[Primer/Deck] Belcher

[caprino]

I have a strange idea that I would like some of the more seasoned players to try out. The reason why I am asking others to try this instead of myself, is that I am not very popular with the others at my LGS. As a result of this, I don't have anyone to playtest this idea. I will try to get as much testing as possible, but the more people who can help me test, the better.

The idea is as follows:
Game 1, play "budget" Belcher. Why budget? We have a transitional sideboard, which transitions into Sneak Attack. This means that we have no Burning Wish gameplan, and we also do not want LED in the deck. I propose this decklist as a starting point:

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Street Wraith
4 Seething Song (normally Lion's Eye Diamond, but we normally use LED to activate Belcher, whereas we cannot use it to activate Sneak Attack)
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Manamorphose
4 Land Grant
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lotus Petal
3 Serum Powder (normally this is Chrome Mox, but because we want to look for possible t1 kill so opponent thinks we're playing Belcher, but then we sb into Sneak Attack and make them sb incorrectly.)
1 Taiga

SB:
4 Sneak Attack
3 Through the Breach
4 Worldspine Wurm
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (However, I think this should be a different creature, since we want to kill with either the swing, or the tokens that are left after. Worldspine leaves 15 power, while Emrakul does not kill the opponent. We "blow the payload" with Emrakul and then we're done. If we were always on the play, I would suggest Blightsteel Colossus, but if they play turn 1 creature, then we probably don't kill them.)

Sideboard transition:
Remove 15 cards, add 15 cards, to throw our opponents off and have them sideboard incorrectly against us. We side out Charbelcher and Empty the Warrens, but we need to figure out the other 7 cards to remove.


Any thoughts?

what are the 15 cards you take away?

[Ronald Deuce]

I have a strange idea that I would like some of the more seasoned players to try out.

The idea is as follows:
Game 1, play "budget" Belcher. Why budget? We have a transitional sideboard, which transitions into Sneak Attack. This means that we have no Burning Wish gameplan, and we also do not want LED in the deck.

[EDIT: Looks like I didn't read the card on Worldspine. Dumb stuff I wrote's been removed. Gotta stop posting at 2am...]

At first glance, I think pulling out the strongest combo-enabler for a gameplan that has no guarantee of sticking anything is a bad plan. It also doesn't feel "budget" to me.

Removing LED makes it much, much harder to hit the mana we need for Belcher, and removing Burning Wish reduces both our chances to combo and our flexibility. Removing both takes out the deck's primary avenue to victory, and though you're picking up the pace over Empty by swinging in one turn faster with a 15/15, you're not really making the deck more consistent, resilient, or hard-hitting; you're just doing something unexpected. That's fine, but you're also not solving any problems the deck has, especially if your opponent boarded in Pithing Needle or Stifle to stop Charbelcher. These work on Sneak Attack, too. Countermagic is still savage against us, especially without multiple Xantid Swarms, etc. And keeping LED in the deck is huge.

Because you can't get the kill off of Emrakul alone, you lose Sneak Attack's second-best payload. It's also worth pointing out that we don't have the cantrip power to find another creature (or any creatures if we don't have one in hand) if we can't close out the game with the first, which is what makes S&T decks so resilient and consistent.

With all that said, you might try leaving LED and Burning Wish for Tendrils in the deck and boarding in quad Griselbrand. This would let you swing for seven, draw 14-21 cards, and try to hit Burning Wish into Empty or Tendrils of Agony to seal the deal. Alternatively, an end-of-opponent's-turn Through the Breach can net you 14 cards, though Rite of Flame doesn't help here.

Still not sure that's better than just going for the goblins, though. The advantages of G-Brand Attack are that we wouldn't lose out on win conditions (still 10-11) or speed (possibly more likely turn-1 kill using G-brand into Tendrils for 14+), but there's a host of problems. We find ourselves vulnerable to removal. We can't run Swarms or Wish toolbox cards, and Griselbrand can fizzle after two activations. We throw stuff into the deck that we can't cast, and Worldspine is significantly less effective than Griselbrand, and hands with G-brand and LED can get pretty ugly without a lot of mana and an enabler.

You COULD try something like this using a traditional mainboard with LED, Wish, and gobbos:

OUT
-4 Goblin Charbelcher
-4 Manamorphose/Pyretic Ritual
-3 Gitaxian Probe
-2 Empty the Warrens
IN
+3 Sneak Attack
+3 Through the Breach
+4 Griselbrand
+2 Worldspine Wurm
REST of sideboard
1x Shattering Spree
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrils of Agony

[WarpWorld]

[EDIT: Looks like I didn't read the card on Worldspine. Dumb stuff I wrote's been removed. Gotta stop posting at 2am...]

At first glance, I think pulling out the strongest combo-enabler for a gameplan that has no guarantee of sticking anything is a bad plan. It also doesn't feel "budget" to me.

Removing LED makes it much, much harder to hit the mana we need for Belcher, and removing Burning Wish reduces both our chances to combo and our flexibility. Removing both takes out the deck's primary avenue to victory, and though you're picking up the pace over Empty by swinging in one turn faster with a 15/15, you're not really making the deck more consistent, resilient, or hard-hitting; you're just doing something unexpected. That's fine, but you're also not solving any problems the deck has, especially if your opponent boarded in Pithing Needle or Stifle to stop Charbelcher. These work on Sneak Attack, too. Countermagic is still savage against us, especially without multiple Xantid Swarms, etc. And keeping LED in the deck is huge.

Because you can't get the kill off of Emrakul alone, you lose Sneak Attack's second-best payload. It's also worth pointing out that we don't have the cantrip power to find another creature (or any creatures if we don't have one in hand) if we can't close out the game with the first, which is what makes S&T decks so resilient and consistent.

With all that said, you might try leaving LED and Burning Wish for Tendrils in the deck and boarding in quad Griselbrand. This would let you swing for seven, draw 14 cards, and try to hit Burning Wish into Empty or Tendrils of Agony to seal the deal. Alternatively, an end-of-opponent's-turn Through the Breach can net you 14 cards, though Rite of Flame doesn't help here.

Still not sure that's better than just going for the goblins, though. The advantages of G-Brand Attack are that we wouldn't lose out on win conditions (still 10-11) or speed (possibly more likely turn-1 kill using G-brand into Tendrils for 14+), but there's a host of problems. We find ourselves vulnerable to removal. We can't run Swarms or Wish toolbox cards, and Griselbrand can fizzle after two activations. We throw stuff into the deck that we can't cast, and Worldspine is significantly less effective than Griselbrand, and hands with G-brand and LED can get pretty ugly without a lot of mana and an enabler.

You COULD try something like this using a traditional mainboard with LED, Wish, and gobbos:

OUT
-4 Goblin Charbelcher
-4 Manamorphose/Pyretic Ritual
-3 Gitaxian Probe
-2 Empty the Warrens
IN
+3 Sneak Attack
+3 Through the Breach
+4 Griselbrand
+2 Worldspine Wurm
REST of sideboard
1x Shattering Spree
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrils of Agony

I like the idea of theory crafting with this deck as most people play mated out lists. I am not saying by any stretch that this is better than what we are already doing. I give you

Griselstorm
Land (1)
1 Bayou

Artifact (15)
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox

Creatures (15)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
3 Griselbrand

Instant (12)
4 Manamorphose
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

Sorcery (17)
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard (15)
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Sneak Attack

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike

2 Through the Breach
1 Show and Tell

1 Worldspine Worm
1 Griselbrand

The idea is to BW -> Show and Tell a Griselbrand into play and draw and storm off. In a dream world Griselbrand is actually cast able at 8 mana.

Happy hunting...

[SecondSunrise]

Belcher just made the finals of the BoM main event in Annecy. Rejoice!

Here's the decklist:

http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/en/ur...vent=18&evt=18

Notably, he's running 4 Pyretic Ritual and 0 Manamorphose. Is there any sort of calculation/reason behind that? Or is it just a preference thing? Has anybody ever run the numbers?

EDIT: Just read the comments on the last couple of pages, have to say I agree with the reasoning behind runnin more Rituals, even if the fixing might sometimes be important, especially with Chrome Mox / Tinder Wall / For the SB plan.

[Julian23]

Florian had never played Belcher before, so we stuck with the exact same list we independently got from several experienced Belcher and Combo players. Most notably Ben, the Shaman. Only thing is, we couldn't find a 4th Xantid Swarm on site, so he went with an additional blast. But he hardly ever used any sideboard cards anyways and just straight-up killed most people with turn1 Goblins.

From what I understand, there seems to be consensus that you really don't want Manamorphoses, especially because they make the "Three Golden rules of Belcher" even more awkward than Probe already does:
1) NO FEAR
2) If you have no win-condition, you mulligan
3) If you have 5 cards, you keep.

[Blastoderm]

Florian had never played Belcher before, so we stuck with the exact same list we independently got from several experienced Belcher and Combo players. Most notably Ben, the Shaman. Only thing is, we couldn't find a 4th Xantid Swarm on site, so he went with an additional blast. But he hardly ever used any sideboard cards anyways and just straight-up killed most people with turn1 Goblins.

From what I understand, there seems to be consensus that you really don't want Manamorphoses, especially because they make the "Three Golden rules of Belcher" even more awkward than Probe already does:
1) NO FEAR
2) If you have no win-condition, you mulligan
3) If you have 5 cards, you keep.

100% this. I cringe when I see belcher players keep a hand of 7 with no win condition...Manamorphose is also terrible.

[Brad the Impaler]

Just play probe, really.

For those who have forgotten : Study about Belcher

Still up to date I guess :)

Belcher just made the finals of the BoM main event in Annecy. Rejoice!

Here's the decklist:

http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/en/ur...vent=18&evt=18

Notably, he's running 4 Pyretic Ritual and 0 Manamorphose. Is there any sort of calculation/reason behind that? Or is it just a preference thing? Has anybody ever run the numbers?

EDIT: Just read the comments on the last couple of pages, have to say I agree with the reasoning behind runnin more Rituals, even if the fixing might sometimes be important, especially with Chrome Mox / Tinder Wall / For the SB plan.

Someone has in fact run the numbers.

I find it interesting that people are cutting Seething Song from the main. SS, LED and redundant RoF are the only cards that give you more than +1 mana. This means that you NEED either 1 Song, multiple Rites, or at least 1 LED and a belcher in your opener to activate immediately. I'm personally not sure how to manipulate the Hypergeometric Distribution well enough to figure out those probabilities, but you only have a 10% chance of opening a 7 with 1 Belcher, 1 LED and a pile of +1 accelerants.

So, if that or multiple Rites are your only paths to a turn 1 belch, your chances are pretty low. I think that's reflected pretty well in the above study, though it kind of helps me to think about it the way I've outlined. I know Song is a pretty sad card to top deck when you're trying to recover, but I just don't think I want to be in a spot where I've diminished my turn 1 belches that much (pre board).

[Ricardio]

I had to look it up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperg...c_distribution

[MasterBlaster]

I find it interesting that people are cutting Seething Song from the main. SS, LED and redundant RoF are the only cards that give you more than +1 mana.

There is also the scenario when you have 4 mana and 2 Desperate Rituals. Pay all 4 mana to play Desperate Ritual witht the 2nd Ritual spliced on. And then play the 2nd Desperate Ritual.

[Brad the Impaler]

There is also the scenario when you have 4 mana and 2 Desperate Rituals. Pay all 4 mana to play Desperate Ritual witht the 2nd Ritual spliced on. And then play the 2nd Desperate Ritual.

I totally forgot about. that, though it has come up for me before. I have to admit, I'd like to see the numbers on a 3 SS decklist vs. 4, because if the statistical difference is small enough, it might be worth the cut. But going down to 1 or 0 just seems like you're opening yourself up to a lot more instances of play Belcher, pass the turn, pray. That's not a place I love being.

[Final Fortune]

Manamorphose has never been a card Belcher should be playing, it's either just a bad card used by inexperienced players or "cute" if you are using it for stuff like Diminishing Returns or Tendrils of Agony out of the SB, it should just be thrown into that category of Gitaxian Probe, Street Wraith and Manamorphose of "I don't know how to mulligan" garbage.

Cutting Seething Song is arguable, it's more of a gold fish card because 3 mana is the point where Island.dec has to counter something or risk Empty the Warrens, so the more resources you put behind Seething Song the less able you are to rebuild after the counter. I probably SB it out more than any other card in the deck, so you could easily replace it with something like Grim Monolith.

[gngpostalsrvc]

I'm thinking of playing this deck at a local 1k and had some questions about some sideboard cards I've seen in recent lists. In what match ups do you side in / wish for Reanimate, Trash for Treasure, and Dragonlord Dromoka?

[Idionym]

Hello everyone!

I've recently decided to get back into Magic after being on break for about a year. I started playing in Alara block but never played Legacy, although I've always followed it.

I decided to get a Belcher deck because I like legacy over any other constructed, especially with standard being so trashy right now.

Anyways, this is my first legacy deck ever. I got it because I want to go the LED combo route, eventually building it into TES->ANT->doomsday/SI depending on what I'd like to do.

For now I just want to master this deck because the jump to TES is like $350 right now and that's kinda alot for me at the moment.

I read through most of the recent posts in the thread and had a few questions.

My mainboard is basically stock. No manamorphose or anything like that:

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
1 Taiga
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame

Right now, my SB is:

4 Xantid Swarm
3 Pyroblast
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Reanimate
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Reverent Silence

MTGO's meta is pretty U heavy, so with that in mind what should I be taking out/putting in? Carpet of flowers, for example, seems good. For the moment I feel like goblin war strike is the weakest part of the SB.

What would you all take out for the big matchups? (Miracles, Uxx Delver, ect.)

Thanks for any help! I look forward to talking with you guys in the coming months!

[ntropy]

Hey folks, I've been a Belcher aficionado for a while, and I just dusted it off to play in SCG Worcester.
I had a blast and went 6-3, no day 2, but oh well.
I thought I'd share my list.

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Tinder Wall
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chancellor of the Tangle
3 Chrome Mox
2 Seething Song
1 Taiga

4 Xantid Swarm
3 Sylvan Library
3 Hull Breach
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reverent Silence
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Empty The Warrens

I played against:
Eldrazi
Miracles
Jund
Death and Taxes
Sultai Delver
Enchantress
Burn
Infect
Mud

I lost to the blue decks.
The wish board might as well have been Sedge Trolls, but I liked the Swarms, the Libraries, and the Hull Breaches.

It seems like there's a lot of non blue decks around, and that's good for us!


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[caprino]

from the list of florian stange finished second at the bazaar how about putting 4 chancellor of annex in side?

[Ronald Deuce]

Anybody interested in testing the spoiled Aetherflux Reservoir? I'm wondering whether we'll be able to capitalize on it because we're already trying to go off quickly, so we can use our starting life total to help us get there. It's cheaper than a Belcher activation, but we've got to front-load spells to make it work, and it doesn't combo with Spirit Guides. So what do you guys think?

[mistercakes]

realistically how many spells do you need to cast during that turn to get to 50 life?

4th spell is this card (lets say), then 5 + 6+ 7 +8 (8 card hand all spells) 26 + 20 = still less than 50 and you have to have 51 life in order to try it. maybe fun in another deck, belcher is prob the correct one.

[Sohmxat]

4th spell is this card (lets say), then 5 + 6+ 7 +8 (8 card hand all spells) 26 + 20 = still less than 50 and you have to have 51 life in order to try it.

Wanted to interject, provided the 4 spells are instants, you can cast one of them, then in response to the trigger, cast the next one, respond to the trigger, cast the next one, etc. so you'd gain 8 + 8 + 8 + 8, which would be 32 + 20 = 52, so you'd have enough life to try it. Not saying it's good, but you can get more value out of it.

[AtticusBlaqk]

I took a break from Nic Fit to run some weekly legacy events with Belcher (honestly it was by mistake and I had just packed the wrong deckbox after work). My local meta is all but devoid of Delver and the Miracles players were on vacation or something. Over a 3 week period I was able to run back several 4-0, 3-0, 3-1, and 2-1s.

I have been playing a rather traditional list (committing the cardinal sin of running manamophose over the pyretic rituals). However, I've been interested in mixing it up a little bit and playing some of the belcher variants (2-land and no-land/Recross). Does anyone on here have any experience with the 2-land and Recross variants? Is 2-land viable without access to infernal tutors?


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[onemancannon]

I took a break from Nic Fit to run some weekly legacy events with Belcher (honestly it was by mistake and I had just packed the wrong deckbox after work). My local meta is all but devoid of Delver and the Miracles players were on vacation or something. Over a 3 week period I was able to run back several 4-0, 3-0, 3-1, and 2-1s.

I have been playing a rather traditional list (committing the cardinal sin of running manamophose over the pyretic rituals). However, I've been interested in mixing it up a little bit and playing some of the belcher variants (2-land and no-land/Recross). Does anyone on here have any experience with the 2-land and Recross variants? Is 2-land viable without access to infernal tutors?


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No and no.
I encourage you to try both 2-land and recross and find out for yourself but:

2-land was outclassed with the printing of red ramp spells. There's no reason to splash black for dark ritual or more than 1 Infernal tutor. It makes Tinder Wall awkward and forces you to MD 4 Manamorphose. AND I want to see your face when you flip the Bayou.

Recross was thrilling in the sense that you didn't have to hope that 10 goblins was good enough. In my experience, "pass the turn piles" from playing Doomsday are saddening. Burning Wish > crack LED > Recross the paths leaving you no cantrip in hand was a complete disaster for me. Creating five card piles in a competitive setting is difficult enough, nevermind stacking 40 to storm through a Gaddock Teeg.

The RG lists are superior by a large margin.