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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

  1. #41
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    @ahg yeah maybe this was the wrong thread to post in. sorry if the consensus is that its spam i'll just delete my posts here. didnt feel developmental status yet. anyway, maybe this is just a bad storm deck, it could be horrible. as i said it's something i brewed up. it's an experiment, open your mind dawg. i brew decks all the time, sometimes they are crap sometimes there's an idea worth exploring. this one felt worth exploring so i decided to share. sleeve it up and try it out, i guarantee playing it is a much different experience than playing tes or ant. if i lost you when i started adding lands, i cannot understand you. the only reason not to run lands is for your wincon which doesn't want any. I stuck to wincons that don't care if you have lands in your deck (while keeping much of the traditional belcher shell intact and injecting it with steroids).

    as far as advantages over belcher, it has a ton more card advantage since it gets to use its mana sources more than once and it plays brainstorms and ponders (those 2 cards are better than any card in belcher). I've played belcher for years and one of the decks biggest weaknesses is not being able to cast the cards in your hand since you have no IMSs after your combo gets shut down. that was my inspiration for making this deck, while upping the power level by adding the brainstorm/fetch interaction. it can empty and still have a hand/lands leftover to work with if they answer your dudes. When it storms, it storms much bigger than belcher, when you make dudes its generally 16+ so far in testing. Also, I certainly did not take out the flagship kill of storm decks, there are 4 burning wishes that can get tendrils or a bunch of other sweet sorceries. in a deck with only red and blue mana you don't want to play maindeck tendrils even with morphos n petals.

    if ya'll are not into this being in your thread I understand and i'll remove it hastily, just let me know.

  2. #42

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    @walker, no worries dude, I wasn't calling your post spam. As a Belcher player, this just seemed so left field you were talking about another deck. I am far and away from a proper arbiter to say if something should stick or go.

    I agree that Belcher is a very fragile deck, probably the most fragile deck in Legacy. That consistency is traded for pure speed. I think that's something that every Belcher player acknowledges and accepts, for better or worst.

    As far as different, there's the article that describes playing with 2 Chrome Mox (something I'm trying right now, kinda sorta.) And another that doesn't play any land with Recross the Paths (something I'll try next most likely.)

    Belcher even looks like a glass cannon, if glass were colored like dingy brass.

  3. #43
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    @walker, no worries dude, I wasn't calling your post spam. As a Belcher player, this just seemed so left field you were talking about another deck. I am far and away from a proper arbiter to say if something should stick or go.

    I agree that Belcher is a very fragile deck, probably the most fragile deck in Legacy. That consistency is traded for pure speed. I think that's something that every Belcher player acknowledges and accepts, for better or worst.

    As far as different, there's the article that describes playing with 2 Chrome Mox (something I'm trying right now, kinda sorta.) And another that doesn't play any land with Recross the Paths (something I'll try next most likely.)

    Belcher even looks like a glass cannon, if glass were colored like dingy brass.
    I was looking at the Recross the Paths version, but by taking out Land Grants and Taiga you're down to 16 initial mana sources, and my opening hands weren't as consistent.

  4. #44
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Hi,


    I'm finishing assembling this deck and I plan to bring it to a small tournament soon.

    I've read this primer and must say I found it very well written and informative! Congratulations for feline for it!


    The main reason I'm posting, though, is to ask about some cards on the sideboard:


    1) Infernal Tutor:

    In what situations is he used?
    Isn't it a bit "unrealistic" to try to gather/spend 11 mana (B.Wish{2} + I.Tutor{2} + Belcher{4} + activation{3}) for it to work?
    Or am I missing something about it's use...?


    2) Leyline of Sanctity:

    Is this really good for us?
    Can't we fight discard "succesfully" with 1-3x Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library?
    Would one want to mull agressively after the Leylines, even if it means to waste some reasonable hands?


    Thanks for any enlightment,


    - André

  5. #45
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by andrebonotto View Post
    Hi,


    I'm finishing assembling this deck and I plan to bring it to a small tournament soon.

    I've read this primer and must say I found it very well written and informative! Congratulations for feline for it!


    The main reason I'm posting, though, is to ask about some cards on the sideboard:


    1) Infernal Tutor:

    In what situations is he used?
    Isn't it a bit "unrealistic" to try to gather/spend 11 mana (B.Wish{2} + I.Tutor{2} + Belcher{4} + activation{3}) for it to work?
    Or am I missing something about it's use...?


    2) Leyline of Sanctity:

    Is this really good for us?
    Can't we fight discard "succesfully" with 1-3x Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library?
    Would one want to mull agressively after the Leylines, even if it means to waste some reasonable hands?


    Thanks for any enlightment,


    - André
    11 mana is difficult, but not impossible.
    (ESG, Tinder Wall)/(SSG, Rite of Flame), Burning Wish, LED, LED, LED
    (ESG, Tinder Wall)/(SSG, Rite of Flame), Ritual, Seething Song, Burning Wish, LED, LED).

    If you have 8 mana, you can BW -> IT -> EtW for an extra storm. I'm sure I'm missing other uses, but that comes to mind immediately.

    I don't believe Leyline is what we want for a number of reasons, such as dead draws and bad mulliganing.

  6. #46
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    astormbrewing, are you officially pushing this deck now if I may ask? Or still in the "setting things up to play it at an open" process, if it can be called that. (testing/obtaining cards/"gauntleting" the format. Somewhere in that line, etc?)
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  7. #47
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by feline View Post
    astormbrewing, are you officially pushing this deck now if I may ask? Or still in the "setting things up to play it at an open" process, if it can be called that. (testing/obtaining cards/"gauntleting" the format. Somewhere in that line, etc?)
    I'm building Belcher and Burn right now. Will likely play Belcher at SCG Baltimore next month.

  8. #48
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Generating storm is really important and often relevant if you have to go for goblins. IT for empty is a solid play. For that alone IT is an auto include imo. IT for belcher is a good play when you have 3 mana from permanent sources to activate next turn. This happens more often post board with carpet of flowers and an extra land. I play IT and tendrils in my sideboard. wish -> IT -> wish -> tendrils costs 10 mana, 1 mana less than required to IT for belcher + activate. Generating enough storm requires a pretty hot hand unless they have already been damaged. Cantrips help that. Getting tendrils off in belcher doesn't happen super often, but it's memorable when it does. One time I got there because my opponent won the roll and opened with goblin guide. Of course Taiga is revealed and to my opponents surprise I draw the extra spell I needed to get exact mana and 10 storm for the t1 tendrils. I think it's worth the sideboard slot because it's a concise kill and gives double LED hands more potential. I could be wrong.. Anyone else play tendrils?

  9. #49

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    I currently do. It also is ideal to tutor for tendrils over belcher when you don't have taiga. And you don't have to have ten mana to tendrils, just most games.

  10. #50
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Thanks for the replies regarding my post.

    Indeed Infernal Tutor seems now interesting to me, because of the extra flexibility on storming/fetching kill conditions that it provides: besides other things, using it to find an EtW while generating more storm count was something that - for being a newbie with the deck - I was unaware of.

    Also, I think I will try to get a Tendrills of Agony and try it out as well, for I see that I need to explore all the interactions the deck could offer, in order to find the better play according to the circunstances during a game.

    (About the Leyline of Sanctity issue, yeah, I think I'll pass them for now and stick to the other tools that don't hinder our mulligans/draws too much.)


    One other question: at the game store where I intend to play the deck, there is a player who always plays with MUD. If I ever get paired against him, would this match up be an auto-loss for Belcher? How should I play it?

    (Would only 1x Shattering Spree and/or 1x Hull Breach on the SB be enough to have an actual chance against MUD?)
    Last edited by andrebonotto; 05-09-2013 at 09:28 AM.

  11. #51
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    MUD is not a good matchup, but it's far from an autoloss. I don't have a ton of experience with this matchup, but I'll share my thoughts. Obviously if you win the roll hopefully you can combo turn 1. If you have to pass the turn play out all your petals, LEDs and chrome moxes first to avoid chalice on 0 stopping you. If you are facing down a chalice you can still cast spells to generate storm and use spirit guides to generate mana. Trinisphere is annoying but seething songs cast from spirit guides can can power a belcher kill. It's definitely a tough match but if you're aware of how you need to play around their hate then you'll be able to make better mulligan decisions etc.

  12. #52

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmuant View Post
    Great primer! Excellent information.
    How do you feel about putting Recross the Paths in the Kill Conditions section? It seems like there's only one guy who runs Recross, which is too bad because it's a very sweet build. Maybe it could see more play and refinement if it's more prominently featured.
    Our playtesting group has been playing the Recross the Path version ever since we heard of it :)
    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    Man IDK, I don't write this bullshit. We all know WotC has some primo grass in its R&D Lair.

  13. #53
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by walker View Post
    MUD is not a good matchup, but it's far from an autoloss...
    Thanks for your tips.

    ...

    DECKBUILDING:


    I think I'll play the regular RG list with minor modifications:

    MD:
    -4x Manamorphose
    +4x Pyretic Ritual

    ...and, at the moment, this sideboard:

    Quote Originally Posted by SIDEBOARD:
    1x ETW
    1x Grapeshot (or in it's place maybe Pyroclasm, for I'm a little afraid of running into Canonists; and if by chance I happen to face the TES/ANT player, I could have a chance to kill his guys, if he goes the ETW route)
    1x Shattering Spree
    1x Reverent Silence
    4x Carpet of Flowers
    4x Autumn's Veil
    1x Forest
    1x Sylvain Library
    1x Mirri's Guile
    SIDEBOARDING AGAINST DIFFERENT MATCH UPS:

    I'm a little hesitant, though, regarding sideboarding. (I did read about this matter on the Primer, but since it assumes one is playing the stock version with Pyroblasts and Xantid Swarms, I'm not sure if sideboarding is exactly the same here...)

    1. Like, for instance, would you guys side in all 4xCarpet + 4xVeil against any decks running blue? Or only against specific ones - Which ones? What would you side out, then?
    2. Besides decks running discards, would you side in Library/Guile against any other decks? Which ones? What would you side out, then?
    3. And if you face Stoneblade or BUG, would you side in almost everything (4x Carpet, 4x Veil, Library, Guile)? What would you side out, then?
    4. (And, only to make sure, is there any situation on which you would side in the Forest, besides MU's running Wastelands?)


    ...

    When siding against blue, I'm tending to cut all the Pyretic Rituals (since they're redundant with Desperate Rituals) for Carpet of Flowers, and all the Seething Songs (since they need greater prior mana investment to do their jobs; and against blue, one does not want to commit his mana/cards "unwarranted") for Autumn's Veils. Or would it be better to take out the G.Probes instead of something?

    On siding out against discard, would it be better to cut two S.Songs, two P.Rituals, or one of each (to bring in Library/Guile)?
    I'm tending toward cutting two S.Songs, since if they disrupt my hand, the P.Rituals are easier to cast afterwards...

  14. #54
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    @andrebonotto- your sideboard inclinations seem good. Just practice until you feel comfortable and find what works for you. It will take some experimentation to create your sideboard/sideboard plans. I personally never side out probe, the information is very valuable.

    Autumn's Veil is garbage. It looks good on paper because it reminds you of silence... but it's far from silence since they can still cast Mindbreak Trap, the card that hoses you the hardest. I tried veil many times, and sometimes it's good, sometimes it's better than pyroblast, but the fact that it does nothing vs trap makes it too narrow. I learned the hard way and I swore I'd never play veil again. Pyro has the additional utility of killing problem blue permanents like jace, you can even gamble against a blind counterbalance in a desperate situation.

    I haven't tried guile, I play 2 sylvans in my sideboard. If anyone's tried guile I'd love to hear feedback for that card. I'm inclined to think the advantage drawing extra cards makes sylvan much better than guile. The extra mana seems negligable in most situations. If it resolves you can dig for whatever you need. If it's countered, it doesn't matter as much post board since you have forest and carpet to make more mana. In my experience sylvan often gets countered (which is one of it's main functions).

    Regarding shattering spree / reverent silence / hull breach- I took these out a long time ago because it's just too narrow. Having the cards to win is already tough, but burning mana + a wincon and having mana + another wincon leftover is really unlikely. Has anyone else come to this conclusion?

  15. #55

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by walker View Post
    I haven't tried guile, I play 2 sylvans in my sideboard. If anyone's tried guile I'd love to hear feedback for that card. I'm inclined to think the advantage drawing extra cards makes sylvan much better than guile. The extra mana seems negligable in most situations. If it resolves you can dig for whatever you need. If it's countered, it doesn't matter as much post board since you have forest and carpet to make more mana. In my experience sylvan often gets countered (which is one of it's main functions).

    Regarding shattering spree / reverent silence / hull breach- I took these out a long time ago because it's just too narrow. Having the cards to win is already tough, but burning mana + a wincon and having mana + another wincon leftover is really unlikely. Has anyone else come to this conclusion?
    I generally agree with you @walker.

    Regards to Guile v. Library- I play Guile due to not having Library, but the ability to draw extra cards is so much more important than being a mana less. While I would definitely not leave home with either Library > Guile. One would be hard pressed to find a reason why Guile would be better.

    The SB cards that aren't wincons- m'eh, it's a local metacall decision. I usually haven't used them, and sometimes they've just been the nuts. I played an Affinity player, who burped his hand faster, and walked into a shattering spree bonanza, that felt good, and should be considered "living the dream." But I would agree they're more trap cards than anything else. Maybe a pyroclasm/grapeshot, hull breach/Reverent Silence, and shattering spree, no more than a combination of those three, if that.

  16. #56

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    After more testing, this is what I am settling on (at least for now). This is my "WUBRG" Belcher list. I have made it to where the main functions optimally in terms of the first 7 cards with the goal of maximizing faster kills. This included cutting a wish (i draw too many multiples), a land grant (same), and adding grim monolith in there places, thus adding more odds of cantripping into a usable ramp spell. I also took these sorceries and put them in my modified wishboard, further optimizing my first 7. The extra wish in the side allows me to utilize double seething song hands and the like, where i cannot produce black mana, so i can still up my storm count when past in flames won't do it. Land grant allows me to keep awkward hands that can produce 5 mana and i have a wish and belcher/EtW. Not only does this enable these hands, but ups the storm count with etw and makes belcher auto kill on activation! The synergy is too good to pass up, along with smoothing out hands...I am surprised nobody has tried it before. Also, trash for treasure allows us to keep hands with wish, leds and belcher, as long as we have a mox or monolith (more synergy by adding these to the list). It is narrow, but it does turn an auto-mulligan into an auto-win. I have space for these because i don't like siding in a lot, i feel it hurts the decks consistency. I side in 3 xantid swarms and guttural response against blue on the draw, and guttural and 3 chancellor on the play. I prefer chancellor for the fact it doesn't use any other resources to use, also coming in handy when expecting turn 1 chalices or explosives, thoughtseizes and the like. Guttural is there to be a medium between play/draw as i only have the room for 1 card and i like that any mana source will cast it, optimizing effectiveness.



    Artifact: 18
    4x Chrome Mox
    4x Goblin Charbelcher
    2x Grim Monolith
    4x Lion's Eye Diamond
    4x Lotus Petal

    Creature: 12
    4x Elvish Spirit Guide
    4x Simian Spirit Guide
    4x Tinder Wall

    Instant: 12
    4x Desperate Ritual
    4x Pyretic Ritual
    4x Seething Song

    Land: 1
    1x Taiga

    Sorcery: 17
    3x Burning Wish
    3x Empty the Warrens
    4x Gitaxian Probe
    3x Land Grant
    4x Rite of Flame

    Side Board:
    1x Burning Wish
    3x Chancellor of the Annex
    1x Empty the Warrens
    1x Goblin War Strike
    1x Guttural Response
    1x Infernal Tutor
    1x Land Grant
    1x Past in Flames
    1x Tendrils of Agony
    1x Trash for Treasure
    3x Xantid Swarm

  17. #57
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Buckjunt View Post
    After more testing, this is what I am settling on (at least for now). This is my "WUBRG" Belcher list. I have made it to where the main functions optimally in terms of the first 7 cards with the goal of maximizing faster kills. This included cutting a wish (i draw too many multiples), a land grant (same), and adding grim monolith in there places, thus adding more odds of cantripping into a usable ramp spell. I also took these sorceries and put them in my modified wishboard, further optimizing my first 7. The extra wish in the side allows me to utilize double seething song hands and the like, where i cannot produce black mana, so i can still up my storm count when past in flames won't do it. Land grant allows me to keep awkward hands that can produce 5 mana and i have a wish and belcher/EtW. Not only does this enable these hands, but ups the storm count with etw and makes belcher auto kill on activation! The synergy is too good to pass up, along with smoothing out hands...I am surprised nobody has tried it before. Also, trash for treasure allows us to keep hands with wish, leds and belcher, as long as we have a mox or monolith (more synergy by adding these to the list). It is narrow, but it does turn an auto-mulligan into an auto-win. I have space for these because i don't like siding in a lot, i feel it hurts the decks consistency. I side in 3 xantid swarms and guttural response against blue on the draw, and guttural and 3 chancellor on the play. I prefer chancellor for the fact it doesn't use any other resources to use, also coming in handy when expecting turn 1 chalices or explosives, thoughtseizes and the like. Guttural is there to be a medium between play/draw as i only have the room for 1 card and i like that any mana source will cast it, optimizing effectiveness.



    Artifact: 18
    4x Chrome Mox
    4x Goblin Charbelcher
    2x Grim Monolith
    4x Lion's Eye Diamond
    4x Lotus Petal

    Creature: 12
    4x Elvish Spirit Guide
    4x Simian Spirit Guide
    4x Tinder Wall

    Instant: 12
    4x Desperate Ritual
    4x Pyretic Ritual
    4x Seething Song

    Land: 1
    1x Taiga

    Sorcery: 17
    3x Burning Wish
    3x Empty the Warrens
    4x Gitaxian Probe
    3x Land Grant
    4x Rite of Flame

    Side Board:
    1x Burning Wish
    3x Chancellor of the Annex
    1x Empty the Warrens
    1x Goblin War Strike
    1x Grapeshot
    1x Guttural Response
    1x Infernal Tutor
    1x Land Grant
    1x Past in Flames
    1x Trash for Treasure
    3x Xantid Swarm
    Your mainboard 60 is almost identical to what I'm playing, though I'm +1 Land Grant and -1 Chrome Mox. I could see having a Land Grant in the sideboard as being beneficial.

    Chancellor of the Annex is interesting, but I don't like it. I also don't see the point of Guttural Response when you can play Pyroblast. The fact that you can play Guttural with green mana seems less valuable than being able to (possibly) destroy a Counterbalance or Delver.

  18. #58

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by astormbrewing View Post
    Your mainboard 60 is almost identical to what I'm playing, though I'm +1 Land Grant and -1 Chrome Mox. I could see having a Land Grant in the sideboard as being beneficial.

    Chancellor of the Annex is interesting, but I don't like it. I also don't see the point of Guttural Response when you can play Pyroblast. The fact that you can play Guttural with green mana seems less valuable than being able to (possibly) destroy a Counterbalance or Delver.
    I have been on the fence on cutting a mox, but it is a hard source. Chancellor is a personal choice, I don't expect everyone to like it, but it works well for me. As for pyroblast, i have NEVER destroyed a counterbalance with one. Ever. Any time i would target it, counterbalance itself counters it. So i opted for the spell i could cast more reliably.

  19. #59
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    @ walker / ahg113 :


    Autumn's veil vs. Pyroblast:

    Interesting. I was not aware of this tricky MB Trap interaction, - i.e. that it can indeed 'counter' our spells disregarding of Autumn's Veil protection, by the fact that it is technically not countering, but exiling them.

    (Now I understand why someone was siding in Traps to 'counter' the Elfball player's Emrakul.)

    By the one hand, this makes me feel like playing the Pyroblasts. But, on the other hand, I assume that decks that would play Trap are not blue decks, since blue decks already have their protection against us. Thus, if not playing against a blue deck, I assume we would not side in the Veils/Pyroblasts, right? If it is the case, the Veil 'breach' to Traps could be considered quite non-relevant, right?

    (Or, on the contrary, after seeing Traps on G2 against any decks, it would be correct to side in Pyroblasts? How are your experiences on this matter?)


    Sylvan Library vs. Mirri's Guile:

    I guess you're right on this. I'll swap the Guile for the second Library, because of it's card drawing ability.

    Also, do you side in the Libraries against blue decks too, or only against discard?

  20. #60

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    I still advocate guttural response, it does what you want from pyroblast, but can be cast off of ESG

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