any combinations of mana accelerants than it is to cast Burning Wish and that issue compounds itself for every mulligan you're forced to take.

    Your second paragraph more or less confirms my suspcion that you don't have any significant play experience with this deck, because Belcher doesn't get blown out by counter magic the same way other Storm decks gets blown out by counter magic. The opponent can't allow you to resolve a Pyretic Ritual or any other mana accelerant that'd allow you to reach the 3 mana threshold because you're essentially threatening Spirit Guide -> Empty the Warrens. You'll often be left with a win condition in hand and a Chrome Mox on the board in order to attempt to go off again. If your opponent aggressively mulligans for Force of Will on the draw and either breaks even or only pulls slightly ahead in card advantage, you have a chance of being able to top deck a couple of mana sources and resolve a threat before they can cantrip into more counter magic.

    People who call Belcher a glass cannon are players who don't really have any experience with the deck beyond the first turn, and while it's more susceptible to counter magic than any other Storm variant it doesn't automatically lose the game once the opponent shows you a Force of Will unless he wants to risk letting an Empty the Warrens resolve.

    The other thing you're forgetting, or rather approximating in a gold fish setting, is that resolving a Charbelcher is not an immediately game winning play because you have to activate it. Other combo decks exist, fast aggro decks exist and Stifle exist, all of which require you to activate Belcher in a meaningful time from or subsequently die. Chrome Mox, being 4 of the 9 permanent mana sources in the deck, plays a fairly important role in activating Charbelcher. Furthermore it's not just a mana accelerant but it's an initial mana accelerant that color fixes, you can't just consider the value of every card's mana generation because casting spells is linear, if not having an intial mana accelerant in hand means you can't cast X card then the mana generation of that card is 0.

    You can't say "Manamorphose doesn't matter because you'll probably SB it out," MDing 4 cards that give you a liability while mulliganing game 1 are always going to matter, and you can't just SB them out after you've based your math and deck building on the virtual card efficiency provided by your cantrips otherwise you're playing a deck with a mathematically insufficient number of win conditions relative to a re-adjusted or non-existent virtual card efficiency post board.

    If you think Chancellor of the Tangle and Grim Monolith are terrible without reasoning then I'm speechless, Chancellor of the Tangle has either one of the highest or highest net mana generation in the deck because it generates G and imprints on Chrome Mox, a play that gives you an un-Dazeable Chrome Mox and an un-Spell Pierceable Land Grant all while enabling Xantid Swarm, go. It's a less flexible, albeit not strictly inferior version of Elvish Spirit Guide. Grim Monolith is terrible, but when you compare Grim Monolith to Seething Song in real play scenarios it's difficult to tell which is more terrible than the other. Because while Seething Song does generate more mana for Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens the problem is that its casting cost of 3 makes it virtually worthless after your opponent has countered your Pyretic Ritual, where you're able to rebuild faster with a Grim Monolith and its casting cost of 2 or by casting Grim Monolith off of a Chrome Mox and/or Taiga and passing the turn and reaching 4 mana on the following turn. Seething Song is also worthless while top decking for mana sources to activate Belcher, you'll get into race scenarios where you're facing a clock after you resolved your Charbelcher and you'll have to be able to draw accelerants you can cast to bait out Dazes etc. and activate Belcher before the opponent races you.

    In short, Excel is not a substitute for play experience and without play experience you can't necessarily interpret an Excel spread sheet, the deck doesn't automatically win when Belcher resolves and accelerants don't produce mana regardless of one another and experienced Belcher players don't automatically scoop as soon as you show them Force of Will.

    Chancellor of the Tangle is extremely good for what it is fwiw, I really don't know whether or not Seething Song > Grim Monolith or Grim Monolith > Seething Song but I think too many people have just arbitrarily dismissed the other mana accelerants for cantrips or think the current mana accelerants are better than the alternatives without either an Excel approach or actual playtesting. Put in time with the deck both by goldfishing by hand and by playing the deck vs aggro-control and you'll find that your interpretation of your Excel spread sheet and how the deck works is far from the truth.

  16. #36

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Other points on chancellor and monolith:

    Chancellor can be a win condition. There have been multiple games where I had no other win conditions, 7 mana and chancellor in hand. Game 1 this is a mulligan unless you know who/what you are facing, but game 2 or 3, not every opponent leaves xantids hate in, and a 6/7 vigilant beater will win you games, or at least be enough of a board presence to allow you to refuel. Also, if you run carpet of flowers, it is another threat in topdeck mode.

    Monolith can also make use of unused lion's eye diamonds by using that mana to untap monolith in topdeck mode, making it possible to cast another win-con off of usually unusable mana.

    Also, no thoughts on siding a land grant? It really does smooth things out, and it isn't an actual hard source like mox, though they often function similarly in the opening hand. Maybe its because I run chancellor, so I have more free initial mana sources, but it hasn't hurt me and only adds to the number of keepable hands, like Elvish Spirit Guide, lotus petal, elvish spirit guide, empty the warrens, burning wish, desperate ritual, simian spirit guide. Normally, you could either keep and hope for a good topdeck, cast empty the warrens for a tiny 6 goblin army, or mulligan. You can now keep and get ten tokens.
    Last edited by Buckjunt; 04-14-2013 at 11:00 AM.

  17. #37
    Member

    Join Date

    Mar 2012
    Location

    Northern PA
    Posts

    35

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Personally, I'm not sold on Chancellor. I understand the potential for one card=two mana is exactly what this deck wants, but I just haven't gotten around to playtesting it that much. On my list of things to try.

    Something I'm trying out right now is two Mirri's Guile in place of two Seething Song. I'm in a fairly heavy combo meta, and I tossed them in as a plan for mid to long game. So far, results have been positive. Hasn't lowered my percentage of Turn 1's, and proves useful in those lovely times when you have to mull down to five. Anyone else tried anything similar? I seem to remember Sylvan Library popping up in a few lists.
    I'm Phil. I play red.

    Worldslayer Count: 246. I need more.

    MTGO: WorldslayerGuy I mostly play Limited.

  18. #38
    Member
    feline's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2011
    Location

    USA
    Posts

    586

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Just based on the past successful lists alone, I don't think Chancellor is in any of them if I recall correctly.
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  19. #39
    Member

    Join Date

    Feb 2012
    Location

    Los Angeles
    Posts

    63

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    I found an old list I brewed up with a buddy a long time ago when Past in Flames first came out. It inspired me to make this new deck, something like Belcherless Belcher. So I figured this would be an appropriate place to debut it.

    Multiplayer Storm:

    4 tarn
    3 strand
    3 volcanic
    1 island
    1 mountain

    4 led
    4 petal
    4 chrome mox

    4 rite of flame
    4 desperate ritual
    3 seething song

    4 manamorphose
    4 gitaxian probe

    4 brainstorm
    4 ponder

    4 burning wish
    3 empty the warrens
    2 past in flames

    This is just a prototype, I have only played a couple real games with it so far. But I've been goldfishing it like crazy and it's super fun. The reason I call it multiplayer storm is because I goldfished t1 29 copies of tendrils, almost enough to kill 3 opponents.

    Obviously it's quite different than traditional belcher because it doesn't have belchers and it has lands and blue spells. It does however use much the belcher shell. It's probably quite a bit more difficult to pilot since you end up building some really huge storms and cantripping a billion times in a turn so there's a lot more decision making. You have less t1 kills, but you have a lot more resiliency and the ability to rebuild if your combo gets shut down. You still do get the t1 kills, too. Just not as often. It also gives you opportunities to play some mental magic if your opponent doesn't know your deck (and they probably won't). For example if you t1 them game 1 without showing them any land, they'll think your on pure belcher and wont be ready for what you really are. Or open with flooded strand go, and your opponent isn't expecting a giant army of goblins the next turn (as a note, most of the time your empties are much greater than 10 goblins).

    Anyway this is just an experiment, I wanted to share it and see if anyone has any feedback or see if anyone has tried something similar already.

  20. #40

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    No offense, but this looks like a bad TES/ANT deck. Taking out the flagship kill condition doesn't make sense? Especially if you're not exploiting black for accelerators or another kill condition, Tendrils of Agony. What advantages do you see in this deck over Belcher, or any other storm type deck?

    This doesn't look anything like Belcher to be included in this thread. When you started adding lands, you lost me.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)