Adding black also makes things a lot less consistent. It's hard enough to split mana if we're choosing not to run Manamorphose (I'm not convinced it's worse than Pyretic Ritual), and I don't think we need the black Rituals.Originally Posted by onemancannon
A bigger problem is that you've telegraphed your punch completely. Anyone with anything resembling an answer absolutely will stop you if you "go off" and can't kill them. The only reasons Empty gets a pass are that it's the hardest "pass the turn" card for most decks to answer and it tends to savage decks that can make a lockout plan on turn 2-3.
One advantage to Recross was never failing to get lethal on a Charbelcher. Of course, it also opens you up to autoloss to decks like All Spells and manaless Dredge.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
Hi, i play list no manamorphose and 4 pyretic ritual and 4 Chrome mox main deck...my side Vs blu deck is 4 xantid swarm and 4 guttural response...help me side out Vs blu deck
I appreciate your detailed response. I don't know what happened but I missed the notification and this thread doesn't update very often.
I piloted Recross for a few weeks but talk about the feel bads... I always felt like I was committing a ton of energy to piles only to mess up the execution or have my opponent sculpt their hand for the perfect answer after I made a pile and passed. I found this playing the deck was incredibly draining. Maybe with some practice it wouldn't be so bad.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hello everyone! Yesterday I played Belcher in the Legacy Main event of MKM Series Milan 2017, piloting it to a 15th place finish with a result of 6-2.
The games were very Belcher-y (which of course means epic) and typical, so I will not go into too much detail here, since the main point is probably my list. But first, here are the matchups I faced:
R1 Merfolk 1-2
R2 Burn 2-1
R3 Miracles 2-0
R4 UB Reanimator 2-0
R5 Miralces 0-2
R6 Miracles 2-0
R7 Colorless Eldrazi 2-0
R8 ANT 2-1 (game loss for tardiness....oops XD )
This means 3-2 against decks with FoW in them, 3-0 against the rest, which seems about correct to me. The fact that I faced no Delver at all probably helped as well.
The list I played is largely based on the paper written by Trall (at least that is the user handle in MTGS, I believe I saw it on here as well), so I want to thank them first of all. I made some minor tweaks in parts where the paper seemed inconclusive to me, since there were some MD configurations that they did not test with the nifty algorithm.
MD
1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Manamorphose
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
2 Empty the Warrens
SB
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Pyroblast
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Pyroclasm
1 Trash for Treasure
1 Reverent Silence
The main point here is that I played 10 instead of 11 business spells, as per Trall's paper. I had no problems with this approach and I do not think I mulliganed more than is normal with this kind of deck.
The other noteworthy choices is the split of 2 Chrome Mox, 3 Manamorphose and 4 Pyretic Ritual. The background is that I really hate Chrome Mox; while I can appreciate that it is a permanent source of mana, it just feels incredibly clunky most of time I have it in hand. It also does not make mana by itself if drawn in the late game (everything after turn 2), since we are likely to have no colored cards in hand by that point! I was very happy with having only 2 of them, making room for the 4th Pyretic and the 2-3rd manamorphose.
Manamorphose was really good all day and I have no idea why people are not liking it. The key insight is that you can use it reliably to find mana, but not to find buisness, because of the respective ratios we play. Just don't keep hands that have no business, no matter how many cantrips you have, and you are good to go! I feel like people bashing on Manamoprhose are maybe prone to talking themselves into bad keeps with it, which in turn colors their perception of the card.
I was just happy about the free storm count and it even fixed my mana one time for a Burning Wish.
I'll admit that I have no real insight in regards to the 4th Pyretic, other than I had the mana I needed most of the time. It might be correct to just play the 4th Manamorphose instead.
Overall I was very happy with the list, it was a blast to play!
+1 this. I agree with this and wouldn't leave home with less than 4 of them. I play almost the same list as you.
Just to throw it out there and by no means do I think that this is strictly better than 1-land but when I wanna kick it old school I play this:
Land (2)
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
Artifact (14)
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
Creature (14)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
2 Tinder Wall
Instant (16)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Desperate Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Pyretic Ritual
Sorcery (14)
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Land Grant
2 Empty the Warrens
Sideboard
Wish targets and usual stuff
Happy Friday.
Street Wraith is a typo right? Gitaxian Probe seems to be strictly better as it gives you information about the opponents hand and increases your storm count. Other than that I also prefer the RG build with Manamorphose.
No it isn't a typo. It is a nod to the fact that you sometimes need black mana with chrome mox. Otherwise they both say pay 2 life draw a card. I do understand the differences between the 2. Also if I was going to an event tomorrow I would run a stock 1 land list instead. This was more of a fun old school list. But don't knock it because it is just as deadly.
Well that makes a lot of sense
WarpWorld, your list seems very interesting. Dark Ritual is obviously insane in the deck, but taking out Seething Songs to put in Dar Rituals seems weird, since it does not actually make us go higher (both make +2).
Also, the 2nd land seems terrible... I do already fizzle with Belcher somewhat regularly (might be bad luck) and raising that percentage seems just bad.
I wonder if it would be possible to build a deck that has Dark Rit but no Bayou? Numbers would obviously have to be tweaked, I'm guessing we would need more Moxen to have black mana somewhat regularly between Mox, Petal and Manamorphose... interesting, I might tinker with that idea.
Black mana isn't hard to come by. I have my share of bad beats and being on the wrong end of things but that is just the game we play. The second land can come up but most of the time you are going off with 1 land in the deck. It also means that the second land grant doesn't feel so bad. Most people also know to wasteland your taiga on sight because it is normally your only permanent mana source. Some food for thought.
-1 Bayou
- 2 cabal ritual
+1 chrome mox
+2 Seething Song
Something more like this? Not sure about the 3rd chrome mox.
That could be an interesting approach. I believe the 3rd Mox is probably correct in those lists, I will try to goldfish this list on cokcatrice/mtgo and see where it leads me.
Manamorphose - Still awful and always will be.
Street Wraith - See --> manamorphose.
Playing a second land - Only if you like fizzling more often.
There's a reason why old two land belcher moved to 1 land RG once enough red rituals were printed.
I don't think adding Dark Ritual really accomplishes that much at this juncture. Maybe if there were some way to fit Infernal Tutor into the mix, it'd be worth it, but I don't really like the idea of splitting our rituals between two colors. From what little testing I've done with TES (and keeping in mind that TES runs a lot more hand-sculpting than this deck does), that can be a problem. I also don't think it's a good idea to run cards like Street Wraith simply for the imprint capability. We need storm count more often than not; this deck isn't All Spells.
Speaking of Storm count, there's nothing wrong with double-Land Grant or double-Mox. A thing to keep in mind: a lot of people will try to Force the card that gets us to four mana, because that leaves us at our most vulnerable when we're most committed, yet before we can resolve Empty the Warrens. Playing, say, Rite, Desperate Ritual, and Chrome Mox (holding up another mana source) is a way to bait out countermagic without imprinting anything. (N.B.: this doesn't work with Land Grant for obvious reasons.) Either card, in the absence of countermagic, adds to our spell count without costing us anything, regardless of whether we aim to get mana out of it. Personally, I only run 3x Mox because we're already running twelve non-Mox artifacts, and a fourth one feels like too many. But we need initial sources, and Mox is more versatile than Spirit Guides.
Don't run a second land. There is no good reason to (more than) double your odds of fizzling on a Charbelcher, especially if you're only aiming to produce a color of mana the deck really doesn't need pre-Wish.
Manamorphose is mediocre. It's worth pointing out that most decks that have made it to the top brackets have run copies of the card. It's definitely the weakest maindeck card we have, but it's nice to have at least one extra way to make mana of any color we need, especially for Wish targets. I run one, but there's no reason two or three would be worse than a quad of Pyretics. People are overlooking two important aspects of the fact that it's a cantrip: on the plus side, it's one of the precious few ways to rebuild if we get Forced; but on the negative side, we need to throw initial sources at it, and we really can't count on finding what we want off of it. Don't count on finding mana; just as often you'll hit something you can't use (usually business, unfueled Mox, a redundant Land Grant, or a mistimed LED).
And to people who keep advocating for ten business spells, that's fine if you never want to win against a Force. Having backup business is crucial.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
We're back, boys.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ent-2017-04-24
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD27476S/
this list seems very interesting. thoughts? went 5-0 recently
That's a totally different deck named Spanish Inquisition.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...x-Storm-Combo)
Hi everyone,
I'm new to the Belcher archetype. I went from hating the deck to falling in love with it, and I had a really great time when piloting it for the first time a few days ago during a small Legacy tournament at my LGS. I managed to defeat Infect, and I did 3-0-1 (intentional draw when playing the mirror match). This deck is so much more than it looks from the outside. As a Burn pilot, I believe that aggro decks are way harder to master than any deck with resources such as library manipulation and/or card advantage. Perhaps one of the most difficult things about playing a deck such as Belcher is putting up with comments that refer to it as an 'easy deck' to pilot, or a 'cheap win' deck... on the other hand, there's no greater joy in Magic than defeating such opponents.
Therefore, I mean to keep learning about this deck, and I'm curious about whether the sideboard options for this deck will change now that Miracles is out of the picture. This is the sideboard list I'm currently running:
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Pyroblast
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Empty the Warrens
(textbook Belcher, right?)
@TheYoungPyromancer. Just because miracles is gone doesn't mean FOW is. But yeah your board looks fine. Uess there is something really crazy I don't see it changing to much.
@WarioMCP. It is always a good time to play belcher.
Playing Belcher at MKM Frankfurt
(This Report will not give new Metagame insight, nor will it show anything new about the deck. Foremost it will showcase the susceptibility against Force of Will. I just thought it was a nice idea to write up my experiences from the event.)
Not really.
Yes.
Due to the banning of Sensei’s Divining Top, my newly acquired Doomsday Deck was out the question for my trip to MKM Frankfurt. Having to vent a little bit I packed Burn to melt some faces and Belcher to have long breaks in between rounds. Among my friends we had the notion that the decline of Miracles should increase the number of Elves, while only slightly increasing the number of Delver and Deathblade. Diving into the unknown depths of a new metagame I played Belcher at the Grand Trial on Friday.
1:2 Deathblade
2:1 Aggro Loam
1:2 Elves
0:2 Grixis Delver [this guy got me into extra turns because he shuffled like a madman]
1:2 Elves
2:0 Deathblade
0:2 12-Post
My List was highly standard with these modifications: Burning Wish / 10 Wincons / 3 Pyretic 2 Chrome Mox
SB:
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Forest
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Bribery
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils of Agony
After the savage 2-5 beating I unsleeved my deck and wrote up a decklist for Burn. During Saturday I entered a 8-Player Single Elimination Side Event. I burned some people but wasn't really feeling good about it, so everybody on the table encouraged me to play combo once again.
Belcher it is.
Round 1: David with R/W Hatebears
I cast Gitaxian Probe and see: Pyrostatic Pillar, Deflecting Palm, Path to Exile, Scab-Clan Berserker. T1 18 Goblins put him to the test. And he scoops. Game 2 I am having no spell to take me from 1 to 3 Mana. His Boros Reckoner and Dryad Militant beat me to death. Game 3: 10 Goblins on T1 ride me to victory.
Round 2: Guillem with Grixis Delver
Game 1 my Landgrant gets Dazed. Then a Goblin Charbelcher Spell Pierced and at the very end something Force of Willed. Game 2 he is sitting on a Wasteland for 2 turns and then I blast him away with a Belcher. In Game 3 we both are doing our own stuff. He doesn’t have Counter Magic, I don’t have Xantid Swarm or Red Elemental Blast. After a couple of turns he has me down to 15 life with 2 Insectile Aberration on the board. I generate some mana with Land Grant, getting a Forest cast double Burning Wish with into Goblin War Strike and Empty the Warrens. 10 Goblins enter the Battlefield. I get swung by Delvers to 9, Deathrite Shaman enters the play. I mention to him my remaining Goblin War Strike and he shows me his hand. Lightning Bolt and Young Pyromancer. A single red source will win me the game. I slam the card onto the table. Manamorphose. We shake hands.
Round 3: Cedric with Grixis Delver
Game 1 he has the force.
Game 2 I go first and just say “Go”. He casts Death Rite Shaman and passes the turn. I draw some mana and go for it. Chrome Mox eats a Daze. My following Belcher eats Force of Will (he drew Force, 3x Daze, Underground Sea and a DRS).
Round 4: Justus with Storm
After having lost his deckbox and getting it back with the help of the head judge my opponent sits down and takes a Mulligan to 5. After playing a fetchland and says go. Using Gitaxian Probe I see Preordain, Lotus Petal, Gitaxian Probe and a Swamp. My 12 Goblins get the job done. Having seen the Preordain I put him on Storm. But sadly for him in Game 2 nothing is happening on his side. 10 Goblins on my side enter and beat him to 6. Desperately he casts Ad Nauseam and kills himself revealing Cabal Ritual and Past in Flames.
Round 5: Leon with Grixis Delver
Game 1: I cast Land Grant into Force of Will, but my hand is still intact and potentially lethal if I don’t hit the land. Lotus Petal gets Force of Will as well. Good Game.
Game 2: Same procedure.
Round 6: Nancy with D&T
My opponent is eating a sandwich when I arrive at the table and despite me telling her to continue eating at a regular pace, she just devours the thing and gulps the rest of her drink.
I go first and open the game with 10 Goblins. She puts down a Plains and is mentally checking her deck for an answer. She drops to ten and scoops it up.
Game 2: Plains. Go. T1 Belcher with lethal activation after the 20th card.
Legacy!
Round 7: Martin with Sneak and Show
Going first I jam a Goblin Charbelcher into a Force of Will. Tough life. After he sculpts his hand and resolves a Show and Tell I have gotten a new hand and try to Burning Wish into Bribery, getting our own Griselbrand out of his libary onto the battlefield. But my opponent does find a counter spell among 14 cards.
Game 2 holds nothing in particular. Counterspells, Sneak Attack and two red mana for Griselbrand and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.
Round 8: Simon with Dredge
I feel lucky and hold a mediocre hand. My opponent does the same. After three turns of Draw&Go a Land Grant powered Goblin Charbelcher shows him who is boss.
Belcher vs Dredge. Magic how Richard Garfield envisioned it.
In Game 2 he shreds my hand with Cabal Therapy, while his Zombies beat me to death.
Game 3 Turn 1 I slam a Belcher into play followed by a Lion’s Eye Diamond. After activation my opponent rubs his hands and I ask “Ready?”.
No matter how ready you are, a Belcher shot for 100 damage on T1 is something I will never get tired off.
Going out with a bang I opted to drop at 4-4 which gave me roughly 210th place (437 players) and drive home.
4 Wins against: R/W Hatebears, Storm, D&T, Dredge
4 Losses against: 3x Grixis Delver, Sneak&Show.
Despite the fact, that the deck gave me a 50% winrate, the (potential) T1 kill rate were quite good that day. I had an absolute blast playing this deck and can only recommend it for those who like fast rounds, long breaks, don’t care about losing to Force of Will.
And it's a deck for those who don't how to spell the words conservative playstyle.
Take care.
Last edited by muntah; 07-09-2017 at 02:57 PM.
@muntah sometimes it happens and I have my share of bad days. How are you boarding? Let us talk about post board games. I have been playing this deck for very long time and this seems like one topic that doesn't get discussed much.
Assuming they have FOW. Play / Draw can be kept in mind as you will do both in games 2 and 3.
Do you keep a 7 with turn 1 win potential but no protection or do you mull?
If you keep do you try and bait their counter spells out and take a slower approach hoping to draw protection?
Do you keep a hand with protection and no win condition?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote