Griselbanned - Modern Edition

[movadomk5]

Koby what's your plan and sb strategy against zoo and infect?

[Koby]

Vs Zoo, EE and Firespout can help slow Zoo down while you try to reanimate Emrakul to stabilze for a few more turns.

Vs Infect, Ancient Grudge to kill off some of the dorks. Otherwise, it's just a race. Izzet Charm is really good in this matchup for all three modes.

[seamonkeyman]

Last night I was tested quite a few games vs. Zoo (Experiment One version with KotR at the top end of the curve, no Tribal Flames) I was using a list very similar to the OP list, all of the games were pre-board. I won 70-80% of them.
They goldfish on T4 or T5, while we are most times much faster than that.
Since they have to bolt themselves for every Dual that was fetched, Emrakul would usually win with one swing.

While I agree with Koby that EE and Firespout would be good against them, I don't think we need that much hate for Zoo - without Counters we're just a faster combo deck than they are.

Fairies on the other hand has been terrible for me in testing. Counterspells plus a clock mixed with some discard is very difficult.

Obviously there will be some cards to bring in vs. Zoo, but don't pack your board for it.

[movadomk5]

Here's my current build Acclimation:

// Deck: Griselcannon (60)

// Lands
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
1 Breeding Pool
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave

// Creatures
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// Instants
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Izzet Charm
4 Through the Breach

// Sorceries
4 Faithless Looting
4 Fury of the Horde
4 Sleight of Hand
2 Thoughtseize

// Artifacts
3 Pentad Prism

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Firespout
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Vandalblast

Breeding pool should be a stomping ground with the importance on red I just haven't picked one up yet. Also, not sure if the option for abrupts are really worth it but could help with firespout.

[Acclimation]

Here's my current build Acclimation:

-sir not appearing in this post-

Breeding pool should be a stomping ground with the importance on red I just haven't picked one up yet. Also, not sure if the option for abrupts are really worth it but could help with firespout.

Looks solid to me. How often did you mulligan, and what were your requirements to keep a specific hand?

[movadomk5]

Oddly I haven't had to mulligan much (prob just luck) except when knowingly going up against tribal flames zoo (which I still need to do better testing against)

I generally look between having a fatty/engine, dig and the rest mana with hopefully a prism or guide. My first goal is to go with breach on t3 hopefully with proper ramp but if I feel the window is open for goryo's I switch gears. I would say treat it similar to t3 win Tin Fins hands for comparison where you would be targeting yourself with discard spells but instead using looting effects. If i can't go off on t2 with Grisel I tend to just go off on the next opponents EoT so I can have my turn to dig via spells or Grisel.

A simple Emmy swing wins most games due to shocks and fetches along with getting them to commit permanents to the board. I have been finding myself getting them to 5 or less then hard casting a guide and swinging over 2 turns then going for the Grisel + Fury wins.

Edit: To add I love how I loaded up Holy Grail into my computer, saw you replied and then saw the reference in your post!!!

[Acclimation]

Oddly I haven't had to mulligan much (prob just luck) except when knowingly going up against tribal flames zoo (which I still need to do better testing against)

I generally look between having a fatty/engine, dig and the rest mana with hopefully a prism or guide. My first goal is to go with breach on t3 hopefully with proper ramp but if I feel the window is open for goryo's I switch gears. I would say treat it similar to t3 win Tin Fins hands for comparison where you would be targeting yourself with discard spells but instead using looting effects. If i can't go off on t2 with Grisel I tend to just go off on the next opponents EoT so I can have my turn to dig via spells or Grisel.

A simple Emmy swing wins most games due to shocks and fetches along with getting them to commit permanents to the board. I have been finding myself getting them to 5 or less then hard casting a guide and swinging over 2 turns then going for the Grisel + Fury wins.

Edit: To add I love how I loaded up Holy Grail into my computer, saw you replied and then saw the reference in your post!!!

Good info.

Great timing on my part!

[Koby]

I started to keep track of matchups that I face on MTGO. Played and recorded (stats, not videos) of about 8 matches so far. Only two losses: Zoo & Merfolk -- any guesses why? :)

[seamonkeyman]

My guesses:
Zoo - inconsistenty got you. They goldfish fast, if you stumble they will get you.
Merfolk - Probably one of the worst matchups since they have cheap counters and a clock. If they land an early Vial, and then the cursecatcher with a lord they can provide enough pressure to end the game quickly while keeping counter mana up.

6-2 is a great record though. What were your wins against and any insight from those matches?

[Koby]

Vs Zoo, indeed was a race between the deck's (in)consistency vs Zoo's speed. If you skip a beat you're get clocked. EE for 1 seems to help, as does Firespout.

Vs. Merfolk, I managed to win a quick G1; then G2 I'm about to close out the game with Emrakul when my opponent Vial's in Phantasmal Image as the 7th permanent... G3, Mutavaults clock me while he's got Mana Leak mana up.

A large majority of the matches are against UR/x Twin and Tempo decks. They seem pretty easy to beat with Thoughtseize and timing vs their tapping out.

[seamonkeyman]

Why do you have 2/1 split of clasm/firespout?
When is Pryroclasm better than Firespout?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Koby]

Why do you have 2/1 split of clasm/firespout?
When is Pryroclasm better than Firespout?

When DRS was around, Pyroclasm made much more sense. Now, Firespout is better as it kills a majority of Zoo's creatures. I swapped the numbers on the two. Pyroclasm is still useful vs Pod & Affinity. I've updated the OP with my most recently tested SB. Included is also the 2 Defense Grid which have been testing extremely well vs Blue decks. It often draws a counterspell, or if resolves, compltely invalidates them.

[kingsey]

Long time legacy player here. I'm thinking of entering the format and this would be my deck of choice. Question has anyone tried a red and black list and try to run blood moon MD? Or are the options the other colors give that impressive.?

Also instead of fury of the horde has anyone used fling or the red card that gives double strike ? They both only cast 1 and can be cast easily off of a spirit guide.

[Lord Seth]

Long time legacy player here. I'm thinking of entering the format and this would be my deck of choice. Question has anyone tried a red and black list and try to run blood moon MD? Or are the options the other colors give that impressive.?

Also instead of fury of the horde has anyone used fling or the red card that gives double strike ? They both only cast 1 and can be cast easily off of a spirit guide.

Well actually, Fling costs 2, but never mind that.

The big issue with the double strike card is pretty simple: It's extraordinarily vulnerable to chump blocking. This is less of a problem with Emrakul (because Annihilator has a good chance of taking out any blockers), but if you're going off with Griselbrand, you don't have that advantage. A single Bitterblossom token renders Assault Strobe useless. If you cast it on Griselbrand and swing into a token, you gain 7 life... and then Griselbrand doesn't deal regular damage because there's nothing to deal it to. In other words, if they can chump block Griselbrand, then Assault Strobe literally doesn't do anything at all; you still gain 7 life, their creature still dies, and that's it. Fury of the Horde, on the other hand, lets you untap and attack again, this time (hopefully) with no chump blockers. You can't use Assault Strobe to take an extra combat step.

Additionally, if you don't have an Assault Strobe when you attack with Griselbrand, you can't get any benefit from it. Griselbrand attacking gains you 7 life, meaning you can draw 7 extra cards, giving you a much higher chance of drawing Fury of the Horde. If you draw that after attacking, it does something. If you draw Assault Strobe after attacking, it does nothing.

As for Fling, it's a little better in that it has a purpose after attacking. And it's certainly very powerful with Emrakul, letting you hit for another 15 damage. But again, it's far less powerful with Griselbrand. Fury of the Hordes is just the better option--not only can it be used multiple times, when you use it, you gain 7 life from the damage Griselbrand inflicts. That's not true for Fling.

[kingsey]

Anyone with input on a more R/B list with blood moon main?

The items have started to arrive i'm looking forward to playing this deck

[No_Life_No_Future]

I have been grinding with this deck on MTGO and it is pretty good.

Bad Match-ups:
Twin, Faeries, Merfolk

Mediocre Match-ups:
Pod, Uwr, BG Rock

Good Matchups:
Affinity, Burn, Storm, Scapeshift, Tron, Zoo, Boogles, Monogreen Devotion, Adnausem/Angel's Grace, Crackclan Ironworks, BW tokens, Soul Sisters... etc

I won 15 qps in 3 days (Force of Will promo) on MTGO by playing modern 8-mans and daily events with this list:

Lands(20):
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Gemtstone Mine
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Breeding Pool
1 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
2 Swamp

Cantrips(12):
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Faithless Looting

Disruption(13):
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Izzet Charm

Combo(19):
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
3 Pentad Prism

Sideboard(15):
2 Pyroclasm
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ancient Grudge

I listened to the advice you guys gave and I tried Pentad Prism. I originally had dismissed it because it is a dead card and I try to avoid card disadvantage because I am not playing the all-in combo version (Fury of the Horde), but I have to admit it has been working really well. It makes Through the Breach a full 2 turns faster and allows you to play around tech edge. It enables you to play around remand in the early game (recast goryo's). I was wrong about it and now that I tried it I am convinced that 3 copies are mandatory in the maindeck.

The cards I feel are weakest in the deck are:
3 Inquisition
If only cabal therapy were legal..... I prefer this over duress because of Twin and Pod. This card is great, but you can't use it on yourself and you cant hit cryptic. Other than that there have been so many games where I have cast it turn 1 to nail a backbreaking 2-3 drop (Scavenging Ooze, Rest in Peace, Deceiver of Exarch, Pestermite). It is great to have cards that are 1cc disruption after an animated griselbrand. Ex. 1st Turn faithless looting discard Griselbrand. 2nd Turn Goryo's Griselbrand, into inquisition/thoughtseize game over.
Or 1st and second turn sculpt your hand with cantrips while disrupting them with thoughtsieze/inquisition and then turn 3 faithless looting into goryo's on emrakul drop tarpit GG.

2 Izzet Charm
It is really hard on the manabase and with so many cantrips its hard to leave up the mana for it. Its draw discard is card disadvantage and expensive. Many times I would much rather have Pyroclasm and then maybe I could open up some more board slots. It can hit ooze(situational) or cannonist but it just too slow. The one thing that this has going for it is that it is versatile.


Cards to Test for the sideboard:
Spellskite
Torpor Orb
Trickbind
Pithing Needle

Some questions for you guys:
Is my manabase optimal? (2 or 3 tarpit? 1 boseiju main? # of lands? color of duals? # of ETBT >3 lands?)
Are there any other cards I should test?

[Koby]

Interesting. You definitely lose out on the ability to win games all in one turn. Perhaps you can talk about some of the lines of play you were making with the deck to give us a better feel for how it plays?

[No_Life_No_Future]

Interesting. You definitely lose out on the ability to win games all in one turn. Perhaps you can talk about some of the lines of play you were making with the deck to give us a better feel for how it plays?

How the deck plays depends a lot on the matchup and the situation, but I will try to generalize. The deck usually tries to create a dominating position on turn 3. Here are some possible scenarios:


Turn 2 Griselbrand via Goryo's Vengeance (The Nuts):

An ideal situation is one where you have Faithless Looting and Griselbrand in your opening hand and 2 non ETBT lands. If I only have Faithless Looting and no Griselbrand then I usually hold it in hand until turn 3 so that I can have the 2 mana open for Goryo's Vengeance on Emrakul in response to its trigger. If you are on the play a turn 1 Faithless Looting turn 2 Goryo's Vengeance is great as the opponent has very few ways to interact (Thoughtseize, Inquisition, Spellsnare, Spellpierce, Dispel, Grafdigger's cage, Disrupting Shoal...thats about it). On the draw postboard I would usually opt for a turn 1 Thoughtsieze or Inquisition of Kozilek over faithless looting (depends on matchup). Always lead with Inquisition over Thoughsieze, because Thoughtseize is more flexible and can be used to target yourself. Leading with discard spells allows you to avoid situations like T1 Faithless looting discarding Griselbrand T2 Opponent plays Rest in Peace...sigh. If you know what your opponent is playing and you know they can't interact or you have mulliganed into oblivion and you feel it is worth the risk, you can thoughtsieze yourself turn 1 to setup a turn 2 Goryo's Vengeance on Griselbrand.


Once you have Griselbrand in play on turn 2 attack. Pretty much the only card that is commonly played that interacts is path to exile (sometimes celestial purge from the board). If they path fine... Draw 7 and get a swamp, if not they take 7 you draw 7. Now you have 11-12 cards in hand. If your hand doesn't do anything then depending on the matchup you may want to draw another 7, but this is rare (beware that drawing multiple Emrakul is awkward because you usually want to keep Griselbrands and Faithless Lootings in your graveyard). Now since you have no mana you must discard down to 7. You want to keep the cards that lead to you putting in another creature, preferably an Emrakul, as soon as possible. If you can discard a Griselbrand this is a nice setup play for Goryo's Vengence. You may want to keep 2-3 lands in hand so that you have the option to Through the Breach later. Keep the lands that match your color requirements and that don't come into play tapped on turn 4-5. At this point you can usually finish the game within the next 2-3 turns by disrupting the opponent with Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize and getting an Emrakul onto the battlefield via Through the Breach often enabled by Pentad Prism or Goryo's Veneance enabled by Faithless Looting, Thoughtsieze, Izzet Charm.


Turn 3 Emrakul (The Second Nuts)
This play is usually set up in 2 ways. Faithless Looting or Thoughtsieze discarding Emrakul and responding to the trigger with Goryo's Vengeance or 2nd turn Pentad Prism into 3rd Turn Through the Breach. Once Emrakul is on the battlefield the only common way your oppoent can interact is with Pestermite, Deceiver of Exarch, and Cryptic Command. This will normally leave your opponent without permanents. Their lifetotal after an emrakul swing depends on thier manabase. If they are not already dead one Creeping tar pit can usually finish the game.
Ex. Turn 1 UB Land into Thoughtsieze/Inquisition
Turn 2 Creeping Tarpit into second Thoughtsieze/Inquisition or Serum Visions/Sleight of Hand
Turn 3 RB Land into Faithless Looting, Goryo's Vengeance on Emrakul
Turn 4 play land activate Tarpit FTW

Most of my wins involve cheating an Emrakul into play.

A Couple of Tricks:
-Against counter spells it is sometimes best to try to Through the Breach/Goryo's Vengeance on their end step and then when they tap out to counter it you try again on your turn.
-Goryo's Vengeance on Griselbrand is often a good removal spell that draws you 7 cards. Sometimes the opponent will even be afraid to attack into the possibility of it being reanimated.
-Sometimes you may wan't to wait a turn before putting in Emrakul so that you can annihilate a few more permanents. (depends on matchup).

To summarize, the deck often establishes its combo on turn 2-3 and finishes the game on turn 4-5.
Common Wins include:
Turn 2-3 Griselbrand into 4-5 Emrakul.
Turn 3-4 Emrakul into a turn 4-5 Creeping Tarpit
Turn 2-3 Griselbrand into 3-4 Griselbrand into 4-5 Tarpit

[FTW]

The big issue with the double strike card is pretty simple: It's extraordinarily vulnerable to chump blocking. This is less of a problem with Emrakul

There is a much bigger problem with Emrakul, though, in that Emrakul has protection from colored spells... so Fury vs Strobe is irrelevant.

Fling, however, is quite good with Emrakul. But when you're going off with Emrakul, you won't be drawing 21 cards to find 2 spirit guides to generate the extra mana to cast Fling.

[Lord Seth]

I feel odd asking a "how do I beat your deck?" question, but I am curious: If someone casts Slaughter Games, which is the best card for them to name? The obvious candidates are Griselbrand, Emrakul, Goryo's Vengeance, and Through the Breach.

It seems to me that if you don't have graveyard hate available (in which case you'd name Through the Breach, as your graveyard hate takes care of Goryo's Vengeance), the best choice would be Griselbrand, because he can actually win the game for you the turn he comes down with Fury of the Hordes, whereas Emrakul, while capable of destroying the opponent's game state, doesn't win the game by himself. Am I correct?