Griselbanned - Modern Edition

[Koby]

I feel odd asking a "how do I beat your deck?" question, but I am curious: If someone casts Slaughter Games, which is the best card for them to name? The obvious candidates are Griselbrand, Emrakul, Goryo's Vengeance, and Through the Breach.

It seems to me that if you don't have graveyard hate available (in which case you'd name Through the Breach, as your graveyard hate takes care of Goryo's Vengeance), the best choice would be Griselbrand, because he can actually win the game for you the turn he comes down with Fury of the Hordes, whereas Emrakul, while capable of destroying the opponent's game state, doesn't win the game by himself. Am I correct?

It's highly situational, but you hit the 4 important cards in the deck. You generally want to hit the creatures, and generally name Griselbrand; unless taking a hit from Emrakul is going to just wipe you out completely. Goryo's Vengeance is likely the last card you want to name, as it requires set-up with discarding. If the g/y already has Griselbrand, you may just want to name Griselbrand instead too.

[No_Life_No_Future]

In the version I play without Fury of the Horde Emrakul would be the correct name, however slaughter games is too slow. What deck are you playing the hate cards in? I have seen slaughter games come out of the board from tron, but honestly its pretty weak compared to their relic of progenitus and oblivion stones.

You have inspired me to make a rough list of the hate cards I have run into online.

Creatures:
Scavenging Ooze (Melira Pod, URg Twin, BG Rock)
Pestermite (Twin)
Deceiver of Exarch (Twin)
Vendilion Clique (Faeries, UWr, Twin)
Ethersworn Canonist (Pod, Death and Taxes)
Tidehollow Sculler (BW Tokens)
Sin Collector (Pod)
Entomber Exarch (Pod)
Thalia (Death and Taxes)
Gaddock Teeg (Pod)
Curse Catcher (Merfolk)

Counterspells:
Izzet Charm
Remand
Spell Snare
Spell Pierce
Dispell
Mana Leak
Cryptic Command
Counterflux
Pact of Negation
Disrupting Shoal

Discard:
Thoughtsieze
Inquisition of Kozilek
Raven's Crime

Other Instant/Sorcery:
Rakdos Charm (Burn)
Surgical Extraction (Mill)
Jund Charm (Living End)
Flames of the Blood Hand (Burn)
Skull Crack (Burn)
Slaughter Games

Artifacts:
Relic of Progenitus (Tron)
Oblivion Stone (Tron)
Grafdigger's Cage
Ensnaring Bridge (Mono Black Discard)
Tormod's Crypt
Nehil Spellbomb

Enchantments:
Rest in Peace (Uwr, Bw Tokens, Mono White)
Ghostly Prism
Sphere of Safety

Land:
Tech Edge
Bojuka bog

I probably missed some, but if you want to beat this deck play some of these cards and a fast clock.

[Lord Seth]

In the version I play without Fury of the Horde Emrakul would be the correct name, however slaughter games is too slow. What deck are you playing the hate cards in? I have seen slaughter games come out of the board from tron, but honestly its pretty weak compared to their relic of progenitus and oblivion stones.

I play Tron. And while admittedly Slaughter Games is a bit slow (no slower than Oblivion Stone, though), it hits Griselcannon significantly if you do get to cast it. And the 4x Pyroclasm 2x Spellskite maindeck have to be replaced with something, and Slaughter Games is a whole lot better than, say, Combust.

[movadomk5]

I adapted the list posted earlier utilizing a slightly slower combo but with more discard disruption and creeping tar pits. The tar pits have been pretty effective at getting people low so combining off is easier or simply finishing them off after going off mainly annihilating their board.

I also added Soul Spike since 1 I have a 40% black count and only 20% red and 2 it feels like a slightly less dead card then fury when I'm not going off. Also it can catch creature hate, clocks or parts of opposing combos.

// Deck: Grisel Spike (60)

// Lands
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Blood Crypt
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave

// Creatures
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

// Spells
4 Faithless Looting
4 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Izzet Charm
2 Pentad Prism
4 Serum Visions
3 Sleight of Hand
4 Soul Spike
4 Thoughtseize
4 Through the Breach

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Dispel
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Pyroclasm

Let me know what you guys think.

[capricorn]

Hey, would plunge into darkness with pull from eternity be worth doing in this deck? The idea being you have either goryo's vengeance or pull from enternity in your hand and then plunge for the other, while exiling a griselbrand or emrakul and then use pull from eternity to basically entomb it. Plunge also supports the normal kill too by getting you whatever piece you need to go off (faithless looting, creature, goryo's, through the breach).

I've been playing this deck for a while. Here are some changes I made and reasons for them.

Removed Pentad Prism and added Desperate Ritual. Too many times I draw cards and get Fury of the Horde, a red card and a Pentad Prism. Desperate Ritual pitches and ramps to Through the Breach when needed. It is a trade-off, but one I have opted to make.

To fix color and dig through the deck, I have attempted to add Manamorphose as it pitches to fury as well. It has also acted similar to a Tin Fins Lotus Petal and allowed me to replace one Emrakul, The Aeons Torn with a one-of Children of Korlis since Griselbrand kills for me and closes off the game much more often than Emrakul, The Aeons Torn I have opted to enable him more consistently.

I do like the Plunge into Darkness suggestion and since it could play well with Children of Korlis, I may give it a try.

I have thought about Infernal Tutor as I frequently end up hellbent wishing I could draw a Goryo's Vengeance but have not yet found the true motivation to include it. I went to Manamorphose instead.

[capricorn]

Just thought I would post my list to record as I do intend to make more changes.

// Creatures (11)
4 Griselbrand
3 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// Sorceries (8)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Fury of the Horde

// Instants (26)
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Izzet Charm
3 Peer Through Depths
2 Lightning Axe
1 Pact of Negation

// Lands (15)
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Temple of Malice

// Sideboard
2 Wear // Tear
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pact of Negation
2 Shatterstorm
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Blood Moon
1 Thoughtseize

Anyway, that is the list as I played it last night in a small 8-man. After seeing this list here ( http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/76559 ) I think I may find a way to make room for Ideas Unbound.

The list in the url looks questionable to me though as I wonder if there are enough red cards where Fury of the Horde is always easily active but since it placed in Top 4 out of 231 players my opinion is more suspect.

Personally, I have found such good use in Manamorphose, that I don't know if I would want to cut it.

Anyway, welcoming insights....

[Koby]

15 lands seems a bit greedy. I like 18 myself, because of Pentad Prism acting as 2->4 mana ramp across two turns.

[Fuzzy]

Hello everyone!

I'm going to play this deck on a PTQ this Sunday and I need some help. First of all, my decklist will be something like this:

4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Darkslick Shores
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Swamp

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Griselbrand
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Fury of the Horde
4 Izzet Charm
4 Faithless Looting
3 Pentad Prism
3 Peer Through Depths
3 Pact of Negation
1 Lightning Axe

Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Pact of Negation
2 Wear // Tear
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Defense Grid
3 Thoughtseize

Pacts are on MD because I just don't wanna scoop to Path, plus it adds consistence against shit like Remand or Pestermite.

My big concern is the red count. 21 cards is enough to not fizzle the double red requirement from Fury of the Horde?

[capricorn]

15 lands seems a bit greedy. I like 18 myself, because of Pentad Prism acting as 2->4 mana ramp across two turns.

It may seem greedy but in playing it, I was not short on mana. I was digging through the deck faster and able to find land anyway. My only challenge was in trying to determine color if needed.

Example:

land and simian spirit guide to desperate ritual to manamorphose

If i say 1 red, 1 black i could faithless into a goryo's vengence turn 1 but if I draw an izzet charm i am stalled.

I just was liking it over other choices as they all pitch to fury of the horde later on. These cards just seems to require more consideration in play timing. I also seem to be able to draw and dig fast enough to be able to use a combination of desperate rituals and simian spirit guides to cast through the breach. it is just harder to deal with a mana leak i think so i return to pact of negation.

[capricorn]

So for some background, I can (of course) only share my impressions and experiences.

I have been playing this deck for close to a year. Most recently I have been playing Tin-Fins in legacy as well. This is just a summary of some of what I have found strong and fragile across various builds of the deck.

Typically (or originally) I would see a lot of lists using Pentad Prism. While I did originally find this card useful in powering out an early Through the Breach I found that it was lackluster for 2 reasons. It had stronger interaction for the deck when using Thirst for Knowledge but was awkward if thirst was cast without a prism in hand and it was also awkward when drawing with Griselbrand would net me a Fury of the Horde and what would then become a useless Prism.

For the above mentioned reasons, I opted to play Desperate Ritual over the Prism. So this gave me red mana but not mana of any color which was a purpose served well by the Prism. I decided to try Manamorphose. This card functioned well enough and assisted with digging through the deck in such a way that I was able to see as many as 12 card in my first turn on the play. I seemed to get flooded and reduced the land count to the 15 shown previously.

I have since decided to refrain from playing any of the temples as I would rather cast faithless looting on turn 1 rather than scry and after that I do not want my lands to come into play tapped. For the second reason, I had also been trying to avoid the use of Boseiju, Who Shelters All. When I became open-minded enough to try it recently however, I have becaome a fan although I still think I only want one in the main.

I did recently try the previously listed version using Ideas Unbound but seemed to side it out first in all the games I have played.

So this weekend is GP Boston and I will be packing this deck. I have decided to add some versatility cards in the main for a better game 1 against what I anticipate as a majority (Pod, Twin and Kiki, Storm, Affinity and Cascade).

Keep in mind I am no pro but I will try to put some reasoning next to cards that I have not already described.

Considerations include:

1 - The main goal for me is to make as many things exile to Fury of the Horde as possible.
2 - Cutting Peer through Depths for 2 reasons. To cast it and watch Griselbrand go by is counter-productive. Also, see reason 1.



// Creatures (12)
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// Sorceries (9)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Fury of the Horde
1 Pyroclasm

// Instants (24)
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Izzet Charm
1 Lightning Axe
2 Pact of Negation
1 Wear // Tear

// Lands (15)
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
1 Island
1 Swamp

// Sideboard (15)
1 Wear // Tear
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Trickbind
1 Vapor Snag
1 Combust
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Blood Moon
1 Dismember
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Slaughter Pact

Anyway, that is what I have come up with for the time being. Sorry my other comment was so brief and non-descriptive. I was otherwise engaged.

Anyway, welcoming insights....

[capricorn]

Hello everyone!

I'm going to play this deck on a PTQ this Sunday and I need some help. First of all, my decklist will be something like this:

4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Darkslick Shores
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Swamp

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Griselbrand
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Fury of the Horde
4 Izzet Charm
4 Faithless Looting
3 Pentad Prism
3 Peer Through Depths
3 Pact of Negation
1 Lightning Axe

Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Pact of Negation
2 Wear // Tear
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Defense Grid
3 Thoughtseize

Pacts are on MD because I just don't wanna scoop to Path, plus it adds consistence against shit like Remand or Pestermite.

My big concern is the red count. 21 cards is enough to not fizzle the double red requirement from Fury of the Horde?

Please consider this (unless you have already done so).

For me, I could not successfully use City of Brass. The life was too much. I have stopped playing Thoughtseize for a similar reason.

Emrakul has not closed the game out for me nearly as often as Griselbrand but in order for Griselbrand to do his "job" I have to be able to draw cards and so my life total is incredibly important. I am not sure what City of Brass is doing that Gemstone Mine could not (aside from staying useful through a counterspell (especially remand) based deck. Have you noticed any difficulty in regards to that?

If the red count is a concern, then drawing the next seven may be that much more important.

[Fuzzy]

Please consider this (unless you have already done so).

For me, I could not successfully use City of Brass. The life was too much. I have stopped playing Thoughtseize for a similar reason.

Emrakul has not closed the game out for me nearly as often as Griselbrand but in order for Griselbrand to do his "job" I have to be able to draw cards and so my life total is incredibly important. I am not sure what City of Brass is doing that Gemstone Mine could not (aside from staying useful through a counterspell (especially remand) based deck. Have you noticed any difficulty in regards to that?

If the red count is a concern, then drawing the next seven may be that much more important.

First of all, thanks for the feedback.

I don't know about you, but my plan isn't run a long game. That being said, I believe CoB would deal less damage than, say, fetch into dual. I think it's just a bad Gemstone Mine, since I won't tap it more than three times.

Emrakul is probably the worst card in this deck. It's harder to setup, do nothing on it's own and sometimes can't even kill your opponent in one shot. I even think I should replace 2 copies for Time of Need, even that being a worst card.

About the red count, I don't know if I was clear enough: Should I replace something for more red cards? (Wild Guess, Lightning Axe and/or Desperate Ravings). Since I'm running all the Pacts I don't really want to fizzle for something stupid like this...

[DVloss]

Hello everyone, I'm a newer player to the competitive scene of magic and I thought i'd share my own decklist variant and results of my second fnm modern tournament.
As you'll notice the variant i play doesn't run some of the staples of other variants like fury of the hordesimian spirit guideor pentad prism
So without further ado this is my list i ran

Main Deck

4x faithless looting
4x goryo's vengeance
3x through the breach
4x sleight of hand
4x thoughtseize
4x izzet charm
1x lightning axe
1x echoing truth
4x snapcaster mage
4x griselbrand
4x emrakul, the aeons torn
3x blackcleave cliffs
3x darkslick shores
4x scalding tarn
4x gemstone mine
1x watery grave
1x blood crypt
2x steam vents
1x breeding pool
1x mountain
1x island
1x swamp

Sideboard
4x leyline of sanctity
2x abrupt decay
2x anger of the gods
1x boseiju, who shelters all
1x obzedat, ghost council
2x torpor orb
2x spellskite
(was panning on an ancient grudge but couldnt find one before the tourney started)

This deck aims to play in a more controlling and responsive way then the fury of the horde version does. Between a full set of thoughtseize,izzet charm,lightning axe,echoing truth and a full set of snapcaster mage this deck can interact frequently on the first couple of turns which is more of my preferred style.
Snapcaster Mage- was just an all-star in this deck between giving me value from the cheap instants and sorceries, applying pressure,finishing the last points of damage, or playing defense. I can't remember ever having it in my hand and being unhappy about it.
Lightning Axe- is i card i think would be good in this version as it gives me a couple more early plays to interact with and you can discard to faithless looting if the matchup doesnt call for it. also works well with snapcaster mage in that the opponent always has to realize that you can snap-axe. This is a tricky play for your opponent depending on turn and mana where he can counter this leaving your combo up next turn or letting it resolve which is fine as well
Sleight of hand- I just prefer this card for digging over similar spells like serum visions
Diabolic tutor- Now this is a card that i haven't played a lot with so i'm really testing this card. Since i'm not playing any ramp effects i don't need to hit a through the breach super early since i can't cast it until turn 5 anyway. The tutor acts as my 4th breach with the flexibility to find me one of my creatures if i already have a breach or a sideboard card if helpful. I also think it's alright because it costs 4 so i can play this on turn 4 to breach on the next turn without losing any tempo. This is also a card that i think can hedge a little against thoughtseize because if he takes a combo piece you can tutor up another one later if he doesnt have multiple dicards or if he takes the tutor it doesn't really hurt that much because you can't play it until turn 4 anyway and you might not need it at all

Now the fun part: Matches!

Round 1: vs Blue/White Coontrol

Game 1: This deck from the get go just seemed like it played 35 counterspells and 25 lands as it didn't really do anything although he did land an early meddling mage naming izzet charm because i discarded one to a faithless looting a turn earlier. He beat down with the mage and played draw go the whole time. I was able to build up my hand where i was able to force him to use a lot of resources in one turn by thoughtseizing, snapcaster- thoughtseize, another thoughtseize which the third one finally resolved. The turn after that i snapcaster thoughtseized again to finally clear the way for a griselbrand-vengeance combo on the turn, drawing 7 afterwards and passing. My life at 5 he couldn't get through with his mage and passed. I thoughtseized him again clearing the way for a breach emrakul to finish him off.

Sideboard:+ 1 boseiju, -1 breeding pool

Game 2: This game was my favorite game of the night. He played telepathy so i couldn't use any tricks. We played draw-go with a couple cantrips/lootings here and there until he tapped out for a drogskol reaver on his turn. I emrakul-breached him down to 3 life, one land, and the reaver left in play. I had a snapcaster, emrakul, lightning axe in my hand. goryo's vengeance in the graveyard. the next two turns he hit me twice with reaver, going back to 15 and having 3 lands untapped for the death blow next turn. i was at 6 life, drew my card and he said, "it doesn't matter i have an answer for it anyway". I drew a vengeance, Lightning axe'd his reaver discarding emrakul, casting goryo's vengeance in response to which he ever so happily dissolved. after his counterspell resolved i snapcaster-vengeance in response the the emrakul trigger and his face was just a mix between disbelief/shock/and anger. Record 1-0

Round 2: vs Blue Tron
My next opponent is a guy named Steve. We've been playing together before getting into competitive magic so we've played each other a lot with these decks

Game 1: He drew Tron naturally, got an oblivion stone out, got treasure mage into sundering titan and proceeded to smash my face easily

Sideboard: +1 Boseiju, +2 torpor orb, -1 breeding pool -1 lightning axe, -1 echoing truth

Game 2: He dropped 2 talismans early and a map. I had a thoughtsieze to clear the way for an emrakul- breach turn and finsihed him off with snapcaster beats a couple turns later

Game 3: He took some talisman damage early and got an early treasure mage once but i had an early faithless looting- emrakul- vengeance turn when he tapped out. One hit from a snapcaster a couple turns after finished him Record 2-0

Round 3: vs Storm

Game 1: I tried to dig as fast as possible under goblin electromancer beats but he comboe'd me off at 10 life.

Sideboard: +1 Anger of the gods, +4 Leyline, + Obzedat,+ 1 abrupt decay - 4 izzet charms, -1 lightning axe, -1 diabolic tutor, -1 echoing truth ( i'm not sure how good izzet charms are in this matchup? seems they can just ignore it pretty easily)

Game 2: I got a turn 2 obzedat in play and he couldn't do anything.

Game 3: He took 5 damage from his steam vents early and played blood moon turn 3 leaving me with basic island and 2 mountains. He was building up his hand as i got a couple more nonbasics in play. My hand at this point was 2 goryo vengeance,looting,snapcaster, emrakul, and griselbrand was in the yard. I drew my basic swamp, played it and passed. He probe'd me, saw my hand, and was forced to try to go off which he wasn't able to manage. Record 3-0

Round 4: vs Boros (a lot of burn)

Game 1: I thoughtseized first turn and saw boros reckoner, a bunch of burn, and thundermaw hellkite. I took reckoner as it provides a lot of pressure and i can't deal with it. He burned me hard the first couple of turns and dropped a reckoner on turn 3. I snap-thoughtseized his hellkite and emrakul- breached him later leaving him with just a reckoner and down to 8 as he played a lightning helix earlier. I went down to one chumping with snapcaster to live and i topdecked my echoing truth to save me. I double snapped the next two turns and finished him off with nothing in play.

Sideboard: +2 abrupt decay, +2 spellskite, - 4 thoughtseize

Game 2: I dropped a turn 2 spellskite and proceeded to play control throughout the game with using abrupt decay 4 times via snapcaster mage until i could finish him off with an emrakul- breach combo Record 4-0

Round 5: vs Infect

Game 1: He had no idea what the deck was so he shocked/ city of brass down to 15 and i emrakul-vengeanced him a turn before i was going to die

Sideboard: +2 spellskite, +2 abrupt decay, -1 diabolic tutor, -2 thoughtseize, -1 izzet charm

Game 2: he killed me on turn 2 by double groundswell mutagenic growth on his turn one glistener elf

Game 3: I played a turn 2 spellskite which he didn't have an answer for and had a turn 4 griselbrand combo which he scooped to. Record 5-0

All in all i came in second place behind a birthing pod player that had a better game record than i did but i'm excited that i did this well! If anyone has any comments, concerns, questions i'd love to hear them. I'm always open to improve my knowledge of the game and become a better player. Thanks for reading!

[capricorn]

So after a terrible performance at GP Boston, I came across this list thanks to Scotty Mac of "The Eh Team".

// Creatures (12)
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// Sorceries (8)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Fury of the Horde
4 Thoughtseize

// Instants (16)
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Lightning Axe
4 Lightning Bolt

// Artifacts (4)
4 Pentad Prism

// Lands (16)
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Blood Crypt
4 Marsh Flats
3 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine


// Sideboard (15)

3 Silence
3 Rakdos Charm
3 Not of this World
3 Pyroclasm
3 Duress

I started playing this build and have been impressed. Certain cards for certain reasons but fighting a Scavenging Ooze as often as I did, I can appreciate a deck with 8 maindeck answers.

Also, removal of the Blue has proved to be a big improvement and has justified the use of the Prisms for me again.

Anyway, this is the latest build I am playing. I will keep posted as events open up. So far, it has been absurd on trice. Silence against storm with Past in Flames on the stack and hitting back with Emrakul to take out the Pyromancer's Ascension has proved to be incredible.

What this build also allows that my previously played did not is an answer to a flashed in Pestermite, or the like, to tap down Emrakul, The Aeons Torn. The answer is Not of this world, which I used to like in Legacy as an answer to Karakas, here is also an answer to Path to Exile. Where I opted for Pact of Negation is the past to get the Goryo's Vengeance or Through the Breach to resolve, I can rely more on Duress and Silence now.

Anyway, this has been my most recent adaptation to the archetype.

The other cute thing I like, is that I can sit behind Marsh Flats, Godless Shrine and Swamp, play Thoughtseize, and have people assume I am on Black White tokens.

[Acclimation]

With the allied fetches becoming Modern legal, this deck gets much better mana. YAY!

But that's not this post is about. I'm wondering if scry lands are worth our time.

Taking this manabase:

4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Mountain
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Sulfur Falls

18 lands; 6 fetch, 3 basic, 3 shock, 3 check, 3 fast.

We want to keep at least 4 fetches and all of the shocks and basics, leaving us with 8 lands on the table to cut.

Let's run a quick cost/benefit analysis for each type of land:

Fastland (Blackcleave Cliffs)

Benefits:
Enters the battlefield untapped if we play it early

Costs:
Enters tapped if played as 4th land and on


Checklands (Catacomb/Dragonskull/Sulfur)

Benefits:
Plays nice with our fetches, shocks, and basics
Will usually enter untapped

Costs:
An opening hand with these as only lands or having mis-matched lands can lead to slow starts



Fetches (extra fetches)

Benefits:
Searches for the most relevant colors of land
Thins our deck
Can help to fight Blood Moon by getting basics
Enters untapped and can find lands that enter untapped

Costs:
Life loss can cause issues
Surgical/Needle can make life awkward


Scryland (Temple of Malice/Temple of Epiphany/Temple of Deceit)

Benefits:
Scry 1

Costs:
Enters tapped
Shuffling from fetches can undo scrys to the bottom

Common cons of these lands: vulnerable to Blood Moon and other nonbasic hate, can't be fetched by fetch lands. Most have an enter the battlefield tapped clause.

I feel like we could drop 2-4 lands for scrylands of equivalent color, specifically 1 fetch, 2-3 fast, and/or 1-2 check land. My reasoning is this- we have a deck that doesn't run as much card draw/filter/selection as we would like to, causing consistency issues. We rely on Faithless Looting, with usually 0-6 extra slots that can be devoted to Izzet Charm, Serum Visions, Slight of Hand, Spoils of the Vault, or Thirst for Knowledge. By adding 2-4 scrylands, we slow down the deck but gain extra filter for effectively free. This allows us to have either extra slots to devote to protection, whether it be Thoughtseize, Lightning Axe, or something else to slow down opposing decks, or get a maximum amount of filter for the deck. I propose cutting the Blackcleave Cliffs, since it provides the least utility, and t4 seems to be a common combo turn as is. I can also see cutting 1 fetch, since the shuffle can cause the bottom'ed cards to be reshuffled back into the deck, making the scry less valuable.

The question is, is can this deck afford to slow itself down an extra turn or two? I think that the extra filter is worth it, but I'm curious as to whether or not others agree with me.

[Koby]

I do agree that with the full complement of Sleight of Hand or Serum Visions (less preferred, as it takes a turn to get the card you want), you are more punished with additional shuffle effects from fetchlands. With these cantrips in mind, it makes sense to play scrylands between 1-3 copies. I would be very hesitant to include 4 however. I think the sweet spot might be 2 scrylands, and likely B/R and U/R, one of each in place of the Dragonskull Summit and a Blackcleave Cliffs.

While Blackcleave Cliffs are atrocious after the 3rd land, they provide early game mana at no drawback. If we're at the point where playing the 4th or 5th land becomes important, it usually means we've faltered a bit. The more reliance on non-Basic land types they decks gets, the less useful the check lands become.

I will likely be playing this set of lands in my updated build:

3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Drowned Catacomb
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 <flex>

And flex in most of my cases will be the 4th Blackcleave Cliff or Temple of Epiphany (U/R).

I am also considering modifying the build to run the full 4 Liliana of the Veil, as was featured by Gerry Thompson's article on SCG a few weeks ago:

4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
1 Quicksilver Amulet

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Faithless Looting
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize

6 Swamp
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Blood Crypt
2 Graven Cairns
4 Howltooth Hollow
1 Rakdos Carnarium
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse

I don't necessarily agree with the mana base (heavy swamp), but it's an interesting idea to utilize Liliana + feed into the card disadvantage then use Howltooth Hollow to enable more cheats of fatties.

[sumenismo]

What do you think about Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time in this deck? You think it'll provide consistency or is just too slow for the deck?

[YamiJoey]

I think Dig is impossible. Similar to Ascension, you need your Spells to cost 1, not 2. After that, you only really need to not exile Griselbrands from your Graveyard, so Delving isn't going to hurt.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I think Dig is impossible. Similar to Ascension, you need your Spells to cost 1, not 2. After that, you only really need to not exile Griselbrands from your Graveyard, so Delving isn't going to hurt.

I disagree. People were successfully running Ideas Unbound, Dig just does what that card wants to do but better. In hands that we don't have the early combo, DTT can make sure we get there on Turn 4, especially with the help of Gitaxian Probe or Manamorphose, as others have suggested using. Saying we want spells to cost 1 instead of 2 doesn't make sense when we have been utilizing Izzet Charm from the early days.

[Koby]

I'm going to be re-writing the intro soon. There's a lot I want to explore, and I don't think the list in the opening post captures the archetype fully. It's one facet of a Modern engine that is highly adaptable.

Pitch-spell Vengeance/(Griselbrand) is my proposed name for the archetype.