Griselbanned - Modern Edition

[TheyCallMeTim]

I'm going to be re-writing the intro soon. There's a lot I want to explore, and I don't think the list in the opening post captures the archetype fully. It's one facet of a Modern engine that is highly adaptable.

Pitch-spell Vengeance/(Griselbrand) is my proposed name for the archetype.

The changes made by Bob Huang and Zach Jesse are certainly interesting. I want to propose Lightning Storm over Borborygmos for discussion. It's significantly cheaper to cast during the combo phase, which I feel is more relevant than the few downsides.

Further, I'd also like to talk about my own take on the deck utilizing Torrent of Souls in place of Through the Breach. This allows a synergistic approach to reanimation, avoiding the clunky discards that occur with Through the Breach. Of course, being a sorcery, that means I can no longer run Emrakul (which many people have noted is a poor Plan B anyway). For this reason I chose Jin-Gitaxias as my Griselbrand 5-8. As a Goryo's Vengenace target in the opponent's end step it's a huge blowout, often turning on Plan A for the following turn. Anyway, here's my current list:

4 Griselbrand
4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Izzet Charm

4 Faithless Looting
4 Fury of the Horde
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Tormenting Voice
4 Torrent of Souls

3 Pentad Prism

1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Dragonskull Summit
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
1 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave

I'm currently testing sideboards including Gifts Ungiven packages.

[Valtrix]

The changes made by Bob Huang and Zach Jesse are certainly interesting. I want to propose Lightning Storm over Borborygmos for discussion. It's significantly cheaper to cast during the combo phase, which I feel is more relevant than the few downsides.

You want boryborygmos and it's not even close. First off, he pitches to nourishing shoal which is huge. Secondly, it gives you more things to put into play with goryo's and through the breach. Sometimes you get hands with multiple get into play effects and a Bory. I won a games in testing by going T4 Through the Breach -> Bory, T5 Goryo's Bory. Third, and most important: Getting Bory into play is trivial when you have Griselbrand out, which means there is no reason to run lightning storm. Two spirit guides give you the chance to splice a desperate ritual onto a nourishing shoal, then you can cast the desperate ritual to get four red, then you splice through the breach onto another nourishing shoal.

Been testing out the nourishing shoal version and it's extremely powerful, and shoal just by itself can actually be hugely powerful by buying you turns if you're trying to find that last piece to combo off.

I don't think Torrent of Souls is where you want to be. Through the Breach being instant speed is just so much better. You also really want ways to win outside of the GY since putting all your eggs into one basket can be a bad plan if they bring in any kind of GY hate. Jin-Gitaxias is a very bad choice right now given that all the red decks are playing Rending Volley to deal with twin, or decks have white and are already playing path to exile. In fact, the nourishing shoal version is in large part so powerful because it can do everything at instant speed. In particular splicing is very real for the deck, and all the instant shenanigans lets the deck stomp on blue decks pretty hard by comboing at their EOT and on their own turn. Don't forget shoal is a ritual for through the breach.

For reference, according to the deck tech (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/..._bob_huan.html) Bob Huang was 25-0 in games against non-infect decks on the day (and lost two rounds to infect), and another nourishing shoal deck made the top 8. The version is extremely powerful and I think people will have to watch out for in the weeks to come.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I don't think Torrent of Souls is where you want to be. Through the Breach being instant speed is just so much better. You also really want ways to win outside of the GY since putting all your eggs into one basket can be a bad plan if they bring in any kind of GY hate. Jin-Gitaxias is a very bad choice right now given that all the red decks are playing Rending Volley to deal with twin, or decks have white and are already playing path to exile.

All good points, I'm just actively trying to address the deck's weaknesses. Namely the clunky route to Plan A and its Plan B. Firstly, how often have you found it incredibly frustrating that you couldn't discard a fatty in the early game while searching for either Goryo's or Breach? The split strategy might be useful against hate but it seems from my experience that the lack of synergy is more relevant. At least Noxious Revival partially addresses this. Secondly, all too often I had dumped my hand to make an Emrakrul and lost the game anyway. The Worldspine Wurm is definitely a better card for avoiding that but unfortunately it only works with 1 half of the combo (not Legendary). Obviously it's the best card at the moment to run with Nourishing Shoal, otherwise I would say that it's just a compromise relative to Emrakul (trading more consistent 15 damage for 30ish damage half of the time). Ideally the extra life mitigates that.

Overall, the GP list is a very strong development for the deck but it clearly has issues. It's only my aim to have a logical discussion about the card selection. I have been piloting this deck from its infancy (including my own brews before the introduction of Fury of the Horde) and have seen it take multiple leaps in the right direction. If the community feels the Huang list is the best 58-60, so be it. We'll have to wait until WotC inadvertently prints better cards for us. But that won't stop me from looking for new things to test.

PS: Last night I finished 3-1 with my list in a local. Lost to an Abzan Company deck that got really lucky hitting Anafenza, the Foremost. Round 4 against Burn I won game 1 via Jin-Git and game 3 with Griz. Hadn't seen any Rending Volley but I don't mind if he wants to board a card that only hits my Plan B. This is merely anecdotal, certainly the Charlotte GP results are more meaningful. Which is precisely why I picked up a bunch of Worldspine Wurms with my prize money! ;)

[Kathal]

All good points, I'm just actively trying to address the deck's weaknesses. Namely the clunky route to Plan A and its Plan B. Firstly, how often have you found it incredibly frustrating that you couldn't discard a fatty in the early game while searching for either Goryo's or Breach? The split strategy might be useful against hate but it seems from my experience that the lack of synergy is more relevant. At least Noxious Revival partially addresses this. Secondly, all too often I had dumped my hand to make an Emrakrul and lost the game anyway. The Worldspine Wurm is definitely a better card for avoiding that but unfortunately it only works with 1 half of the combo (not Legendary). Obviously it's the best card at the moment to run with Nourishing Shoal, otherwise I would say that it's just a compromise relative to Emrakul (trading more consistent 15 damage for 30ish damage half of the time). Ideally the extra life mitigates that.

Overall, the GP list is a very strong development for the deck but it clearly has issues. It's only my aim to have a logical discussion about the card selection. I have been piloting this deck from its infancy (including my own brews before the introduction of Fury of the Horde) and have seen it take multiple leaps in the right direction. If the community feels the Huang list is the best 58-60, so be it. We'll have to wait until WotC inadvertently prints better cards for us. But that won't stop me from looking for new things to test.

PS: Last night I finished 3-1 with my list in a local. Lost to an Abzan Company deck that got really lucky hitting Anafenza, the Foremost. Round 4 against Burn I won game 1 via Jin-Git and game 3 with Griz. Hadn't seen any Rending Volley but I don't mind if he wants to board a card that only hits my Plan B. This is merely anecdotal, certainly the Charlotte GP results are more meaningful. Which is precisely why I picked up a bunch of Worldspine Wurms with my prize money! ;)

As somebody who plays some form of Griselbanned/Goryo's Vengeance/Instant Reanimator since last year August and actively developed the Shoal version and helped to make it public, I want to say some things:

First, the reason why the Shoal version is so strong is, that you have the option of winning with Instant speed. This is huge in a format, where such a thing "shouldn't" exist. Most opponents feel absolutely save to tap out at your endstep (especially Twin players) just do die in response on whatever they wanted to do. I win like 60% of my games with Instant speed, simply because I have to do it (opponent is tapped out, Path is targeting Griselbrand, opponent combos off/threads to kill you). Sure, reanimating Griselbrand should be most of the time enough, but by taking the instant speed kill option away your Twin match-up is horrible ("nice Griselbrand you have there, it would be a shame if something would happen to it (aka Pestermite/Exarch/Path)")

The thing with the "split strategy" saved my ass so many times. Of course it feels awkward when you pitched a Griselbrand and then you are drawing a Through the Breach, but being able to play around Graveyard hate (Relics and Oozes are quite common in the format) is huge. Furthermore, since the uprising in Graveyard decks (like this one) or in general decks which rely on the graveyard (Grixis Control/Delver) you can expect more graveyard hate (especially Nihil Spellbomb). So you need at least post board a Plan B and I don't want to play crappy cards like Torrent of Souls main deck.

The reason, why we are running Worldspine Wurm is simply because of Shoal, since it is the most useful creature for this specific purpose (gaining 11 life and killing the opponent in 1 max 2 swings). The good thing is, that he leaves the tokens, which should be the biggest creatures on the battlefield, which have trample too. Furthermore, his costs are nearly perfect (something like 12 or 13 would have even been better), since it allows you to draw 28 cards when you are at 18 with only 1 Shoal. Everything below is meh at best. And yeah, I'm sad that I can't play with Emrakuls, but you simply don't need them/don't have the space for them (you could run a 1off MD with Time of Need as tutor).

The splicing is HUGE in this deck. Being able to play around Counters is awesome, also being able to generate a ton of mana is also nice (went from 0 floating to 15R once to be able to pay for the Pacts (Hive Mind from my opp)). I can't say how often I just won by splicing Rituals/Goryo's/TTB on Shoals/Ritual to be able to play around something.

Furthermore, Borbor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lightning Storm because a) he can be pitched to Shoal when you need the life/you are bricking otherwise b) is a creature which can be TTB/Goryo's AND has a huge trample body which can win games by its own (I won several games where I hardcasted Borbor). Also, if Lightning Storm gets discarded, you don't have a way to combo off with instant speed (exception is a second one or you are running Noxious Revival), where you can pitch Borbor to Looting without a problem.

From its playstile you can compare it with Tin Fins, since when we have an active Griselbrand, we win like 80% of the games immediately (in some we brick, or we want to play around something), but it still should be enough to kill the opponent next turn. It feels like Tin Fins when you are playing it and you can also make some awesome tricks.

Greetings,
Kathal

PS: Either way, try Temple of Malice as a 4 off. It provides you with another Turn 1 play and the scry is surprisingly relevant. I was sceptic first, but now I love them.

[TheyCallMeTim]

As somebody who plays some form of Griselbanned/Goryo's Vengeance/Instant Reanimator since last year August and actively developed the Shoal version and helped to make it public, I want to say some things:

...Also, if Lightning Storm gets discarded, you don't have a way to combo off with instant speed (exception is a second one or you are running Noxious Revival), where you can pitch Borbor to Looting without a problem.

PS: Either way, try Temple of Malice as a 4 off. It provides you with another Turn 1 play and the scry is surprisingly relevant. I was sceptic first, but now I love them.

Thank you for the constructive points. I nearly have the Shoal version completely assembled now and will begin testing. I do want to point out though, in addition to the other issues, that this current build can't discard Borg at instant speed. Whereas I would run 2x Lightning Storm plus the aforementioned Revival. Nonetheless, you guys with actual practical experience with this build are most likely correct and I will find out exactly how relevant Borg is over Lighting Storm.

Ironically, I was also sceptical of the scry lands but will try them too.

[Valtrix]

You don't need to discard Bory at instant speed. If you're comboing off with Griselbrand at instant speed you just use Through the Breach to get Bory into play, then use him to finish up. Getting enough mana when you have basically your whole deck is pretty trivial.

The scry lands are great. They're quite easy to fit into your spell sequence (turn three scry land + night's whisper for example) and give the deck that little extra push in consistency it needs. Often you can you play them without disrupting the spell sequencing you were planning anyway, and even in cases where it does put you back you don't need to develop a board presence like other decks because when you go off you'll probably just win on the spot.

[Griselpuff]

Minor correction:

I'm 27-4 in sanctioned matches with 3 losses to Infect and 1 to Abzan Company. I was something like 25-0 vs. non-infect decks at the point of the video.

Deck is bonkers. Only reason it might not get banned would be because people start playing the right hate cards (Teeg, Needle, Surgical, Deflecting Palm and Suppression Field).

[TheyCallMeTim]

Deck is bonkers. Only reason it might not get banned would be because people start playing the right hate cards (Teeg, Needle, Surgical, Deflecting Palm and Suppression Field).

Agreed. I ran your 60 in a local tonight and though I only went 2-2 (blame lack of piloting experience and running into turn 2 RIP in back to back games) the deck is obviously strong. The question I have is whether you think it can survive the next banning announcement? I would like to get some more time playing the deck before losing the $400+ dollars invested. Hopefully WotC lets the format correct itself rather than putting the hammer down, which, admittedly, I highly doubt...

[Valtrix]

My concern is that you mentioned "the right hate," but even for the list you mentioned none of that hate completely stops the deck. If somebody needles griselbrand, you can through the breach wurm into play and be fine. Similarly with suppression field. Deflecting palm can help stop an attack, but does nothing against the instant speed win--Bory can just discard lands again in response to the palm cast. Graveyard hate only attacks half of the deck, as breach is a very real option. Discard into surgical is nice, but not a surefire way to win either (can't hit more than half the fatties, wurm doesn't even hit the yard). Blue decks are also likely to struggle against an instant speed win combo as EOT go for combo -> combo is very powerful, and in general the counterspells in Modern are not fantastic so, especially post board, you can probably overwhelm them (or just use Boseiju).

I'm just not seeing how decks will be able to, in general, pressure this deck fast enough before just losing, especially since the hate they bring might not even be useful against the hand you've drawn to combo off. We'll see how things shape up in the future, but after researching the deck more I fully expect it to be a major force in modern in the time to come. (Potentially ban-worthy, but I don't like to jump to conclusions.)

And while Infect might be a terrible matchup for the deck, but if that's the case a simple splash for Melira, Sylvok Outcast might be enough to shore up that matchup pretty handily.

Alas, if only we had Containment Priest for modern! Would be pretty great vs. the Collected Company and Chord decks too.

[Kathal]

My concern is that you mentioned "the right hate," but even for the list you mentioned none of that hate completely stops the deck. If somebody needles griselbrand, you can through the breach wurm into play and be fine. Similarly with suppression field. Deflecting palm can help stop an attack, but does nothing against the instant speed win--Bory can just discard lands again in response to the palm cast. Graveyard hate only attacks half of the deck, as breach is a very real option. Discard into surgical is nice, but not a surefire way to win either (can't hit more than half the fatties, wurm doesn't even hit the yard). Blue decks are also likely to struggle against an instant speed win combo as EOT go for combo -> combo is very powerful, and in general the counterspells in Modern are not fantastic so, especially post board, you can probably overwhelm them (or just use Boseiju).

I'm just not seeing how decks will be able to, in general, pressure this deck fast enough before just losing, especially since the hate they bring might not even be useful against the hand you've drawn to combo off. We'll see how things shape up in the future, but after researching the deck more I fully expect it to be a major force in modern in the time to come. (Potentially ban-worthy, but I don't like to jump to conclusions.)

And while Infect might be a terrible matchup for the deck, but if that's the case a simple splash for Melira, Sylvok Outcast might be enough to shore up that matchup pretty handily.

Alas, if only we had Containment Priest for modern! Would be pretty great vs. the Collected Company and Chord decks too.

Just a small correction, Wurm does hit the Graveyard, it's shuffle back is a trigger and not a replacement effect. This is pretty important since otherwise he wouldn't generate any tokens.

The thing is (at least for me), that I accepted that Infect is just a bad match-up and just skipped the SB hate. I don't want to play 4 cards in my SB which only helps against Infect (Melira), when I want Moons, Decays (in the Jund version), Lightning Axes (in the straight BR), Bosejiu and co. If I want something which helps against Infect and also has some use in other match-ups, I would run Chalice (as Pomegrant does atm). It helps also against Burn and some other match-ups (ADN Combo, Amulet Bloom (but you want Moon there instead). The nice thing is, that the Infect metagame share is declining since February, which helped to come to this decision.

One of the hardest match-up, beside Infect and Affinity, is RUG Delver with Shoals. They have a fast clock and free counter spells + a 1 mana Negate in Stubborn Denial. Most other match-ups have either a "fast" hand, or interaction where we either just can race or we can grind through it. Our ace here is Bosejiu, which enables TTB Wurms, which is more than enough against that deck. Griselbrand is most of the times not enough, since they can counter the Shoals (at least the first one), so we need to hit at least 2 Shoals/Wurms in around 14 draws (with an attack, I just assumed for now, that we went into the combo on Turn 3).

A deck like GW Hatebears is surprisingly a difficult match-up, since they have interaction with Thalia, Tegg and co and have a reasonable fast clock (compared to BGx/Grixis). Furthermore, they can play Rest in Peace in their SBs, which is huge in the current meta ("everyone" has decide to play with those new graveyard based cards (from Command to the Delve stuff), or want to run Snapcaster, Oozes and/or Goyf in their decks, and so they can't play something like RIP, since they also relay on the graveyard). But than again, we can just kill them on turn 2, to play "around" those cards.

Oh, and all who are saying, that Soul Sister is a rather difficult match-up for the deck, I have to decline here. The plan here isn't to Grisel into Borbor kill them, but to TTB several Wurms into play. You just have to grind through their lifegain this way. Ofc, a reanimated Borbor to get rid of all creatures is nice, but not necessary.

The deck is good, but not ban worthy, the same was with Amulet Bloom. For myself, I would run this piece in Copenhagen and if there would be another high end finish (very likely) I would switch deck for GP Singapore (cause the metagame needs around 1-2 weeks to "adjust" to something new, Modern is much faster than Legacy in adjusting to a new threat).

Greetings,
Kathal

[TheyCallMeTim]

What does the group think about Bob's sideboard? Is this the best 15 for that list?

4 Blood Moon
1 Lightning Axe
3 Pact of Negation
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Pyroclasm
2 Shatterstorm
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

[Valtrix]

I don't understand the pact of negations. Given that the deck can almost never pay for them (not going to count on manamorphose), I can imagine that they are only useful against counterspells. However, if this is the case, why not just play more Boseiju? (Probably not 4, but at least more than 1.)

[TheyCallMeTim]

I don't understand the pact of negations. Given that the deck can almost never pay for them (not going to count on manamorphose), I can imagine that they are only useful against counterspells. However, if this is the case, why not just play more Boseiju? (Probably not 4, but at least more than 1.)

You can also win on the upkeep with the trigger on the stack...