I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Just because of the 3 toughness, therefore able to survive Punishing Fires, BUT I think Goblin Guide's speed is worth a shot too. And because he can just fearlessly attack agains any 2/* of the format (surprise Snapcasters, Thalia's First Strike, and so on), sometimes I feel Guide dies maybe too soon - But I agree Guide's speed supports the sligh zoo's quick approach to the race.
As for the Fourth qasali, it might be a good one, I was actually in doubt of what to do in this case due to using 2 Wear//Tear in the sideboard.
Oh yeah, also, debating between that single Lightning Helix vs Boros Charm. The option of extra control + hp, vs extra finisher/ double tarmo swing.
Yeah, there are a fair number of 2/x creatures being played now. I guess it's just a matter of testing, but my guess is that haste will outweigh the extra toughness though. You can hold a Guide to essentially act as a shock when needed, but Ape is never a surprise. Also Guide is never a 1/1.
Maybe I'm nuts, but I'd like to test Lightning Mauler in Sligh Zoo at some point. Giving every guy that hits the board haste seems rad, but the 1 toughness is probably too much of a liability right now.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Played Zoo at a local tournament last night.
Round 1 I lost to merfolk, I didn't realize just how badly TNN swings this one.
Round 2 I beat Patriot Delver, which was comforting, since it is such a popular deck at larger tournaments.
Round 3 I lost to MUD, 1 game was chalice on 1 until I draw Qasali, but by then it is too late and he has platinum emperion. G2 I get him to 4 and he kuldothas for blightsteel (he already had lightning greaves). I have never really felt like this was a great matchup.
Round 4: Lost to Team Italia. Lingering Souls is quite good here, and he also had lightning helix. I flooded pretty badly in G1 and G3 as well.
All in all: I really wanted to play against death and taxes and lands, but oh well.
I would think if you are playing black you would want some number of abrupt decay ( replacing path?) esp with no pridemages main. It is more expensive but it mostly fills the same role but with more flexibility.
Also is your deck really red enough to need all of your duals to produce red? Varying your dual base would make the mana significanly more flexible.
@ ajfennewald
I tested the deck further and it, in its current form, folds to Miracles. I became dejected and took the cards apart for Legacy Jund (boring) and Modern Domain Zoo (awesome).
Nonetheless, I still retain the deck has potential.
I do believe that some number of mainboard (2-4) QPM (Replacing Kird Ape) to battle equipment and some number of Abrupt Decay to battle counterbalance are desirable, although I'm not convinced cutting PtE is the best choice.
Perhaps adding SB 3x Gaddock Teeg for the Miracles mathchup, too.
As for the list I'd posted, the assortment of red duals plays just fine considering half of the deck hinges on having red available. The redundancy of duals aids in battling Wasteland decks. It is an adopted manabase from http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10423&iddeck=76017 .
I believe the list could go two ways: including QPM and Abrupt Decay, which would demand a diversification of the mana base (-2 badlands, -1 plateau, -1 taiga, +1 bayou, +1 scrubland, +1 savannah)
OR
Pushing the deck further into "Dark Sligh" with the inclusion of Fireblast and the like.
Here's my latest list:
Lands: 22
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
3 Basics
3 Wasteland
Creatures: 26
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
Other: 12
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard: 15
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Skullcrack
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
I'm still toying with the board for the current meta, but that's where it's at for now. I'm really liking the GCR's so far, and with 4 Spirits MD I think cutting down to 2 Thalia is fine. I'm not sure I'm missing Ooze a whole lot either.
I'm still undefeated against combo (lulz) and control can be quite annoying. GCR helps get them into burn range along with additional skullcracks to kill their jaces out of the board.
The only decks I feel completely overwhelmed by are lands and burn. If I don't play a thalia/jitte turn 2 or get an STP to buy me a turn or two then it's just GG which seems awful imho.
Respectfully, Loxodon Smiter is really weak and I think it is outrageous to even consider playing a full play set!
I concur that the mere idea of playing Thalia and Spirit is quite attractive and even looks good on paper but for Zoo it really isn't. Playing four (4) Spirits is enough and Thalia is not required. I never liked Thalia in Zoo anyways as the lack of synergy with playing a lot of burn and removal spells just undermines the decks tempo and speed too much.
Speaking of speed, if Zoo is going have any chance of making a come back in legacy it will no doubt be on the back of an extremely aggressive sligh like strategy; like fast Zoo if you will. Simply put, if you want to play "Big Zoo" go play Maverick. If you want to play Thalia, Swords to Plowshares and Wasteland than go play Death & Taxes.
Indeed, to have a reasonable chance at beating combo and other powerful control decks you have to be extremely fast and aggressive right out of the gate. This means Goblin Guide is a must for this strategy. Therefore, if you're playing GG then you have to dispense with playing Thalia.
Playing an aggressive strategy to keep up with the ridiculously fast combo decks that are out there means using burn spells and not undermining that damage you’re dealing by giving them life back with STP. Path to Exile has to be the removal spell of choice and even though I hate giving them a land as much as anyone, it is clearly the lesser of two evils given Zoo's underlying strategy that it needs to take right now in the present metegame to have any kind of success. Look on the bright side; Canadian Threshold and Team America don't even play any basics so PTE has no down side at all in some matchups like those ones. Therefore, playing GG and PTE dictate that both Wasteland and Thalia are cut from Zoo.
Now onto the real reason why Zoo may have potential to see some play in legacy again, Spirit of the Labyrinth.
Spirit breaths new life into a dead deck so playing four (4) of these exceptional hate bears main deck is a must right now for any Zoo deck trying to make a comeback given the present legacy metagame. This card has potential to do some serious damage to some top cards in the top decks right now as I already have articulated and attempted to convey in the Spirit of the Labyrinth forum. For ease of reference I shall re-post the pertinent part below:
So which cards/ strategies are hated by this card:
- Brainstorm (Hymn myself) -> 80% of the format
- Sorcery speed cantrips -> Blue control
- Sensei's Divining Top -> Miracles
- Griselbrand -> Sneak&Show, Reanimator
- Enter the Infinite -> Omnitell
- Sylvan Library -> Jund, Maverick, Team America
- Carefull Study, Faithless Looting etc -> Dredge, Reanimator
- Glimpse of Nature, Elvish Visionairy -> Elves
Finally, I steadfastly believe that 2 for 1 power creatures is no longer good enough and 3 for 1 power is now the standard for the aggro legacy format (i.e. Nimble Mongoose and Delver of Secrets). Therefore, cards like Kird Ape and Loam Lion must fail to make the cut. Goblin Guide is the exception because of his speed and ability to attack right away. Furthermore, he always has 2 power no matter what, whereas the ape and lion can be at 1 power from time-to-time.
The 2 cc drops of Goyf, Pridemage and Spirit fill the void for that mana curve. The 1 drop locks have to be Wild Nacatl, Goblin Guide and Grim Lavamancer (2-3).
I think in attempt to get three (3) or more power creature for a one (1) casting cost will call for a bold exploration and play testing into cards like Vexing Devil, Experiment One, Hidden Herd and Steppe Lynx.
Most experienced Zoo players say "well, I hope to get 4 damage out of GG and he will have served his purpose". Well Vexing Devil gets that 4 damage which your opponent will inevitably take at the beginning of the game all the time every time. After that, getting or even top decking a 4/3 is even better then Nacatl. In any event, with POP right now being off the chain that is a potential for a voluminous amount of cheap early damage.
I only like Experiment One with Burning-Tree Emissary and all the 2 cc creature spots are filled with a mix of Goyf, Spirit and Pridemage.
Steppe Lynx with twelve (12) fetch lands and Sylvan Library can be somewhat consistent and the four (4) damage attacks early against control and especially combo can be huge and game determining in the long run. Yes Lynx is weak against aggro but other aggro decks in the format are already a favourable matchups for Zoo and what is keeping this deck off the legacy radar right now, amongst other things, is not enough damage early to kill combo fast enough because 2 for 1 power is manifestly too slow.
Hidden Herd lacks synergy with POP and is a horrible top deck. That being said, some people swear by them.
I just purchased my foil play set of Spirit of the Labyrinth and cannot wait to sleeve them up and continue to play test and play in local tournaments, testing Zoo in the present metagame. Hopefully it goes well so I will be persuaded enough to opt to play it at Star City Seattle Open and can take the Beta Lighting Bolts out of my Canadian Threshold deck to put back into a Zoo build (with foil spirits of course)!
Last edited by Demonic_Attorney; 03-09-2014 at 06:16 PM.
To be the man, you gotta beat the man!
I've been trying to find an acceptable Zoo list in these past few weeks, and I couldn't find anything better than Experiment One/Burning-Tree Emissary. The lack of synergy with Qasali Pridemage made me cut them, but I really miss those kitties.
Could you share your list with Spirits?
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
I apologize for the double post, but I've been testing a list and I wanted to share. Pretty much brewed something along the lines Demonic_Attorney was talking about.
The list:
Lands [20]
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Mountain
Creatures [26]
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Goblin Guide
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Grim Lavamancer
Spells [14]
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
3 Price of Progress
Sideboard [15]
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pithing Needle
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
Maindeck is pretty fast, and Price of Progress is nuts against all these greedy manabases in the top tiers (UWR Delver, Team America, Canadian Thresh, Deathblade, Jund). Death and Taxes is a good matchup as well, it really depends on burning that Mom ASAP and keep Stoneforge's equipment at bay (pretty easy post-board). Spirit of the Labyrinth has been awesome, he's a must-target against any blue deck, saving our other critters from removal. I've also had a pretty funny moment against Sneak and Show: he tapped out to SnT Griselbrand against my SoL, and couldn't draw off Griselbrand, then his dude just got Pathed and he didn't have FoW, nor could cantrip into more business. Awesome.
Regarding the sideboard, I've been pretty unhappy with REBs and Relics. REB was just a guarantee against True-Name Nemesis, but I can usually race them, and if they're not equipped and not attacking, that gives me time to find my burn to reach those last few life points. Relics have been pretty useless. The only Dredge player in my area is myself, and Reanimator is pretty underrepresented as well. I usually board against GW Maverick and ANT, but I might be switching it to Surgical Extraction.
Still, good to see Zoo being average (to say the least) again. I miss those times.
Any advice or comments?
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
So the SCG Invitational is around the corner and I just qualified. Since this will be my last legacy event for a long time I want to go back to my roots. I played Zoo for years when it was still good, and I'm hoping that now is a good time to bring it back. The below list is like a compilation of the input that I've read in this thread. I've still very undecided on the sideboard, but any inputs on the deck is much appreciated.
4 Goblin Guide
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Spirit of Labyrinth
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pride Mage
2 Grim lavamancer
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price to Progress
4 Chain Lightning
3 Path to Exile
2 Fireblast
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plataea
1 Forest
1 Mountain
SB
3 Mindbreak trap
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Red elemental blast
2 Wear/Tear
1 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
So here's an updated list that's been okay for me recently, still having some sideboard issues:
Lands: 21
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
3 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Wasteland
Creatures: 25
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Loxodon Smiter
Other: 14
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
So for my board I know I'd like the following slots:
Combo:
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Thalia
1-2 Krosan Grip
But now what for control/TNN decks?
I have been playing nothing but Zoo for the past 2 months and I am having the most fun I've had playing magic in a while. I went to both SCG Detroit and SCG Cincy and top'd 64. Still working on some changes to make it better. But here are results from both tournaments. Im going to SCG Indy at the end of the month also. I feel this deck is well positioned right now since everyone is playing anti combo decks.
SCG Detroit 5-3
1. vs RWU Delver (L 1-2) - Couldn't find answer to Batterskull games 2/3.
2. vs Miracles (W 2-0)
3. vs Merfolk (W 2-0)
4. vs Elves (L 0-2) - Turn 3 kill both games.
5. vs Punishing Jund (W 2-1)
6. vs Dredge (W 2-0)
7. vs RUG (L 0-2) - Mulled to 5 both games.
8. vs Affinity (W 2-0)
SCG Cincy 6-3
1. vs Miracles (W 2-0)
2. vs Merfolk (L 1-2) - Lost game 3 to mana flood.
3. vs Punishing Jund (2-0)
4. vs Jund (L 1-2) - Kept one landers both games :).
5. vs Miracles (W 2-0)
6. vs Shardless BUG (W 2-0)
7. vs Elves (L 0-2) - Turn 3/4 kill.
8. vs Reanimator (W 2-0)
9. vs ANT (W 2-0) - Killed himself game 1. Mindbreak trapped him game 2.
My list is basically the RG aggro list from Modern. How I battle through TNN/SFM is never stop applying pressure. Sometimes I have to 2 for 1 myself to trade for Batterskull. But zoo is so much more efficient than UW that they have issues keeping up. Here are most things play out.
Turn 1
Me: Fetch (Taiga), Kird Ape
You: Flooded Strand (Tundra)
Turn 2:
Me; Fetch (Plateua) Goblin Guide, Wild Nacatl: attack 4 (OPP 16)
You: Tundra, SFM (Batterskull) (OPP 15)
Turn 3:
Me: Land (any), Bolt (SFM): Attack (Opp 9): Goyf/Scavenging Ooze
At this point I could care less if buy opponent plays TNN because I have 4 creatures on board. If I have goyf he has to perm block him and take 7 down to 2. If I play anything anything he still takes 6-7 down to 2-3 which puts him in range of any top deck of bolt, chain lightning or price of progress. Not to include fetch lands and force of will are now dead cards. Only issue I have is getting mana flooded some games and keeping 1 landers because they look so good. Even though the deck has a bunch of 1 drops if you miss the next 2 land drops you may have lost. The deck has to apply pressure the first 3 turns of the game to win. Thinking of testing Vexing Devil because he is 4 damage for 1 mana.
Why I used the Modern list?
This deck doesn't work in modern because Kitchen Finks halts the deck. The card alone kills 3 cards, fortunately for us Kitchen Finks is bad in Legacy. Also Anger of the Gods kills the deck, but no one in legacy plays that.
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